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I still disagree with 6-B Dragons. There are far too many unknowns for us to say every single dragon scales to those bells.
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Dark Souls Dragons and God Tiers Revision
- Thread starter SheevShezarrine
- Start date
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- Tags
- dark souls
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I'm still against this being real light.
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And present the draft first.
I'm fine with Tier 4, that's been discussed, but Tier 6 is still extremely debatable.
I'm fine with Tier 4, that's been discussed, but Tier 6 is still extremely debatable.
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- Thread starter
- #46
The scaling is faulty, since the Dark Souls sun and its properties are pretty far removed from the real thing. Just because staff are tired of dealing with it doesn't mean there is no point to be had there. This is not some objectively incorrect assertion like 3-A DMC, there is discussion here, there is evidence for and against, and to treat it as a DMC sort of deal to satisfy the mods and spare their nerves a bit of chafing is to coddle at the expense of people who wish to air their honest doubts and propose their own ideas.Antvasima said:
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@Sheev This is the fourth thread like this with no different arguments presented that have not already been debated and debunked
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- #48
The spell has done lightning damage in all 3 games it's been in. Like hell it's an oversight.
I don't believe that qualifies. As if they were going to create an entirely new damage type for a single spell.
There were 2 other damage types they realistically could have gone with; magic and fire damage, the latter of which would outright supoort it being light since light-based weaponry causes damage via severe burning (that logic being wwhat makes Relativistic Zelda legit), and dealing magic damage would have lumped it together firmly with Divine Pillars of Light, at least establishing consistency in terms of the damage dealt by offensive "light-based" miracles. So, they didn't even have to make a new damage type just to establish it as an actual light-based attack
I don't believe that qualifies. As if they were going to create an entirely new damage type for a single spell.
There were 2 other damage types they realistically could have gone with; magic and fire damage, the latter of which would outright supoort it being light since light-based weaponry causes damage via severe burning (that logic being wwhat makes Relativistic Zelda legit), and dealing magic damage would have lumped it together firmly with Divine Pillars of Light, at least establishing consistency in terms of the damage dealt by offensive "light-based" miracles. So, they didn't even have to make a new damage type just to establish it as an actual light-based attack
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- #49
Because there are people who still see merit to the arguments, even if the higher-ups heartily disagree with themWeeklyBattles said:
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- #50
Several is a gross understatementSteven Pogi Paitao said:
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I agree with the speed values (I always felt it odd that it was considered light when it actually didn't exhibit the same properties as magical light)
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No. Sunlight Spear being magic =/= the sun is suddenly not a real sun. The argument is absurd.SheevShezarrine said:
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Welllll
Statement no
Sun clearly acting in non-sun-like ways yes
Or are we all forgetting that time it started bleeding then turned black?
Statement no
Sun clearly acting in non-sun-like ways yes
Or are we all forgetting that time it started bleeding then turned black?
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Also it came into existence woth the First Flame/Lords. Wasn't there in the Age of AncientsMonarch Laciel said:
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Suns being turned black is rather common in fiction. Vitiate's end goal was to do that to every star in the galaxy.
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When can the sun bleed or stop producing light without it being, I don't know, gone?!
If we have criteria for light and lightning, we should have criteria for the Sun and stars and stuff, shouldn't we?
I mean, I kinda am iffy on the idea of scaling offensive Spell/Energy attack AP to the stuff used to create storms in general too.
If we have criteria for light and lightning, we should have criteria for the Sun and stars and stuff, shouldn't we?
I mean, I kinda am iffy on the idea of scaling offensive Spell/Energy attack AP to the stuff used to create storms in general too.
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A common shared trope doesn't automatically make a fictional body called a sun an actual sun. It has to be shown to be a bona fide star first.Matthew Schroeder said:
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Magic mirror. Doesn't count
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Where are you getting the notion that magic automiatically discredits it being reflective?
