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Dark Souls Dragons and God Tiers Revision

Do not quote large blocks of text.

"Now you are just cherry picking the most convenient comments. When I asked for proof I got none, it's that simple, their job to hand me over scans not mine in this case."

No. If I were to cherry pick, I would not have posted the entire thread for everyone to read every detail themselves. They can just as easily go into the thread to see if what I'm saying is true or not. I have nothing to hide.

"Now I don't get this, are you saying I can attack with the power of the sun or the power to destroy a sun but still not being able to destroy it yet still is accepted as star level feat?"

Yes. Look at Dragon Ball. These guys launch universal ki blasts over and over again. At times they barely bust a city. Look at Digimon. These guys are full of Large Star level beasts walking around. Name how many times you see them destroying the planet. I could go on and on. Being Star level =/= I can destroy the sun.

"I already debunked the storm thing, if the storm does move at such a speed, and such power then it is bound to destroy a lot. You put it on attack potency, which is destruction. The storm feat had no destructive properties what so ever and it still gets used for scaling and everything, not to mention they all automatically assumed the being was doing it not the bell which is not counted out because there is no context to deny this."

You never did. I find it ironic that you are looking for scans for your stuff, but you never posted any type of scan to disprove storm feats. Matter of fact they posted direct scans that show you why storm feats qualify for AP. You debunked nothing. But if you have a worthwhile debunk, please state it in a respectful manner.
 
@Dragonmasterxyz

"Being star level=/=I can destroy the sun"

Thats pretty ridiculous to say when this wikis entire tiering system revolves solely around attack power. I'm pretty sure being Star level require stou to at least be able to destroy or create it, not simply power it.

But that's beside the point, when no one proved the sun is the flame, or their energy is transported to the flame. And please don't quote some pointless comment again, I wanted to see the explicit feat or said statement that confirms it within the game not from the words of someone else.

What you fail to see is that this so called "star level feat" has no other consistent feats on the same scale, it's a pretty obvious outlier.

Thats burden of proof fallacy, the proof was never on me, this is what everyone failed to comprehend. I denied already formed conclusion and demanded to see proof for it's creation. How can you possibly say that even if the storm was dragged with country level AP, it doesn't destroy anything, it doesn't phase anything, how does a feat that ahs nothing to do with AP still get used for AP anyway.

Debunked nothing is not really the kind of word to describe it, rather I could not debunk anything. Because no one gave me any material to go from. Just plain statements that they expected me to believe.
 
Thats pretty ridiculous to say when this wikis entire tiering system revolves solely around attack power. I'm pretty sure being Star level require stou to at least be able to destroy or create it, not simply power it.

Incredulity. Just because you don't believe it doesn't make it not true.

"But that's beside the point, when no one proved the sun is the flame, or their energy is transported to the flame. And please don't quote some pointless comment again, I wanted to see the explicit feat or said statement that confirms it within the game not from the words of someone else."

So this does not count? You never addressed it.

"I thought people were talking about the sun feat with the end of fire ending. Basically once the first flame dissappears so does light. This would include the sun, which gives off the most light. There's already a eclipse over the sun after you kill the lords of cinder."
Dark Souls 3 - The End of Fire ENDING (Second Ending)
Dark Souls 3 - The End of Fire ENDING (Second Ending)


"What you fail to see is that this so called "star level feat" has no other consistent feats on the same scale, it's a pretty obvious outlier."

From what I've read it only scales to absolute God Tiers. No one else. There is a reason why Low 2-C Zelda Goddesses and 3-A God of War Primordials are not outliers. They are God Tiers.

"Thats burden of proof fallacy, the proof was never on me, this is what everyone failed to comprehend. I denied already formed conclusion and demanded to see proof for it's creation. How can you possibly say that even if the storm was dragged with country level AP, it doesn't destroy anything, it doesn't phase anything, how does a feat that ahs nothing to do with AP still get used for AP anyway."

But they constantly showed you evidence of storms being applied to AP. Something you just blatantly ignore and continue to ignore. We can only post so much until we mark you as in denial.

