Cursed Energy as a UES (Jujutsu Kaisen)

[Duedate8898]

Hello there, this thread is all about getting Cursed Energy (CE) accepted as a universal energy system.

For that reason, I'll be building it up from a Limited Energy System towards a Universal Energy System. Also spoiler warnings for anyone not caught up to the current chapter of the manga.

Cursed Energy as a Limited Energy System​

CE is utilized within all Curse Techniques (CT), the series making the point that cursed energy is the fuel for CT. To be more exact, CE is likened to electricity while CTs are the electrical appliances.

Most sorcerer's possess a single CT, with the variety of attacks/moves derived from it being noted as extensions/reinterpretations and we do see that sorcerers are able to choose how much energy goes into their techniques through multiple means.
One, is through employing hand signs or chants that they've removed in mastering their CT in order to create a ritual which boost the strength of it as seen with Gojo and Sukuna

Another is through binding vows, a self-imposed law in which the user offers up something in exchnage for something else, such as Nanami with Overtime (limiting his CE usage during work hours and increasing it during Overtime hours) and Revealing His Hand (devolving the nature of his CT to his opponent) for his usage of Collapse

And finally a sorcerer can just choose to pour as much as possible into a CT as marked by Maximum Output/Stack techniques

As seen with Gojo, Uruame, Choso, and Yuta/Angel, or without mentions of Maximum Output/Stack as seen with the likes of Yuki in her final move. As a related bit, Sukuna with Cleave will adjust his output so he cuts cleanly through a target.

We also see that people who possess the same abilities can get drastically different results due to a difference in their output, illustrating that no CT should have a set amount of CE that can go into it.

Choso impressed Noritoshi with how high his compression with his Blood Manipulation is in comparison to when Noritoshi does the same move. And it is stated that Piercing Blood can be compressed to different amounts which is a techinque that relies on cursed energy to do this compression.
Sukuna's Ten Shadows are both larger and far more powerful than Megumi's of the same variant, and Sukuna can even show further power with a weaker form of these shadows than Megumi is able to with the stronger versions.
Mai is exhausted after creating a single bullet, whereas Yoruzu can create insect power-armor and keep going with ease.
Hana nearly tears apart Sukuna with her curse technique on first usage, but deals mostly superficial damage after losing her arm and growing weaker.

Cursed Energy as a Non-Physical Energy System​

I actually don't have anything to say here as everything said here will simply be restated in the CE as a UES section, so I see little point in saying it now. Especially as Cursed Energy doesn't really have many other applications of CE that aren't overtly tied to being physical.

Cursed Energy as a Universal Energy System​

So the biggest thing to demonstrate here is that the same amount of energy can go into CE Reinforcement/Output.
First thing first, someone Cursed Energy output can be applied not just to their CT but towards their physical feats too.

As seen with Yuta's battle in his Colony during the Culling Games, we're shown Yuta doing a blast of cursed energy with a swing of his katana where Ryu notes Yuta output is nothing special when he's using cursed energy blast and when they fight up close later, Yuta talks about Ryu's output being high even though its only punches and kicks being exchanged.

We then see output mentioned again when Hakari battles with Kashimo and Hakari's high output is noted to negate the effect of Kashimo's CE, this marks output in reference to defense.

For CT, we see output directly tied to CT's in Gojo's fight with Sukuna and Sukuna's battle with all the sorcerer's aftward.

Gojo's output affects both his CT as Red and Blue are now weaker but also his ability to regenerate. He then hits a blackflash and recovers his regeneration and through chants further recovers the strength of his Curse Techinques.

And with Sukuna, as the cast battles against him, he's constantly having his output lowered by Yuji so whereas before it's established that he could punch through someone and that taking his CT up close was fatal, after some strikes lowering his output his punches don't pierce through opponents even as black flashes and things like Cleave and Dismantle are tanked with little issue and as he recovers output the inverse becomes true once more.

Nanami also demonstrates that as he goes into Overtime his CT isn't just amped so too are his physical strikes as Mahito notes Nanami's overall CE has grown stronger.

People can also choose much like with Stack/Maximum Output for CTs to imbue their maximum amount of CE into either striking opponents or in tanking attacks as Yuji and Todo display in their final fight with Mahito. And as shown with the explanation given when Yuji encounters Yuta for the first time, a sorcerer can change how much energy is amping their physicals and it is a tactic to keep this amount even throughout the body up until an attack is to land. We are also shown that Binding Vows can increase physical toughness with CE through both Hakari and Cursed Naoya as both undertake binding vows of such a nature.

Finally, while I'm not sure the fully logic as to why this can serve as proof, we also know that someone have their CE/CT removed kills them as stated within the Culling Games. The background is that there are two rules within the culling games that if not followed end with something called CT Removal. Shoko theorizes this might lead to death, which Tengen directly confirms when explaining Kenjaku's true objective to the cast.