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- #65
It also reflects non-light-based magic as though it is light. It makes no distinction between damage types, and also VBW rules on light/lasers go out of the way to state non-magical mirrors reflecting supposed light spells is legs to stand on for the attack actually being lightWeeklyBattles said:
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Can you stop insulting everything and everyone related to Dark Souls who doesn't agree with you?
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"abusing their power"
You mean disagreeing with you?
Seriously you've devolved into constantly complaining about Dark Souls but never bothering to actually make threads, it's getting annoying.
You mean disagreeing with you?
Seriously you've devolved into constantly complaining about Dark Souls but never bothering to actually make threads, it's getting annoying.
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I made 3 threads, you partook in them lmao, in none of those threads I got scans that proved what I wanted, and then they got so pathetic to demand scans to prove a negative. Seriously, It's a basic debating rule that the proof must be provided by the positive claim, which was not me. By since no one could prove it you just decided to lock all the threads and claim it as debunked.The Everlasting said:
Now please enlighten me, how is the fair to shut me down without even proving your point with the source material?
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You really should chill with this rude attitude. Like each thread of yours was arguing whether weather feats could scale to AP and stuff similar. Your points were argued back and your arguments weren't considered enough to counter the points against yours. By regular users I might add. So stop acting like Admins are abusing their power when you couldn't properly defend your case. No either watch your attitude or we could flat out ban you off the bat. Or you could argue like a normal person without being consistently rude to people who disagree. Understood?
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Dragonmasterxyz said:
My arguments weren't considered because you all ganged up on me and just told me that it's how it is, get used to it.
Lmao, I couldn't defend my case? They were the one that needed to provide proof not me. I mean shit, how hard is it to understand something so simple? you claim something you should be able to prove it with raw proof.
I am only rude because you all ignore the fundamentals of debating. Go ahead, ban me if you like, I only wanted to help, but since you seem to know everything I guess you can handle it all by yourself.
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So now I am interested. I'll go through all your threads fully and see if you were truly mistreated as you say you are.
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@Unholy Binding
You were nowhere near mistreated or insulted by any admins in the last thread. One user, not an admin or staff member, shouting back at you for the confrontational tone does not equate to any of the admins.
You have no reason to be so insulting or condescending to someone just because they disagree heavily with you or your original post. It's how life is. It's not about admins or staff members abusing their authority, it's about consensus. This is not, never will be the last time people are in disagreement with you on anything. Learn to deal with it and debate civilly instead of throwing your hands up and yelling to the end of the earth that you're being assaulted and spewing insults to every single user who thinks you're wrong.
You were nowhere near mistreated or insulted by any admins in the last thread. One user, not an admin or staff member, shouting back at you for the confrontational tone does not equate to any of the admins.
You have no reason to be so insulting or condescending to someone just because they disagree heavily with you or your original post. It's how life is. It's not about admins or staff members abusing their authority, it's about consensus. This is not, never will be the last time people are in disagreement with you on anything. Learn to deal with it and debate civilly instead of throwing your hands up and yelling to the end of the earth that you're being assaulted and spewing insults to every single user who thinks you're wrong.
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I admit I do apologize for shouting, I was ultimately no better in the long run.
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Ok. Let's cut it off now so we can keep this from being derailed.
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"Powering the sun does not give you the power to destroy the sun."
I should note that there is a difference between Attack Potency and Destructive Capabilities. Some one who is Star level doesn't actually have to be able to bust a sun to do so. So powering the sun does give you Star level AP, not Star level DC.
Anyway, your main issue is that a storm has to destroy a country to be country level. Something that is blatantly false if you look at other files that have storm feats. We mentioned this and this was your reply.
"Yes it does, creating a storm that does nothing can only be counted for range. By this logic, if I generate clouds that can cover the Entire planet does that give me planet level DC? No, because they are stationary clouds, just like the storm, it's irrelevant to attack power."
Weekly gives you a blatant example and a calc that proves how storms can be used for AP. Something that multiple verses, not just Dark Souls use. This was Weekly's comment.
