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I'm making this revision to do some justice to the demons (which are severely underrepresented on this wiki), the Everlasting Dragons (which are honestly downplayed pretty badly), and the Lords (which save for Gwyn are also downplayed), as well as to further flesh out the playable characters' pages, which I feel are missing a tier or two. So let's just get right into it.

Demons
This is going to be a fairly simple segment, since it just deals with the missing player character tier I was talking about, and the Archtree melting feat that used to be the basis of the ratings for the Dark Souls god tiers but has been slept on ever since the upgrade. Basically, Demons such as Quelaag, Ceaseless Discharge, and Demon Firesage should be given City level ratings scaling to the Archtree melting feat, namely the 9.745 megaton value derived from melting a full Archtree. This should scale to Quelaag, as she was one of the Daughters of Chaos who was involved with burning down the Archtrees, and should scale to Firesage, Ceaseless Discharge, and the Chosen Undead, who are comparable to her or directly scale to her.

Dragons
The Everlasting Dragons have been victim to some pretty heavy downplaying, including one comment on a previous Dark Souls CRT that essentially summed up the Dragon War as a mere extermination where a few Silver Knights died. And due to this, they have been victim to wonky scaling that is nonsensical and lore-breaking. Let's take Black Dragon Kalameet for example. His page states that Anor Londo, in its prime (implying the presence of Lord of Sunlight Gwyn, who is High 4-C) didn't dare to provoke him. And yet, Kalameet is 6-B? Country level is infinitesimal next to Large Star level. Sure, Gwyn is weak to Dark, but Gwyn would still ash Kalameet by sheer AP difference according to VBW, and yet still fears him according to lore. That is massively inconsistent, and should be rectified. This also applies to Nito and Seath, who, despite being a Lord and holding a significant portion of Gwyn's Soul respectively, are made out to be utter chumps compared to Gwyn and the Lords of Cinder by the wiki. And given that 6-B is essentially an across-the-board rating for all Everlasting Dragons, this also implies that Midir is 6-B, despite being capable of bodying the Ashen One, who has to defeat an absolute bare minimum of 2 High 4-C characters to even make it to Midir in the first place, and more often than not will fight Midir toward the end of their journey, when they have fought up to 6 4-C to High 4-C characters. And this is to say nothing of why Midir is in the Ringed City in the first palce, which is to consume portions of the Ringed City's Abyss to keep it in check, an Abyss which is sustained by the very Dark Soul held by the Pygmy Lords, which is one of the 4 Lord Souls, and the counterpart to Gwyn's own Light Soul. To further illustrate the power of the Dark Soul, this very same Dark Souls later empowers Gael to the point where he's one of the top 5 most powerful beings in the entire series. Everlasting Dragons should not be so insultingly far behind the Lords on the power ladder. That is massively inconsistent, and should be rectified.
 
Are we sure that Gwyn was 4-C level at the time? Because just because Anor Londor was at it's prime doesn't mean he was. When he sacrifice his life, the First Flame was dying and by accosiation so was Anor Londor since they are connected by the Age of Fire, which is a different time compared to when Anor Londor was still at it's highest.

Another question to ask why is Gwyn 4-C when he was still ruling Anor Londor if the Tier is base on fueling the first flame? I get that there isn't much of a difference when he was rulling AL and when he sacrificed his life.

It may also be possible that Kalameet isn't stronger then Anor Londor as a whole since Gough is able to snipe him out of the skies with just one arrow.
 
JBennett said:
Are we sure that Gwyn was 4-C level at the time? Because just because Anor Londor was at it's prime doesn't mean he was. When he sacrifice his life, the First Flame was dying and by accosiation so was Anor Londor since they are connected by the Age of Fire, which is a different time compared to when Anor Londor was still at it's highest.

Another question to ask why is Gwyn 4-C when he was still ruling Anor Londor if the Tier is base on fueling the first flame? I get that there isn't much of a difference when he was rulling AL and when he sacrificed his life.