"Debunked nothing is not really the kind of word to describe it, rather I could not debunk anything. Because no one gave me any material to go from. Just plain statements that they expected me to believe."

Pretty sure I saw quotes as well as links to sites with them. In fact I did see them. You seem to never had addressed it. Ironically.

"I'll directly link the wiki. I don't want to search for the pic for every single description of souls, clothes and weapons I need to explain this.

>Before the age of fire, there was age of ancients, controlled by everlasting dragons.

>Humanoids saw the first flame created from below.

>Great Lord Gwy, Gravelord Nito and the Witch of Azalith overthrown the Dragons with the help of Seath the Scaleless.

>Furtive Pygmy, another first Lord, kept Dark Soul within him, waiting to kick start the age of dark.

Now, there is no evidence suggesting that "sun" existed in age of the ancients. Nothing. Because the first flame didn't just created life and fire but also death and dark by lack of it. An uncompleted world is gray, representing lack of anything."
 
Kepekley23 said:
@Unholy
We've already had a huge discussion about this.

Creating and spreading storms requires kinetic/latent energy, which is measured in joules/watts, values that can be converted straight into tons of TNT just like any explosion or crater creation feats.

Said energy can be condensed and applied over a specific range, which qualifies as Attack Potency. There is a difference between Attack Potency and Destructive Capacity. No storm creator can create blasts wide enough to engulf countries, but they produce that much energy over a condensed range.
Click to expand...
Can I actually see proof of this (the bolded bit) being universal through franchises though?

Because this is the issue I have with storm calcs in general. Unless there is something making it very clear that the energy of the entire storm can be condensed into the power of a single attack, then there is no reason to assume that to be as such. If the person is pulling the clouds around with telekinesis, then it can logically be said that the power of their other telekinetic attacks scales. But when it's just treated as "my presence draws clouds" or "I can summon clouds", then there would need to be something making it clear that that ability of summoning clouds can be applied to the energy of an attack.

Perhaps a bad example seeing as comics have dozens of outliers, but while Storm can create a storm across the planet, you'd need to prove that she can put that level of energy into a single lightning bolt.

In any case, I disagree with Country level top tiers. Not because of the calc, but because there is no where near enough proof to say that this scales to anyone. Nothing says that a single dragon made the bells, and did so all at once. There are way, way to many unknowns in the entire situation, and yet everyone has completely ignored them to say that the bells scale.
 
How about you make a separate thread regarding it. Otherwise this thread will become about all Storm Calcs and not Dark Souls Upgrades/Downgrades/Whatever.
 
Can I actually see proof of this (the bolded bit) being universal through franchises though?

Would you say all characters who are above Tier 8 via explosive\crater feats but only cause Tier 9 damage with the same blasts that made them Tier 8 should be lower?

There is no reason to assume that you can condense a city busting explosion into punches or other blasts either, but we automatically assume it in order to avoid the AOE fallacy.

Basically, there is next to no difference between an energy feat that is achieved through explosions and craters and a storm or cloud moving feat. Both are measured with an energy unit, and therefore they are both shielded from the AOE fallacy. One is not higher than the other.
 
@Kep The difference is that when someone causes city busting explosions, that are an energy output that can clearly said to be used in an attack like an energy blast.

With things like weather manipulation, saying that energy is can be used in an attack is a lot less justifiable.
 
@Monarch

There is actually no difference. That's just because we're used to glorifying large explosions, craters and widespread destruction, so something as comparatively innocuous and less flashy as a weather creation feat gets questioned.

When you create a storm, you are putting in energy and power, in a similar manner to when you wipe out an entire city with a blast. In fact, cyclones, typhoons and hurricanes are considered storms, and cause destruction wherever they go.

Whenever you blast a city into oblivion, you're generating the exact same type of kinetic energy measured in joules, that can be likened to tons of TNT.

Why can it be "clearly said" to be used in an energy blast, but a storm can't? You questioned the AOE fallacy as an universal rule. If we don't consider that for storms, we can't consider them for blasts and craters either. If that's the case, it's just "explosion manip" that doesn't scale to AP.

