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Darkness vs Oath(Oath flame Tsuyoshi Sawada vs Yami Sukehiro)

I see

I think that may or may not be a big deal, especially if Yami has the CQC advantage. Although, AP wise, they're still effectively equalized for the purposes of this battle. But it means Tsuna can't ever amp himself to a point where he could one-shot or blitz Yami, at the very least.

Also, doesn't Yami have a stamina advantage here? At least, what is stated in the profiles seems to suggest this to an extent.
 
It's arguable on the stamina advantage, but I'd give it to Yami, because as of low 6-B Tsuna can't fire that many XX-burners out without tiring himself out.Though, Tsuna is no stamina-slouch and he's capable of absorbing yami's energy by grabbing his sword or himself.
 
We're using the first oath-flame tsuna key which is low 6-B, likely higher

As the OP I can't vote so I'll just list the win-conditions here

Tsuna:

Absorb Yami's power enough to win through superior stats.(Not easy unless, verse-equalization mana=dying will flames is a thing because he has to get close)

Seal Yami using zero point breakthrough-first edition.(This wincon is difficult as he needs to get in close to do it)

Yami:

Use his superior close-combat skills to get in close and try to end the fight using his superior CQC.(Tsuna possesses superior midair mobility(Tsuna can fly, yami can walk on air)so this won't be easy.)

Make the fight a fight of attrition and keep tsuna from absorbing his power.(This win-con is difficult because if verse-equalization is a thing than tsuna can absorb his attacks long-range, and can get in close and absorb his power.)

If tsuna can't absorb his power than, the fight leans in Yami's favor, if he can than it's in Tsuna's favor.
 
Perhaps you meant sealing using Zero Point Breakthrough: First Edition? Because in the abilities section, this is the ability that is stated to have sealing properties.
 
Anyhow, I conclude that this is inconclusive as well, as it is plausible that the battle could go either way, and I do not see how Tsuna can force a reliable strategy to absorb Yami's power or seal him with any more or less likelihood than Yami can force a battle of attrition. All the winning conditions are difficult to achieve.
 
"Use his superior close-combat skills to get in close and try to end the fight using his superior CQC."

What the heck kinda feats does Yami have to say he has superior CQC? Tsuna's a top 4-6 CQC fighter in his verse, which is full of CQC gods.

As far as stamina goes, Tsuna's not shown to tire out quickly after firing an X Burner epecially after Future arc. Maybe XX-Burner is different, but even then, he used two XX Burners in 1 day and still showed no signs of fatigue when using Oath Flame after going through two fights.

And his stamina shouldn't be any less than Dino and Hibari who could fight for 24 hours straight.
 
It's because Tsuna's intelligence section isn't as buff, isn't it?I think when his profile was made, intelligence sections weren't really utilized as much, tbh, and no CRT since then has been focused on updating it. So it's rather lacking by today's standards.
 
@MindControl

I guess I'm a bit curious. Squalo has comparable experience to Yami, if not more. And likely more varied in terms of those who fight with pure swordsmanship. What is your philosophy when it comes to characters that defeat those with more experience than they? Is that something you would consider merely talent? Or a skill feat that places them above the character they beat that has X amount of experience? I'm a bit interested in your philosophy.
 
@YungMazi The reason we agreed he has superior CQC, was because of his his techniques and experience advantage(that's more questionable)(This from someone who has watched and read both series extensively.)

Tsuna's close combat style generally just involves punches,kicks the occasional burning axle, and using his precog.

Yami's close combat style involves being able to attack from any direction within a certain zone(read manazone), making undodgeable slashes(we referenced this above but here,https://w11.mangafreak.net/Read1_Black_Clover_246),and increasing his range in close combat using his darkness slashes.

Yami also has more experience in fighting and has been fighting since he was a teenager(he's 29 in story rn so more than 15 years of fighting experience).

In terms of skill feats:

'He can sword fight opponents who outspeed him (see Yami vs Patry), or swordfight multiple opponents with a broken sword (see Yami vs The Third Eye). I don't know how impressive these feats would be considered, but the point is that he can swordfight as if the fight were in neutral position even if the match-up is otherwise a losing match-up for him, probably because his fighting style and magic spells are specifically designed for superior swordfighting.'

Tsuna's skill feats scale to Yammato being able to defeat squalo,'the best swordman' in a week, but even in that case yammato was taught the best style of swordmanship in that week, which was the reason he won.

I would go with the argument that Tsuna has superior talent, but Yami has been fighting much much longer than Tsuna has.

Even, if you want to call the experience a draw, it's inarguable that Yami has more CQC variety than Tsuna.Tsuna's style of combat is a lot more bland than Yami's.