It may also be possible that Kalameet isn't stronger then Anor Londor as a whole since Gough is able to snipe him out of the skies with just one arrow.
Gwyn still had to be 4-C to relight the First Flame, 4-C still being more than sufficient to ash a 6-B

Gough blindsided him, it wasn't a straight fight where Kalameet had the opportunity to dodge, and regardless Gough didn't even do that much damage, Kalameet isn't hurting too badly when you fight him and he can still even fly for short periods. And even given Gough sniping Kalameet that still 2-1 in favor of Gwyn fearing/respecting the power of Everlasting Dragons.
 
I would definitely agree in that the other Lord Soul bearers should be somewhat relative to Gwyn. Sure, there are item descriptions that indicate how Gwyn was the strongest of the Lords, but the disparity between them shouldn't be that massive.

It took the combined strength of all the Lords, as well as Seath's betrayal to wipe out the Everlasting Dragons.
 
The other lords and dragons don't scale because every time they try to do something like Gwyn they either fail instantly or straight up die. The Witch of Izalath tried to make a replica of the first flame and was immediately corrupted. Kalameet has one of his wings broken from Gough and most likely would have instantly died if he got shot in the head. Silver Knights also killed the Everlasting Dragons. I do think the lords should be closer to Gwyn considering even before getting a piece of Gwyn's Soul Seath murdered so many dragons to the point he was lying on a mountain of their corpses, but they're definitely not 4-C since they get instantly vaporized for even trying to make a fake first flame.
 
Also I'm pretty sure Quelaag was supposed to be upgraded to Town Level but the discussion just kinda ended. It's based of a ceaseless discharge calc, I'll try to find it
 
Gwyn linked the first flame, he was not experimenting nor was he attempting to create a new flame. The Witch of Izalith was attempting to create a new first flame, but failed which resulted in the creation of Demons. Her intention was not to link the fire, so I really wouldn't consider the processes identical in any way.

The other Lords being that much weaker than Gwyn is ridiculous to be honest.
 
They only have shards of his soul, also after getting all 4 of their souls plus the Gwyn shards, his corpse still kills the Chosen Undead multiple times
 
Keeweed said:
The other lords and dragons don't scale because every time they try to do something like Gwyn they either fail instantly or straight up die. The Witch of Izalath tried to make a replica of the first flame and was immediately corrupted. Kalameet has one of his wings broken from Gough and most likely would have instantly died if he got shot in the head. Silver Knights also killed the Everlasting Dragons. I do think the lords should be closer to Gwyn considering even before getting a piece of Gwyn's Soul Seath murdered so many dragons to the point he was lying on a mountain of their corpses, but they're definitely not 4-C since they get instantly vaporized for even trying to make a fake first flame.
1) Kalameet had one of his wings injured, not neccessarily broken, which would make him utterly incapable of flight, and we see him flying for short durations in our fight with him. Plus, the skull's thicker and more protective, so I doubt it would be a surefire kill. 2) Silver Knights used lightning, and weapons meant specifically for piercing scales. 3) Didn't get vaporized, and the Flame of Chaos was still semi-successful, since that which was corrupted maintained a human-like sapience while also being considerably boosted in power.
 
Alright so to begin,

1) The CU never absorbed the Lord Souls, he simply used them to satiate the Lord Vessel.

2) The Life and Death souls were essentially in weakened states.

3) Only the four kings and Seath possessed shards of the Light Soul.
 
1) Good Point

3) I probably should have been more specific, because I knew that. Seath with a bit of Gwyn's soul is equal to regular lords, but that's one of the reasons I feel like they shouldn't be 4-C because a single piece of his soul is equal to the other lords. Nito was only weaken because Pinwheel was stealing his power, but you killed Pinwheel and Nito to get the full power back but that's still only a piece of Gwyn's soul. I do think they should be way closer to Gwyn than being compared to the dragons (especially since Seath pre lord soul slaughtered other dragons causally) but it's clear that Gwyn is the strongest lord by far.
 
Also Gough still injuried Kalameet, if Kalameet really was as dangerous as Gough was saying it wouldn't make any since for him to just causally shot him out the sky way past his prime. And in a other thread it was stated that if the other characters like the dragons scaled to the 4-C feat it would be an outlier, since that means the knights of Gwyn, Havel, Black Iron Tarkus, Mid game solare, and the two onion knights would also be 4-C. The Everlasting dragons war wasn't a battle, it was a complete slaughter. Seath physical ripped hundreds of them apart without even using lightning and Ornstein has hundreds of their heads on his wall.
 