Storms can be generated and have their energy in joules per second condensed into a certain range, much like a city busting attack can be said to be condensed into a smaller AOE. There is no difference.
 
I disagree. And FF not just cause temporal distortion but created as well. There are several instances where stated that FF=Time. Many times in fact. And ringed city is the period at the end of time as well. Basically, there is a possibility that FF is actually Low 2-C source.
 
Storms can be generated and have their energy in joules per second condensed into a certain range.

And if the character in question has never showed the ability to do this, we assume they can for some reason?
 
All 7-B characters should be downgraded because they haven't shown the ability to actually condense their energy blasts? Or do we recognize that the AOE fallacy should be a standard assumption in effect through most narratives, because Shonen authors recognize that it wouldn't be possible to keep portraying the same DC over and over with every single blow?

Once again, it's the same thing.
 
Except energy blasts are not storms. They are generally treated very differently in fiction, and storms very rarely if ever are used to translate to the power of the character.
 
Why are they "different"? And why should we apply the AOE fallacy because of a "difference", but not to storms, which generate the exact same energy?
 
Reinhardthrowhisspear said:
I disagree. And FF not just cause temporal distortion but created as well. There are several instances where stated that FF=Time. Many times in fact. And ringed city is the period at the end of time as well. Basically, there is a possibility that FF is actually Low 2-C source.
Click to expand...
I tried upgrading it to that before, got rejected
 
I literally used her as an example of why saying "they can put that much power in a hit" is not valid.

Her lightning bolts are not all individually 5-C
 
I tried upgrading it to that before, got rejected

Of course it does. Upgrading it using that is like upgrading Sonic or SM to high 2A because they harness the power. My point is that every person downgrading the verse doesn't even consider that the flame has possible evidence that makes it stronger than we think it is.
 
Code: 
@Dragonmasterxyz
I already said it, there is no proof that says the sun disappears, what you see in the game is never proven to be what it's claimed it is. That's no proof of sun actually disappearing, just the light, if the whole sun disappeared, that would make a massive disaster in the solar system.

"But they constantly showed you evidence of storms being applied to AP. Something you just blatantly ignore and continue to ignore. We can only post so much until we mark you as in denial."

And I kept asking them how that much force doesn't destroy anything. You can't just say this much AP will be launched without destroying something. That's just defying logic and wanking hard. If the storm was dragged into the center of the peak then that would have to cause a destruction. something that has that much AP, would definitely leave the area in a catastrophic state, because it engulfed it in the storm.

"Pretty sure I saw quotes as well as links to sites with them. In fact I did see them. You seem to never had addressed it. Ironically. "

Yeah, Link to the sites with pointless description of items, none of those proved what I asked for, they tried to explain it through their logic. Hell one ****** even said the whole world was gray because land of gray Crags means the whole world lmfao.

"From what I've read it only scales to absolute God Tiers. No one else. There is a reason why Low 2-C Zelda Goddesses and 3-A God of War Primordials are not outliers. They are God Tiers"

God tiers who had to team up to stand a chance against "country busting" drakes. Country and Star level are far apart, it's inconsistent not only with the lore, but with the gameplay and most importantly feats. Feats>Statements it's always been this way, and DS feats show nothing above Town level, anything that is higher has no context, feats or anything to apply it to AP.
 
^ Havel killed thousands of Dragons with their teeth stop acting like it took them a ton of effort when Gough nearly one shot one of the strongest dragons in the verse.

Gough: Not even Anor Londo in its prime would attack him, but real quick let me no scope him while I'm blind and old. (Dragon falls from sky) Now you, a single undead, go kill him.

The entire point of Dark Soul one is to collect everyone else's souls so you can get strong enough to fight Gwyn, and yet the Chosen Undead still dies multiple times trying to fight him.

Also Sun clearly disappears, even if only the light disappeared (which makes zero sense) it would still be above any tier your trying to give it.

