CW Speed Revisions

[The_Everlasting]

Hello.

In "The Flash" (Part of the larger Arrowverse), Barry Allen is stated to have an official top speed of Mach 3.3, Mach 13.2 under special situations. This is all fine and dandy, except he has numerous speed feats far above this.

Here are some examples:

http://www.narutoforums.com/xfa-blog-entry/flah-cw-bit-feats-1.36259/

Barry searches for Zoom. Mach 20.56

http://www.narutoforums.com/xfa-blog-entry/more-dctv-speed-calcs.36415/

Kara perceives bullets in slow motion. Mach 28.5

Also Barry fetching a meteorite. Mach 28.2 to Mach 425.5

http://www.narutoforums.com/xfa-blog-entry/dctv-calc-flash-and-supergirl-go-cross-country.36270/

Kara flies from NY to Ohio. Mach 54.59

Also Barry running cross-country. Mach 392.2

http://www.narutoforums.com/xfa-blog-entry/dctv-calc-clark-and-kara-save-space-shuttle.36420/

Kara and Clark crossing at least half a country. Mach 65.998

http://www.narutoforums.com/xfa-blo...e-bar-barry-laps-central-city-tv-flash.36277/

Barry lapping Central City. Mach 151.93 to Mach 710.28

http://www.narutoforums.com/xfa-blog-entry/setting-the-bar-barry-dodges-lightning-tv-flash.36222/

Barry dodging lightning. Mach 1,086.9

http://www.narutoforums.com/xfa-blog-entry/dctv-sub-relativistic-reactions.36449/

Barry perceiving lightning in slow motion. 0.01c to 0.65c

The last two calcs are probably outliers, but Barry is consistently above Mach 3.3 (Note that he's casually as fast as Kara, so all her speed feats scale to him). I think that Massively Hypersonic or Massively Hypersonic+ are most apropriate, but I'll let others decide on what they think is best.

Just ask yourselves this, what is more logical? Taking the author's word for it (Note that this kind of thing is so common that there's a trope for it), or the over half a dozen feats?

 

[Joseph619]

I would pick the author in this case, they clearly do no want Barry to go beyond Mach 3 or 13 as of now. I am sure they also know basic math but their intention is pretty obvious in this case. I disagree with the upgrade personally

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

I agree with this 100%.

 

[The_Everlasting]

Whether or not they wanted Barry to be that fast is irrelevant if he has a lot of feats that are greatly above it.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

I would pick the author in this case, they clearly do no want Barry to go beyond Mach 3 or 13 as of now. I am sure they also know basic math but their intention is pretty obvious in this case. I disagree with the upgrade personally

Authors thinking Barry is only Mach 13 is just like, their opinion. It's clearly wrong.

 

[Promestein]

I'd go with the feats.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

Same. A single statement vs so many feats is kinda ridiculous.

 

[Amelia_Lonelyheart]

I agree. We only typically use statements if it's not contradicted by feats, however, the Mach 3 statement is contradicted by several feats, therefore feats take priority.

By the way, OBD uses a different speed for Lightning than us, so the feats can be simply convereted. Using the MHS+ end by Sloth.

1 / 440,000 = 0.00000227272 seconds

3.83 Meters / 0.00000227272 seconds = 1,685,205.39 m/s. Mach 4953

 

[RadicalMrR]

Im against using author intent, if we go by how strong/fast they think/want their characters to be, 80% of the wiki would top out at like 8-C with Supersonic speed.

I agree with changing his speed to one of the ones above.

 

[Ryukama]

I would pick the author in this case, they clearly do no want Barry to go beyond Mach 3 or 13 as of now. I am sure they also know basic math but their intention is pretty obvious in this case. I disagree with the upgrade personally

Guess it's time for Moon level DB Roshi, Relativistic+ Comic Flash, us to count Erza's meteor feat and 2-A Elder God Demonbane.

Whether or not the authors wanted Flash to be beyond Mach 13 is completely irrelevant when he is beyond Mach 13. Feats take precedence over statements and when there are at least 9 feats vs a single statement, it's clear which rating to go with.

 

[Byakuya_"Senbonzakura"_Kuchiki]

Yeah I agree with the changes as well.

 

[Kevyn_S._de_Andrade]

I definitely agree with this.

 

[Davidsteel1]

I'm gonna have to disagree here. Ignoring the creators intent will definitely create massive inconsistencies in the future. Say we place the Flash at mhs but his established limit is Mach 13, if the show writers then generally place his showings in the Mach 13 range would we then classify it as PIS when in fact the feats would fit in with WOG? And I'm not saying that the above feats never happened but shouldn't they be considered as inconsistencies; crossover events like the one with supergirl should be taken with a grain of salt considering that episodes such as those are essentially meant to be fan service and the original lighting dodging feat would be increadibly inconsistent as even in later episodes he does struck by lightning.