With all of that stated, I hope I've demonstrated why CE should be treated as a Universal Energy system. However before I'm completely done with this OP I will mention potential counterpoints to be made.

Ryu is the only sorcerer capable of maintaining the same output with or without his CT.​

I believe showings like of Sukuna being able to defend and tank against Gojo's CT Blue Enhanced Punches but still dodging Gojo's attacks even when Gojo lacks his CT and Yuji tanking both Sukuna's normal punches and his dismantle slashes within the same attacks demonstrates that while CT output is higher, it is still relative to output through physical attacks within the series.

Of course, the most direct example to show this is through Ryu as well. As while he is noted to be the only sorcerer capable of maintaining the same output, Yuta in his battle with him is noted to only be slightly weaker in his output. And since Yuta's output in this instance is only him manipulating raw cursed energy, not CT, this further shows that the difference in output between CT and raw usage isn't particularly large.


No other form of pushback currently comes to mind, but if it pops up it can be handled throughout the thread.

That's my OP.

Agree:
Neutral:
Disagree:

 

[CloverDragon03]

Ryu is the only sorcerer capable of maintaining the same output with or without his CT.
I believe showings like of Sukuna being able to defend and tank against Gojo's CT Blue Enhanced Punches but still dodging Gojo's attacks even when Gojo lacks his CT and Yuji tanking both Sukuna's normal punches and his dismantle slashes within the same attacks demonstrates that while CT output is higher, it is still relative to output through physical attacks within the series.

Of course, the most direct example to show this is through Ryu as well. As while he is noted to be the only sorcerer capable of maintaining the same output, Yuta in his battle with him is noted to only be slightly weaker in his output. And since Yuta's output in this instance is only him manipulating raw cursed energy, not CT, this further shows that the difference in output between CT and raw usage isn't particularly large.

Gonna be honest here... I don't think this explanation actually explains away anything. Ryu, to me, kinda just kills any chance of JJK's Cursed Energy being a UES. If the output of CE vs. the output of physicals isn't one-to-one, it doesn't qualify. Yuta being any amount weaker in his output, for instance, kills this

 

[ChosenOrDeath]

What about Hanami being notably more durable than Jogo despite Jogo being comparable, if not stronger?

 

[Duedate8898]

Gonna be honest here... I don't think this explanation actually explains away anything. Ryu, to me, kinda just kills any chance of JJK's Cursed Energy being a UES. If the output of CE vs. the output of physicals isn't one-to-one, it doesn't qualify. Yuta being any amount weaker in his output, for instance, kills this

The point there is that Yuta's output is only slightly weaker than Ryu's but he's still comparable to Ryu throughout his entire fight. If there wasn't any scaling possible between output with CTs and Output without them, then Yuta's raw output shouldn't be able to compare to Ryu's.

Like, UES doesn't say exact same amount of Output, it says similar amounts of output between attacks.

Being one to one has never been requirement in order for a verse to qualify. And I don't imagine any verse with UES has such specificity in the first place

 

[Duedate8898]

What about Hanami being notably more durable than Jogo despite Jogo being comparable, if not stronger?

Jogo being stronger than Hanami is based on technicality as stated in the scan listed on the profile, as it's based on their elemental match-up.

 

[CloverDragon03]

UES doesn't say similar output tho, it says that physical attacks should scale linearly with energy attacks. Ryu being the only character that can have the same output with CE vs. without CE is legitimately a massive anti-feat against CE being a UES

 

[LIFE_OF_KING]

I wont debate but I always thought to take in consideration the statament of Higuruma saying that if you remove the CT of someone, the fundamental level of CE control get weaker. So if someone lose the CT, like after a domain, the output will also get weaker

 

[Guacamolefletcher]

Hello there, this thread is all about getting Cursed Energy (CE) accepted as a universal energy system.

For that reason, I'll be building it up from a Limited Energy System towards a Universal Energy System. Also spoiler warnings for anyone not caught up to the current chapter of the manga.

Cursed Energy as a Limited Energy System​

CE is utilized within all Curse Techniques (CT), the series making the point that cursed energy is the fuel for CT. To be more exact, CE is likened to electricity while CTs are the electrical appliances.

Most sorcerer's possess a single CT, with the variety of attacks/moves derived from it being noted as extensions/reinterpretations and we do see that sorcerers are able to choose how much energy goes into their techniques through multiple means.
One, is through employing hand signs or chants that they've removed in mastering their CT in order to create a ritual which boost the strength of it as seen with Gojo and Sukuna

Another is through binding vows, a self-imposed law in which the user offers up something in exchnage for something else, such as Nanami with Overtime (limiting his CE usage during work hours and increasing it during Overtime hours) and Revealing His Hand (devolving the nature of his CT to his opponent) for his usage of Collapse

And finally a sorcerer can just choose to pour as much as possible into a CT as marked by Maximum Output/Stack techniques

As seen with Gojo, Uruame, Choso, and Yuta/Angel, or without mentions of Maximum Output/Stack as seen with the likes of Yuki in her final move. As a related bit, Sukuna with Cleave will adjust his output so he cuts cleanly through a target.