"Actually depending on the speed at which you create them yes it can, Storm is Moon level for that kind of feat and i do believe there are people who are Planet level and above for doing something similar. Kyogre is Planet level for creating a planetary storm"
You ignore the blatant examples. You also ignore our standards completely. You assume tiers are just about busting or destroying something. However, we scale AP to things more than just busting something. This is something anyone on this site would tell you.
"Having country level attack power means you can destroy a country and it's mass, not create a storm that covers it. This only counts as weather manipulation."
This quote by you proves that you refuse to understand how things work here. We do not simply treat this a weather manipulation. But we also use the energy required to make the storm as well. If you look at the calcs, you will see this.
Weekly even gives you another source for how storm calcs work. Yet you ignore him and continue to deny it. At this point the evidence for it is in your face, but you blatantly ignore it.
This is what Weekly posted on the thread. https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:ArbitraryNumbers/Standard_Storm_calc
Your reply,
"You don't seem to understand that creating a storm that covers one part of the area is not enough to destroy it. Just because someone can create such a storm doesn't place him on a level where he can destroy landmasses of the same length. Because again, this was weather manipulatuion, something that changed the weather not produced country busting energy."
This is your comment about storm feats even later in that thread.
"As I've said before, and I'll say it again, a storm of a certain size doesn't destory landmass on the same size. The only way a storm would have the same DC is if it would release lightning from every part of it or release force strong enough to do so. When has a storm been strong enough to level entire towns? Much less countries?"
Despite the fact that they had given evidence to why it scales to AP. But you blatantly ignored it. Something you continue to do over the course of the entire thread.
"Yeah yeah, I can drag clouds around the sky, this means I'm strong enough to affect an entire country along with it's mass, wait... Not just affect I can destroy it, makes complete sense."
Matt posts this
"Clouds have a deceptively high-amount of mass. To move such mass at Massively Hypersonic speeds require a fuckton of speed. It is basic physics."
You continue to miss the point and continue to assume AP=DC. You are still blatantly ignoring everything. Or just refusing to understand anything because screw it you really need that downgrade.
""To move such mass at Massively Hypersonic speeds require a fuckton of speed."
Ohhh yeah, it's no longer attack power, now we are talking about speed already.
Basic physichs you are talking about?
I could move a heavy rock, but I sure couldn't destroy it.
You do realize Clouds don't compare to landmass. An energy to destroy something needs to be far greater than energy than merely drags around something that is not close to the scale of that which must be destroyed."
Do I even need to go over everything else in that thread? It's right here. https://vsbattles.com/vsbattles/1523686.
I should note that there is a difference between Attack Potency and Destructive Capabilities. Some one who is Star level doesn't actually have to be able to bust a sun to do so. So powering the sun does give you Star level AP, not Star level DC.
Anyway, your main issue is that a storm has to destroy a country to be country level. Something that is blatantly false if you look at other files that have storm feats. We mentioned this and this was your reply.
"Yes it does, creating a storm that does nothing can only be counted for range. By this logic, if I generate clouds that can cover the Entire planet does that give me planet level DC? No, because they are stationary clouds, just like the storm, it's irrelevant to attack power."
Weekly gives you a blatant example and a calc that proves how storms can be used for AP. Something that multiple verses, not just Dark Souls use. This was Weekly's comment.
"Actually depending on the speed at which you create them yes it can, Storm is Moon level for that kind of feat and i do believe there are people who are Planet level and above for doing something similar. Kyogre is Planet level for creating a planetary storm"
You ignore the blatant examples. You also ignore our standards completely. You assume tiers are just about busting or destroying something. However, we scale AP to things more than just busting something. This is something anyone on this site would tell you.
"Having country level attack power means you can destroy a country and it's mass, not create a storm that covers it. This only counts as weather manipulation."
This quote by you proves that you refuse to understand how things work here. We do not simply treat this a weather manipulation. But we also use the energy required to make the storm as well. If you look at the calcs, you will see this.