In terms of Stamina.

Tsuna used two XX-burners in one-day correct, but remember than Enma gave him some of his dying will flames and after the second XX-burner that day Tsuna was out of energy, and it was only because enma gave him energy that he could keep going. (https://w11.mangafreak.net/Read1_Katekyo_Hitman_Reborn_342)

Yami fought in a war againt multiple high-level character without rest(it went on for more than a day), and broke out multiple dimension-slash(Yami's equivalent of an XX-burner), and he was no worse for wear.

From what I'm seeing Yami has at least has a slight edge in CQC, and stamina.

@Litentric Teo

Squalo is not comparable to Yami , squalo is 22 in story yami is 29 , yami has been fighting longer than squalo.

Yammato's skill feats essentially boil down to him mastering a particular sword art extremely quickly, it just happened to be the best sword art ever(he adapted it yes, but the majority was there).

Squalo even trains Yammato later showing he has superior skill, it's just Yammato has superior talent.
 
@Cyborg

Except in the future arc, Squalo is ten years older. So he's actually 32. And he likely has been training longer than Yami since hitmen are usually trained as children.

Also, that whole point about Yamamoto makes no sense. Teaching someone the "best sword style" is A) Subjective as part of Yamamoto's character arc is to prove his style is the best, through his skill and B) Isn't even applicable to real life. Someone could teach you Shigure Soen Ryu for a week and Squalo would utterly destroy you in H2H. It's a feat of both talent and skill.

Tsuna also has more than punches and kicks. Like Yami, he can reinforce his body using the flames of the earth. Boost his attacks using the flames of the sky. Augment his speed for variant timings on his attacks. Miss punches that have the aftereffect of spreading his flames. Use Natsu's roar as a potential means of petrification. (And later on he even uses the X-Burner from up close). Not to mention the frequency with which he flies in and out of CQC range while combating his opponent. You're certainly underselling what he brings to the table when he's up close. Everything he can do afar, minus XX-Burner, he can do from up close.

Just to make one last point on Yamamoto. It should be noted that he was pressuring Genkishi in CQC, whom was hinted to be superior to future Squalo in terms of swordsmanship. The reason Genkishi won was due to his illusions, in other words, hax. Not inferior CQC on behalf of Yamamoto.
 
I also have to ask a question, however. Are these high level characters skilled in using their magic? As that seems to be a completely different skill entirely when compared to wielding a sword.

I'm not questioning Yami's skill. But a major part in sharpening one's martial craft is through using it against other skilled martial users. Most of the folk in BC use magic and specifically don't train their bodies because they can augment them with magic. I'm simply a bit skeptical on how frequently Yami is capable of fighting people with martial ability that rival his own.
 
Future Yammato also was trained by Squalo , it's why he had his techniques, squalo even mentions this when he's training past yammato.

I didn't mention his augment of speed , because Yami can do that too so it's not a game-change.Reinforcement of the body doesn't add variety of your fighting style it just increased your strength.Tsuna using X-burner up close was only seen post-Island arc, so for the purposes of this vs-battles he can't use that here.

In character, Tsuna doesn't use natsu's roar in close combat, all the things I've mentioned with Yami where things he's done in CQC before. I can pull up panels of Yami doing all of the above in CQC.
 
In regards to fiction. More experience does not mean someone is more skilled in CQC, the most you could say is that the person with more experience is a better tactician, but that doesn't really apply to CQC often time.

Case in point, Gokudera is by far the best tactician in KHR (Bar Byakuran using his power), but nobody would claim he could fight equally against Tsuna or Hibari in a fist fight.

"Tsuna's skill feats scale to Yammato being able to defeat squalo,'the best swordman' in a week, but even in that case yammato was taught the best style of swordmanship in that week, which was the reason he won."

^This leaves out a lot of additional context. Like the fact that Takeshi Yamamoto wasn't actually "taught the best style of swordsmanship in that week", more-like, he saw all of the special techniques used one time and perfected them in a week. To the point where he can take on Squalo, who defeated the sword emperor, who defeated 100 of the world's best swordsmen.

If your argument is that he has more variety in close combat and that give him an edge, I won't argue it.

And your point about Tsuna having Enma's power....Tsuna has Oath Flame here, so he has Enma's power either way...
 
Tsuna doesn't use a lot of things in-character tbh. Like petrification and pressure points.

It's arguable if that's because he knows it wouldn't work though. Like the reason why a lot of rinnegan peeps don't use soul rip for some reason.
 
All of the characters Yami fought:

(This was regarded as a stamina feat not a skill feat.)