9850CE4D-6422-4C01-8C03-67E159AC88EA
This also ignores the endings where they pretty much state that the Sun died. And I already explained in another thread why the storm didn't destroy the castle. Dark Souls 3 went through development Hell and it would have been a waste of time,money, and an amazing looking area, if they just destroyed it for little reason. It also would have screwed up Hawkwoods quest line.
Plus Dark Souls has a Small City Level feat that was shown.
 
Plus that illusion Gwynevere created that lit the entire country and Witch of Azalith burning gigantic home of eternal Dragons. There are still many instances where DS has shown above town level feats.

Also there is a moon lit in DS. It's a normal moon and there is no connection to any praise the sun instances so pretty safe to assume that it is a normal moon. Now if you listened to elementary teachings you know that moon is lit because it's reflecting the sun's light. The moon is obviously lit, and it's pretty big in fact. Which kind of provide more instances that the sun acts like a sun.

Images (37)a
 
Keeweed said:
^ Havel killed thousands of Dragons with their teeth stop acting like it took them a ton of effort when Gough nearly one shot one of the strongest dragons in the verse.

Gough: Not even Anor Londo in its prime would attack him, but real quick let me no scope him while I'm blind and old. (Dragon falls from sky) Now you, a single undead, go kill him.

The entire point of Dark Soul one is to collect everyone else's souls so you can get strong enough to fight Gwyn, and yet the Chosen Undead still dies multiple times trying to fight him.

Also Sun clearly disappears, even if only the light disappeared (which makes zero sense) it would still be above any tier your trying to give it.
Click to expand...
Last time you said he killed hundreds, make up your ******* mind already. also show me scans of him killing that much dragons.

He made him unable to fly, and even then he could fly mid fight, lmao, he wasn't even close to oneshotting him, he slightly weakened him, you really are a pathetic wanker.

That scan shows nothing about the sun disappearing, it's just an effect, unless you have scans to back it up it dies you can't say it does. And I already asked you for scans that prove they power the sun, because if they don't directly power the sun the stellar tiering is out of question. Not to mention the whole thing is an outlier anyway whether it's legit or not, because it isn't consistent with their feats.

You assume they keep the sun alive, when they only keep the flame alive, the flame appeared during the age of ancients, it says nothing about creating the sun or being the sun, the implications of it bringing heat cold, life death and that kind of shit are as inconsistent with the feats as is SoL sunlight spear.

"Dark Souls 3 went through development Hell and it would have been a waste of time,money, and an amazing looking area, if they just destroyed it for little reason."

Ohhh snap, I didn't realize you were actually an employee at Fromsoftware. No one gives a damn about it not being destroyed, if it didn't get destroyed it just didn't get destroyed, no one gives a shit wether developers actually intended this or not, the force didn't destroy it and that's that, shit doesn't get simpler than that. There are no signs of destruction or attack potency within this anywhere.
 
Ok I don't want to be rude, I understand where your coming from with these points, you see something you think is wrong and you want to correct it. I would respect that, if most of you argument wasn't an ad hominem. I don't want to just drop the discussion, but if you keep ignoring the point and go after the people I'm going to leave. (Also I have to go somewhere so I'm going to be leaving regardless)
 
They didn't intend to, kid. There are Many, many, many instances like this. And what is inconsistenct about what created with the things FF created? Seath the Scaleless is mortal because Dragons are Immortal because of the scales and he doesn't have that and possibly born during the war. It really is disappearing even in Ringed city, it looked like sunset. And there are times where statements beat feats.
 
Reinhardthrowhisspear said:
They didn't intend to, kid. There are Many, many, many instances like this. And what is inconsistenct about what created with the things FF created? Seath the Scaleless is mortal because Dragons are Immortal because of the scales and he doesn't have that and possibly born during the war. It really is disappearing even in Ringed city, it looked like sunset. And there are times where statements beat feats.
Click to expand...
I am not so familiar with FF so I cant realate to that.

And I already told you, you can't just say Seath was born during the war because that's when you see him first.

Seath was absolutely born before the war. how could he have allied with the lords lmao, he got mocked by other dragons, and then deicded to ally with them, he has to grow up you know, I already debunked this. By your Logic Gwyn could also be born as an old man, when that clearly isn't true, as gods do change appearance with time, this can be seen when comparing the slender long body of DS3 with the small petite body from DS1.
 