We also see that people who possess the same abilities can get drastically different results due to a difference in their output, illustrating that no CT should have a set amount of CE that can go into it.

Choso impressed Noritoshi with how high his compression with his Blood Manipulation is in comparison to when Noritoshi does the same move. And it is stated that Piercing Blood can be compressed to different amounts which is a techinque that relies on cursed energy to do this compression.
Sukuna's Ten Shadows are both larger and far more powerful than Megumi's of the same variant, and Sukuna can even show further power with a weaker form of these shadows than Megumi is able to with the stronger versions.
Mai is exhausted after creating a single bullet, whereas Yoruzu can create insect power-armor and keep going with ease.
Hana nearly tears apart Sukuna with her curse technique on first usage, but deals mostly superficial damage after losing her arm and growing weaker.

Cursed Energy as a Non-Physical Energy System​

I actually don't have anything to say here as everything said here will simply be restated in the CE as a UES section, so I see little point in saying it now. Especially as Cursed Energy doesn't really have many other applications of CE that aren't overtly tied to being physical.

Cursed Energy as a Universal Energy System​

So the biggest thing to demonstrate here is that the same amount of energy can go into CE Reinforcement/Output.
First thing first, someone Cursed Energy output can be applied not just to their CT but towards their physical feats too.

As seen with Yuta's battle in his Colony during the Culling Games, we're shown Yuta doing a blast of cursed energy with a swing of his katana where Ryu notes Yuta output is nothing special when he's using cursed energy blast and when they fight up close later, Yuta talks about Ryu's output being high even though its only punches and kicks being exchanged.

We then see output mentioned again when Hakari battles with Kashimo and Hakari's high output is noted to negate the effect of Kashimo's CE, this marks output in reference to defense.

For CT, we see output directly tied to CT's in Gojo's fight with Sukuna and Sukuna's battle with all the sorcerer's aftward.

Gojo's output affects both his CT as Red and Blue are now weaker but also his ability to regenerate. He then hits a blackflash and recovers his regeneration and through chants further recovers the strength of his Curse Techinques.

And with Sukuna, as the cast battles against him, he's constantly having his output lowered by Yuji so whereas before it's established that he could punch through someone and that taking his CT up close was fatal, after some strikes lowering his output his punches don't pierce through opponents even as black flashes and things like Cleave and Dismantle are tanked with little issue and as he recovers output the inverse becomes true once more.

Nanami also demonstrates that as he goes into Overtime his CT isn't just amped so too are his physical strikes as Mahito notes Nanami's overall CE has grown stronger.

People can also choose much like with Stack/Maximum Output for CTs to imbue their maximum amount of CE into either striking opponents or in tanking attacks as Yuji and Todo display in their final fight with Mahito. And as shown with the explanation given when Yuji encounters Yuta for the first time, a sorcerer can change how much energy is amping their physicals and it is a tactic to keep this amount even throughout the body up until an attack is to land. We are also shown that Binding Vows can increase physical toughness with CE through both Hakari and Cursed Naoya as both undertake binding vows of such a nature.

Finally, while I'm not sure the fully logic as to why this can serve as proof, we also know that someone have their CE/CT removed kills them as stated within the Culling Games. The background is that there are two rules within the culling games that if not followed end with something called CT Removal. Shoko theorizes this might lead to death, which Tengen directly confirms when explaining Kenjaku's true objective to the cast.

With all of that stated, I hope I've demonstrated why CE should be treated as a Universal Energy system. However before I'm completely done with this OP I will mention potential counterpoints to be made.

Ryu is the only sorcerer capable of maintaining the same output with or without his CT.​

I believe showings like of Sukuna being able to defend and tank against Gojo's CT Blue Enhanced Punches but still dodging Gojo's attacks even when Gojo lacks his CT and Yuji tanking both Sukuna's normal punches and his dismantle slashes within the same attacks demonstrates that while CT output is higher, it is still relative to output through physical attacks within the series.

Of course, the most direct example to show this is through Ryu as well. As while he is noted to be the only sorcerer capable of maintaining the same output, Yuta in his battle with him is noted to only be slightly weaker in his output. And since Yuta's output in this instance is only him manipulating raw cursed energy, not CT, this further shows that the difference in output between CT and raw usage isn't particularly large.


No other form of pushback currently comes to mind, but if it pops up it can be handled throughout the thread.

That's my OP.