 

[Ryukama]

If you care about the creators' intent not being discarded, you came to the wrong site lol. Just the very concept of taking peoples' characters, judging their power, calculating what they do and pitting them in death fights against other characters goes against what the authors intend.

Again, 9 feats vs 1 statement. The WoG is the inconsistency, not the plethora of feats much greater.

Also to anyone who thinks discarding authorial intent in favor of one's own interpretation of a work or correcting an author when they're clearly wrong is just a wacky idea made up by VS debaters. Please view these pages.

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

Just gonna remain neutral on this, cw flash is a headache to deal with, the authors clearly don't know how fast their character is.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/DeathOfTheAuthor

Read up on Death of the Author. This is something we all use when Versus Debating, and you should be familiar with it as well. The moment the author publishes his fiction, it is no longer his. It is for the viewers to interpret and analyze.

The author's thoughts and statements are thus not some absolute Word of God, but rather just one opinion are amidst many others, and if we find them to be unsubstantial based on our own analysis of his work, then his opinion will be discarded and ignored.

 

[Legion350]

I agree with Celestial.

 

[Joseph619]

Guess it's time for Moon level DB Roshi, Relativistic+ Comic Flash, us to count Erza's meteor feat and 2-A Elder God Demonbane.

Whether or not the authors wanted Flash to be beyond Mach 13 is completely irrelevant when, he is beyond Mach 13. Feats take precedence over statements and when there are at least 9 feats vs a single statement, it's clear which rating to go with.

Well the numbers used in the show are very useful in scaling characters despite inconsistencies. If you take arbitrary feats it will become harder to scale since Barry's speed changes every episode. You can say his feats are highly dependent on willpower and PIS. And unlike most heroes Barry barely gets stronger over time (he is still the same as he was in season 2)

 

[Davidsteel1]

@Ryu I do realise that generally the intent of the author isn't taken into account; understandably so and in most cases I'd agree with u. But the issue here is that accepting these results would only lead to massive inconsistencies, we accept this but then the main characters more "important" feats in the story would not exceed what the author has stated, but then feats which are considerably less important would then give us these massive results, in shows like these I'm just suggesting that emphasis be placed on the prominent feats not the minor ones- that likely do not match likely due to the massive effort it would take to make sure that literally every clip of Barry running matches the established limits set on the characters (keep in mind likely over 50% of this show is the dude just running) they only have so much resources and time

 

[LordXcano]

The main problem people seem to have here is that the writers will write most of his feats to be Mach 13~ or whatever. But here's the thing:

If they do that, then you should surely be able to pull up enough low-showings to disprove the above calcs. Then he would be Mach 13 again. Up until then though, I'd say he's Massively Hypersonic. Any above that, I have to admit, does seem a bit outlier-y at this point.

 

[Ryukama]

@Joseph If almost every single relevant Flash feat goes against that statement, no it isn't good for scaling. And many characters have showings that vary greatly in power. We just find a decent medium for the most part. That's not very hard to do.

Also do you really think Toriyama didn't intend Roshi to be a moon buster? Do you actually agree with the comic that Flash's trillions c feats are only Relativistic+? Do you really think the author intended Erza's meteor feat to be discarded as "PIS" and treated as if it never ever happened? Do you think we should make EGD 2-A despite literally everything laughably going against that?

If the answer to those things is no, then same goes here. We discard author intent all the time. The very nature of this site ***** on author intent. It doesn't matter what the authors want, Flash is faster than Mach 13. End of.

@David Please provide actual examples of feats contradicting the ones in the OP and being closer to the WoG. Ever's given 9 feats much higher than Mach 13, which is more than enough to bump off a single statement.

 

[Joseph619]

Well then I guess that would be reasonable. However scaling is a complete mess in CW Flash since Barry's power keep fluctuating because of his emotions

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

He has 4 triple-digit mach feats and 1 quadruple-didigt mach feats.

 

[Davidsteel1]

@Ryu & Lord while I cannot show direct links at the time I can pull feats straight from memory; 1) during the initial introduction of "Grinder" a fairly important character to Barry's character early in the 1st season it was explicitly stated that in order to cause significant damage Barry needed to be moving just above Mach 1 a statement that as far as I'm aware has not been contradicted by any calc 2) just about every other appearance of the elder Stine brother (Martin I believe his name was) Barry never showed himself capable of dodging his lightning point blank; the episodes where he escapes Barry and co transferring him and other metas and during his team up with the riddler come to mind 3) the introductory episode of the villainess Trajectory; once again it is established that in order to jump the section of the bridge she brought down he would need to be moving just above Mach 3 IIRC , once again another significant feat that I personally have not seen any contradicting calcs. These are just some feats that I'm pulling off the top of my head and there are likely more.