I'm just confused as to why we do storms for offensive AP specifically. Can someone link to this decision so I can be informed? I get that storms generate energy, and that you need a certain level of energy to create a storm, but unless you're Storm or a weather manipulator or someone who has demonstrated that that you can convert that energy into an energy blast or something-- I don't understand how this works. On the topic of AP vs DC, we apply the rule for AP=DC out of their verse's context. For example, a character who has a country level feat and scaling that doesn't consistently destroy a country level area still has the AP to destroy a country, even without the DC feat.

To say a character CAN'T destroy a planet even if he has that AP is a violation of the laws of conversation of energy, isn't it? That's why we have the entire concept of AP. IRL, any character with Moon level AP would always destroy stuff on that level, sans manipulating the affects of their energy.

Writers don't always keep this in mind though. Characters, like in Naruto, are physically Building level at least, and yet aren't even kicking up dust with their punches to each other. It's not to day these Characters CAN'T destroy what their AP has, they just DON'T because the writer doesn't realize how that works.
 
Not what I mean. I'm talking about why Town Level characters don't always destroy towns with their attacks. People make the mistake of thinking they CAN'T, even when they have the AP for it. The more accurate thing is that they don't because writers don't do a good job of displaying physics and junk. Like, for Hypersonic characters to not consistently break the sound barrier when they move. Doesn't mean they can't break the soundbarrier. Or Goku charging a Max power attack at someone, but it doesn't even do 5-C damage to the world around him-- despite being 3-A. It doesn't mean Goku CAN'T. He just doesn't. And you can assume that he can control the explosion's radius-- but even with other characters who don't have that, when they don't demonstrate the AoE, we assume they can demonstrate it in a Vs debate, otherwise their AP doesn't make sense. Especially when the other character has similar numbers and Actually demonstrated the proper AoE.
 
"The Star level feat literally only scales to the absolute god tiers of the verse"

Francly the scaling of DS character in this wiki is shit.

The wiki rates 1 Abyss Watcher low4-C,while characters like Nito,Manus,NK,STS and Kalameet are 6-B.

But not only that,you give Abyss Watchers the justification "Each Abyss Watcher has a fragment of the Blood of the wolf, which was powerful enought to link the first flame, which keeps the sun in existence" wich was left by Artorias who is 6-B.Nice.


"Armor of a knight tainted by the dark of the Abyss. The twilight blue tassel is damp, and will ever remain so.

A vanquished knight left behind only wolf's blood, and legacy of duty. The Undead Legion of Farron was formed to bear his torch, and the armor of these Abyss Watchers suggests their own eventual end."

"Greatsword of a knight tainted by the dark of the Abyss, and master of the wolf's blood of Farron."

4-C Kalameet or Nito?Nope.

4-C Solair or a single AW?Definetly reasonable and consistent.
 
I'm still upset about "Star Level=/=Destroy star".

Whether powering it or not translates to your energy attacks being that strong isn't what i'm upset about.

The idea that a person can have their attacks be imbued with energy that is potent enough to destroy X and not be at all capable of destroying X unless their attacks are condensing the AoE by default and they can't control it. Any character who has the AP has the DC for it by default unless their powers imply other possibilities.

I'm kind neutral on this tho.
 
Dark Souls 3's scaling is pretty damn inconsistent, epecially in early/mid-game areas

We have the Abyss Watchers, Yhorm and Aldrich ranked as 4-C and their mid-game, while the Ashen One is 6-B.

So we either upgrade mid-game Ashen One to 4-C or downgrade the lords of cinder
 
^The powerscaling is still inconsistent.

There are 2 ways to deal with this.

1.Upgrade almost everyone with strong soul to 4-C.

2.Downgrade everyone and agree that powering the sun does not translate to the AP.
 
No

The alternative and far more logical solution is to simply judge the boss(es) by their standing in the verse.

Why is this a seemingly hard concept?
 
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