Agree:
Neutral:
Disagree:

I want to point out one of the implications of the electricity = CE, and CT = appliance analogy.

With a perfect CE output technique, 100% of the CE is used in the attack potency, while others have a lesser level of “efficiency,” hence having a higher level of CE output for someone like Ryu should mean higher energy output / AP compared to people with less “energy efficient” cursed techniques used by someone with a lesser CE output

 

[Duedate8898]

UES doesn't say similar output tho, it says that physical attacks should scale linearly with energy attacks. Ryu being the only character that can have the same output with CE vs. without CE is legitimately a massive anti-feat against CE being a UES

Clover, if you go further down on the page, you'll see underneath the first explanation going into UES it says: If they have other spells, like for example water blades, they would be assumed to be able to output similar attack power with those spells.

And furthermore, when going into proving whether or not something is any of the three listed systems none of the requirements are that you need it to be 1-1. In fact, all we get is that in limited systems you have to prove that a similar amount of energy has to go into different attacks.

I feel like you're really getting hung up on something that isn't meant to be a hangup.

 

[CloverDragon03]

Clover, if you go further down on the page, you'll see underneath the first explanation going into UES it says: If they have other spells, like for example water blades, they would be assumed to be able to output similar attack power with those spells.

That's talking about spells other than the one calculated to be a certain potency, and how these other attacks will simply be assumed to have that level of power. We shouldn't assume this, though, if there's a contradiction

And furthermore, when going into proving whether or not something is any of the three listed systems none of the requirements are that you need it to be 1-1. In fact, all we get is that in limited systems you have to prove that a similar amount of energy has to go into different attacks.

I feel like you're really getting hung up on something that isn't meant to be a hangup.

We see this in our existing UES's though. The physicals are at the same level as the energy attacks, but here, we're learning that Ryu is the only one that can do this. That's a contradiction to me.

So atm I disagree with Cursed Energy being a UES

 

[JnSteHar002]

Following and supporting so far

 

[Eclipso]

The point there is that Yuta's output is only slightly weaker than Ryu's but he's still comparable to Ryu throughout his entire fight. If there wasn't any scaling possible between output with CTs and Output without them, then Yuta's raw output shouldn't be able to compare to Ryu's.

Like, UES doesn't say exact same amount of Output, it says similar amounts of output between attacks.

Being one to one has never been requirement in order for a verse to qualify. And I don't imagine any verse with UES has such specificity in the first place

Yuta’s output was indeed not relative to Ryu’s. What was relative was Yuta+Awakened Rika’s output. When Yuta walked away, and it was just awakened Rika, the blast was only slightly weaker.

 

[Duedate8898]

That's talking about spells other than the one calculated to be a certain potency, and how these other attacks will simply be assumed to have that level of power. We shouldn't assume this, though, if there's a contradiction

And as I said, when going further into actual meeting the criteria never is said that there has to be a 1-1 amount of power stated to go between attacks. It's just says similar amounts

We see this in our existing UES's though. The physicals are at the same level as the energy attacks, but here, we're learning that Ryu is the only one that can do this. That's a contradiction to me.

So atm I disagree with Cursed Energy being a UES

Please provide an example of any of the UES which displays that there is a 1-1 energy comparison between the different abilities that scale off of the UES. Because I've looked through them and that's never demonstrated in any of the listed UESs. Ki, Haki, The Force, Chakra (though I thought that might be getting removed so it can be ignored), Reiastsu, etc. None of those demonstrate what you're talking about. And if they're all able to qualify without it, then I don't see why JJK would be an exception

And whatmore, since Ryu's output is always the same no matter what if Yuta is able to hurt Ryu with both his CT and raw CE then that should mean that Yuta is using similar amounts of energy between them. And Yuta demonstrates this as not only does he hurt Ryu with a use of Thin-Ice Breaker but he also manages to draw blood when swapping hands near the final end of their fight. We're also shown that both Rika and Yuta can deflect Ryu's granite blast with a single hand, Yuta and Rika are able to hurt Uro at the same time, and Rika is able to hurt Ryu with a punch as well.

 

[SheevShezarrine]

What about Hanami being notably more durable than Jogo despite Jogo being comparable, if not stronger?

Kinda seems like it comes down to either Hanami having a higher natural durability that's compounded upon with CE enhancement or having superior skill in reinforcing his durability. UES does permit for some users to not be able to scale their physical amps to their non-physical abilities wholly, or for the opposite to be true, so long as it's a disparity within those individuals as opposed to a fault of the energy system. Using Star Wars and the UES of The Force as an example, Jedi of the Halcyon bloodline have incredibly weak Telekinesis to the extent that it would have to be listed as "much/far lower" on their profiles (dunno why Corran doesn't have one but oh well), but excel at other things such increasing their speed and absorbing energy. Yet, this didn't disqualify The Force from being accepted as a UES