Weekly even gives you another source for how storm calcs work. Yet you ignore him and continue to deny it. At this point the evidence for it is in your face, but you blatantly ignore it.
This is what Weekly posted on the thread. https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:ArbitraryNumbers/Standard_Storm_calc
Your reply,
"You don't seem to understand that creating a storm that covers one part of the area is not enough to destroy it. Just because someone can create such a storm doesn't place him on a level where he can destroy landmasses of the same length. Because again, this was weather manipulatuion, something that changed the weather not produced country busting energy."
This is your comment about storm feats even later in that thread.
"As I've said before, and I'll say it again, a storm of a certain size doesn't destory landmass on the same size. The only way a storm would have the same DC is if it would release lightning from every part of it or release force strong enough to do so. When has a storm been strong enough to level entire towns? Much less countries?"
Despite the fact that they had given evidence to why it scales to AP. But you blatantly ignored it. Something you continue to do over the course of the entire thread.
"Yeah yeah, I can drag clouds around the sky, this means I'm strong enough to affect an entire country along with it's mass, wait... Not just affect I can destroy it, makes complete sense."
Matt posts this
"Clouds have a deceptively high-amount of mass. To move such mass at Massively Hypersonic speeds require a fuckton of speed. It is basic physics."
You continue to miss the point and continue to assume AP=DC. You are still blatantly ignoring everything. Or just refusing to understand anything because screw it you really need that downgrade.
""To move such mass at Massively Hypersonic speeds require a fuckton of speed."
Ohhh yeah, it's no longer attack power, now we are talking about speed already.
Basic physichs you are talking about?
I could move a heavy rock, but I sure couldn't destroy it.
You do realize Clouds don't compare to landmass. An energy to destroy something needs to be far greater than energy than merely drags around something that is not close to the scale of that which must be destroyed."
Do I even need to go over everything else in that thread? It's right here. https://vsbattles.com/vsbattles/1523686.
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@Unholy
We've already had a huge discussion about this.
Creating and spreading storms requires kinetic/latent energy, which is measured in joules/watts, values that can be converted straight into tons of TNT just like any explosion or crater creation feats.
Said energy can be condensed and applied over a specific range, which qualifies as Attack Potency. There is a difference between Attack Potency and Destructive Capacity. No storm creator can create blasts wide enough to engulf countries, but they produce that much energy over a condensed range.
An example would be Vegeta's Big Bang Attack, which is officially noted to be able to condense ki into a specific range, limiting its Destructive Capacity to city level. In that case, Vegeta is able to exert planet busting energy over a city wide range.
It's the same here.
We've already had a huge discussion about this.
Creating and spreading storms requires kinetic/latent energy, which is measured in joules/watts, values that can be converted straight into tons of TNT just like any explosion or crater creation feats.
Said energy can be condensed and applied over a specific range, which qualifies as Attack Potency. There is a difference between Attack Potency and Destructive Capacity. No storm creator can create blasts wide enough to engulf countries, but they produce that much energy over a condensed range.
An example would be Vegeta's Big Bang Attack, which is officially noted to be able to condense ki into a specific range, limiting its Destructive Capacity to city level. In that case, Vegeta is able to exert planet busting energy over a city wide range.
It's the same here.
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Now you are just cherry picking the most convenient comments. When I asked for proof I got none, it's that simple, their job to hand me over scans not mine in this case.Dragonmasterxyz said:
Now I don't get this, are you saying I can attack with the power of the sun or the power to destroy a sun but still not being able to destroy it yet still is accepted as star level feat?
I already debunked the storm thing, if the storm does move at such a speed, and such power then it is bound to destroy a lot. You put it on attack potency, which is destruction. The storm feat had no destructive properties what so ever and it still gets used for scaling and everything, not to mention they all automatically assumed the being was doing it not the bell which is not counted out because there is no context to deny this.