All of the elves where skilled users of their magic and arguably had more or equivalent magic than Yami.

He fought elf-possed Langris(Spatial magic)

Elf-possed Charlotte(She was a sword/plant user)

Elf-possed Owen and Marx

4-Nameles Elves who where all powerful on their own right(they where Magic Knights so they should be stronger than Owen and Marx)

Zagred-Main-Villain


@YungMazi The reason I mention that is because you mentioned it as a stamina feat,Tsuna has enma's power, so at best he could fire off 4-XX burners in a day(Enma shouldn't have significantly larger reserves than Tsuna).
 
If a character doesn't use something in character, than it's not fair to say he would now. This isn't bloodlusted.
 
@YungMazi, More experience in fiction typically does apply to CQC the point you gave , said Gokudera couldn't fight Tsuna/Hibari in a fist fight, but Gokudera has very little in terms of CQC experience. Experience is important and usually more so than raw talent. Yami has superior variety in CQC and more experience, all Tsuna has going for him is raw talent.

Yami should be at least slightly superior in CQC.
 
Experience doesn't mean anything over here on VSB though. And it hasn't for at least the past year.

Because a character can be so much more skilled than you, that no matter how much time you spend fighting or training, you could never reach their level. Because at some point, talent and actual ability plays a major factor in what you can accomplish.

This is why in skill debates, experience usually isn't brought up. Unless the two have no reliable skill feats to fall back on. This is how it's worked here ever since people like Ikki and Yujiro became popular.

"the point you gave , said Gokudera couldn't fight Tsuna/Hibari in a fist fight, but Gokudera has very little in terms of CQC experience."

I was making a point of saying being a better tactician isn't the same as being more skilled in CQC. It wasn't supposed to be a direct parallel.
 
MindControl116 said:
I have no knowledge on the KHR verse, so I genuinely cannot say how skilled Tsunayoshi is in CQC relative to Yami, but based on what I have read on this thread, both fighters are very impressive in this regard within their own verses. However, my understanding is that Tsunayoshi's abilities and techniques are not specifically geared to help him in CQC, and when they do, it's circumstantial. Meanwhile, Yami's dark magic spells are specifically specialized in this, and some spells are designed to aid him in CQC in the first place, such as the fact the is using reinforcement magic to amp himself, and the fact that he has spells such as Avidya Slash and Iai Slash, which is stated to never miss, and Black Blade, these things make me think he probably does have an advantage in CQC even if ever so slight. He can sword fight opponents who outspeed him (see Yami vs Patry), or swordfight multiple opponents with a broken sword (see Yami vs The Third Eye). I don't know how impressive these feats would be considered, but the point is that he can swordfight as if the fight were in neutral position even if the match-up is otherwise a losing match-up for him, probably because his fighting style and magic spells are specifically designed for superior swordfighting.
Also, I don't know what y'all's philosophy is regarding talent vs experience, but I usually always vote for the person with more experience over the person with more talent, if all other things are equal. You can disagree, because it is mainly just a philosophy, but I think it's a reasonable claim, at least.
Click to expand...
The skill gap is not so large that experience is inconsequential , in fact Yami could be considered arguable more skilled(I'm not arguing that, from my own observations only). MindControl did a post that shows Yami is certainly skilled in his own right, to a point that is at least comparable to Tsuna.

Also, he has been noted to have accelerate development in his own right as his motto is surpass your limits(it's the quote on his profile), and he is gotten stronger mid-fight during multiple fights in the series, so he certainly isn't significantly less talented than Tsuna.
 
I just don't see a reason why you say Yami is comparably skilled (arguably better). The stuff you mentioned before and what's on his profile seem rather pedistrian compared to KHR fighters.

Iirc, a big plot point in black clover is that almost everyone neglects CQC and strength training, and that's a big reason why Asta is so powerful (As someone who's only heard this from a friend second-hand and haven't watched or read it myself)

While KHR is the opposite, in a lot of ways. One being that most of the cast are excellent CQC fighters, with the vllains of only the second major arc being said to be geniuses among expert assassins.Literally taking on missions deemed to be impossible and never failing them.

Even varia no-names are on that level.
 
The reason , I consider Yami comparatively skilled as when it comes down to fighting style, and techniques Yam has a clear edge.

A problem I see is that we get mention that all of these characters are extremely skilled in CQC, but we don't actually have a lot of skill feats. Yammato's skill feat against Squalo sounds impressive, but if you look at Squalo's profile he has only 3 notable techniques(and only 1 of them is unique in anyway), and it's arguable if squalo defeated these people because he was super skilled or because he was just physically stronger.