Actually Keeweed, it wasn't primarily Pinwheel. It's true that Pinwheel stole the rite of kindling from Nito, but Nito had offered much of his Lord Soul's power to death. Administering death to all things must require a considerable amount of power.
 
Can you give me a scan or a quote of that, because I don't remember the games ever saying anything like that. Also can some get Wokistan and Mr. Bambu to check this thread out, because they're much better lore exports than me, and I feel like they would help this thread out a lot.
 
Ah, Wait so Nito literally created the concpt of death?, I want more people's opinions on the other lords, but the dragons definitely don't scale due to Gough immediately contradicting his own statement by shoting Kalameet out of the sky, and it would also instantly screw up all the scaling.
 
My issue isn't with the dragons being 4-C. I do not agree with the idea of them being that strong, but I don't agree with their current tiers either.


I completely disagree with the other Lords being that weak, it's ridiculous. More distant Lords of Cinder being stronger than the likes of Nito, and the Witch in their primes makes my stomach ache.
 
The dragons current tier is from a dragon feat (a note worthy dragon at that). There really isn't a reason as to why they should be stronger when characters like the Dragonslayer Armor killed so many dragons to the point that the armor itself became sentient with a murder boner to kill everything that came near it.

I get that stomach ache when people say Nito and the Witch should be 4-C so I technically know how you feel. Wokistan said he'll look over this tomorrow so I'll wait for him on the 4-C stuff
 
To be fair, the 4-C rating was statistically analyzed by a wiki. The lore implications regarding the power of the dragons is that they were quite a threat. One could surmise the idea that Gwyn ripped apart the dragons stone scales so that his knights could finish the dragons, but there are weapons besides the power of miracles that can harm the dragons.
 
They're quite a threat, the same way Kalameet is quite a threat. Gough: 'Even Anor Londo in its prime wouldn't attack him, now watch as I technically no scoop him - insert call of duty hit marker sound - now you random person who, as far as I'm aware is on par with a weakened Knight of Gwyn, go kill Kalameet'
 
I wouldn't consider Kalameet to be on par with an Everlasting Dragon though. Kalameet is really just a descendant. Regardless, the strength of the Chosen Undead at the time isn't explicitly known. Gough practically doubted the CU's ability to slay Kalameet as well, as he legitimately thought that no good would come of this.
 
I mean he still helped him out, if he doubted him so much I don't really see why he would have bothered to even shoot the dragon down in the first place. The Country Level stuff comes from a Everlasting dragon, they really don't have anything going for them except they were called threatening, but characters like the dragonslayer armor and Havel killed so many that it became a personal hobby. Also even if they were stronger there's nothing to scale them to so they would still be 6-B regardless because there's nothing else about them
 
I mean, I would interpret it more along the lines of him wanting to hunt a dragon one last time. "What good is a dog with no hares to hunt?"

As for the dragonslayers, they generally possessed weapons that were enchanted with lightning which is the reknown weakness of dragonkind. Havel possessed a dragon tooth, although it isn't known how he obtained it. He obviously killed a dragon, but considering the issue with their scales he probably used a dragon slayer weapon initially(Headcanon.)

Gwyn's access to lightning especially, is also a major factor when discussing the fall of the dragons.

I could be swayed regarding this, but I'd prefer more lore enthusiasts first.
 
I do agree that some of rhe noteworthy dragons should be rated higher

However seath and nito being lords doesn't warrent the same rating as gwyn for one they only have part of his soul and two they have never been implied to be able to link the first flame and sustain the sun unlike gwyn and other locs
 
I believe Midir was once rated as Large Star for consuming the Abyss at its prime but his page was deleted so I believe he got downgraded. I can agree with the lord stuff that they don't scale, I'm learning a lot more about them but I'm still leaning to them not scaling
 
Well the other thread (the downgrade one) just made this worthless; and the town level feat I just asked an admin about so this entire thread can be closed.
 
Apparently the low 7-B witches was just accepted by an admin so this thread can definitely be closed now.
 
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