 

[Davidsteel1]

Apologies for the block of text

 

[LordXcano]

@David

1. I know about Grinder, and that was indeed the first time he went supersonic. However, I don't think any of these calcs are from before then, and he only got faster over time.

2. Pretty sure OP said that he was pretty sure the lightning-timing was an outlier, and I agreed

3. The Mach 3 thing is contradicted by the several calcs above, that's what this thread is about

 

[Davidsteel1]

@Lord apologies I should have clarified; calcs in reference to these specific feats, has someone calced the bridge jumping scene has anything above ~Mach 3

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Instead of bringing up one feat to disprove about 10 better feats, why don't you disprove them?

 

[LordXcano]

@David

If anything calc'ing the bridge jump would be below Mach 3. Mach 3 should've sent him careening into the atmosphere. But that's not particularly relevant. It's just 1 low-showing compared to, what, 6? 9 better feats?

 

[Davidsteel1]

All I'm trying to say is the flashes feats are generally inconsistent, but when it comes to analysing his progression based on the more important feats story wise we at least get consistent numbers and I feel using those as a point of reference would be far more substantive than basing his upgrade on "flash running clip #528" or something that would contradict the story. Isn't that y feats such as Erza's meteor bust is considered an outlier? It was inconsistent and didn't fit in with her previously established limits (couldn't take a casual blow from a superior character but tanks their best move) it's the same here Barry struggles with Mach 13 but because we have a quadruple digit calc we abandon everything else?

 

[LordXcano]

Difference here is that Erza didn't bust that meteor 9 times.

 

[Sera_EX]

Author intent means nothing. Otherwise we'd have Planet level final form Frieza. These feats are clearly above what was intended.

It isn't our fault. Authors just need to be more careful. For example, if you don't want a character to be faster than supersonic, don't have then outpacing Mach 10 jets.

 

[Cropfist]

I agree with the upgrade.

 

[Davidsteel1]

@Matthew I'm not a calcer; dropped maths at high school and even then I was only average at it, so attempting to mathematically disprove it would not accomplish anything. But I can spot problems and based on the knowledge I've gathered on this site, simply accepting these calls just like that would be a problem

 

[Davidsteel1]

@Lord no she didn't, but she is infamous for doing stuff she shouldn't be able to... constantly

 

[LordGriffin1000]

I'm not disagreeing with the feats but what about him getting tagged by Gorrila grodd who is a normal gorilla with telepathy and got hit by another Gorrila in that coliseum, killer frost, captain cold with his cold gun, BEES! Yes robotic bees manage to mess him up but he could see bullets and lightning in slow motion

He also needs to get a running start to accelerate to mach 1 to hit Gurder, Gorilla grodd who manage to grab in at that speed

Eabard Thon who is also on the flashes league was hit by captain cold's gun in The Legends

I know this isn't much but I have a bad memory so I can't remember if there are others but he has been tagged lots of times by metahumans that don't have speed unless your all these guys are on his level, LOL Mach 20 bees

Like I said I don't disagree since he dose have multiple feats but the fact that he's that fast but gets beaten by much slower foes is just bad writing

Anyway I just wanted to make it clear he's speed has fluctuated at time

 

[LordXcano]

@LordGrif

Can't comment on many of your points but

• Gorilla Grodd who is a normal gorilla with telepathy

• He needs a running start to hit Mach 1, Gorilla Grodd managed to grab him at that speed

So, wouldn't Grodd not be a normal gorilla by virtue of tagging someone who was moving explicitly supersonic?

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Gorilla Grodd can tag The Flash, just like the in the comics, although a lot of PIS is usually involved. Grodd isn't just a normal Gorilla. He has numerous powers such as super strength, speed, etc.

 

[CrimsonStarFallen]

I agree with the upgrades,after all 9 feats>1 statement.

 

[LordGriffin1000]

@LordXcano Well it depends on how you look at some could say the flash got tagged and grabbed a normal gorilla with telepathy and the gorilla in the stadium others would say those two gorillas are supersonic but since they only enhanced his intelligence and said nothing about his overall physical abilities I assumed he was a normal gorilla but like I said I have a bad memory so I don't know if Grodd has any good feats

I was just bringing up moments in the series where hes speed fluxes but I never said hes not that fast I'm just neutral really I don't mind how hes rated.