Yami's feats are just far more tangible, because he's been shown capable of fighting against people who are significantly faster than him(something Tsuna has had issues with,Xanxus),and fight against people with handicaps in please and outnumbered(Fought a 3 on one fight with a broken sword, against 2 opponents with significant close combat skill(Raia and Vetto) and 1 long range).

Yami should at least be comparatively skilled as while he doesn't have the same name-brand , his actions in combat have shown him to be an incredibly skilled fighter.
 
That's fair , the skill debate can go on for a while, but can we at least agree that in character Yami has more variety in CQC than Tsuna which should give him at least a slight edge.
 
CyborgSakumo said:
We're using the first oath-flame tsuna key which is low 6-B, likely higher
As the OP I can't vote so I'll just list the win-conditions here

Tsuna:

Absorb Yami's power enough to win through superior stats.(Not easy unless, verse-equalization mana=dying will flames is a thing because he has to get close)

Seal Yami using zero point breakthrough-first edition.(This wincon is difficult as he needs to get in close to do it)

Yami:

Use his superior close-combat skills to get in close and try to end the fight using his superior CQC.(Tsuna possesses superior midair mobility(Tsuna can fly, yami can walk on air)so this won't be easy.)

Make the fight a fight of attrition and keep tsuna from absorbing his power.(This win-con is difficult because if verse-equalization is a thing than tsuna can absorb his attacks long-range, and can get in close and absorb his power.)

If tsuna can't absorb his power than, the fight leans in Yami's favor, if he can than it's in Tsuna's favor.
Click to expand...
K, thanks it's nice to be able to agree to disagree once in a while, looking at the winconditions I posted above what's you vote.
 
Tsuna via absorbing an attack, I suppose.

Edit:

Because even one use of it is an exponential stat increase.
 
MindControl116 said:
Anyhow, I conclude that this is inconclusive as well, as it is plausible that the battle could go either way, and I do not see how Tsuna can force a reliable strategy to absorb Yami's power or seal him with any more or less likelihood than Yami can force a battle of attrition. All the winning conditions are difficult to achieve.
Click to expand...
MindControl's reasons for inconclusive where stated here.
 
Currently no votes for Yami, but his winconditions are:

Yami:

Use his superior close-combat skills to get in close and try to end the fight using his superior CQC.(Tsuna possesses superior midair mobility(Tsuna can fly, yami can walk on air)so this won't be easy.)

Make the fight a fight of attrition and keep tsuna from absorbing his power.(This win-con is difficult because if verse-equalization is a thing than tsuna can absorb his attacks long-range, and can get in close and absorb his power.
 
Remember in Genkishi vs Tsuna where Tsuna was getting stomped and speed blitzed? Then he absorbed 1 attack and started fighting on par with Genkishi?

I'd say that's pretty exponential.

Even the feat you mentioned is pretty good evidence, all things considered.

Edit:

Iirc he did the same thing against his dad. Get speed blitzed and stomped physically. Absorb one attack, and start fighting equally with him. ( Also keep in mind that it's a mere fraction of his opponent's power, as both here and with Genkishi they were casual attacks that didn't seem to drain them at all)
 
Yeah. Cyborg is correct. 172% is the hard number, as given by my blog. Though apparently, it's enough to blitz/catch up physically.

Yung makes a good point on skill. Though, number of techniques known doesn't equate to skill at all. And there are certainly definitive skill feats in KHR. Such as Yamamoto keeping with up Genkishi in swordplay despite the latter employing the use of illusions. Yamamoto defeating Squalo despite being physically unequal to him, and having less options. Plus, Squalo literally had a sword meant to protect from even his blind spot. Future Hibari fighting against Genkishi is another example, given we know how skilled Genkishi is since he's comparable to Squalo. And we actually get to see one or two of Squalo's fights from his 100, where he doesn't seem to be using his box weapon at all. And Tsuna is able to become comparable to future Hibari in terms of skill, all while learning to control the unsaddled horse that are his hard flames. Yung also made mention on how the Varia are far above even the best of hitmen in terms of skill, which allows us to make comparisons to skilled hitmen irl. Especially since one of the fights of that arc was essentially a MMA fight, lol.

However, CQC also involves a lot more than martial ability (as opposed to H2H). And I think this is where it's being argued that Yami has a slight advantage. Attacking from multiple directions at once primarily. And being able to counter gravity manip.

So honestly, I'm not really sure. I'll go with incon for now, but the point about Tsuna's absorption is well made.

Also, if someone could tell me whether or not the match I made with Zagred is fair, I'd really appreciate it.
 
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