CRT for potentially upgrading Superhuman Physical Characteristics

[Therefir]

@M3X Hold up, that's not how it works, Peak Human are considered Street level.

 

[Therefir]

Should we discuss this here, or should I make a CRT about this? Hol, up, 9-C is considered superhuman to this wiki? If yes, then why?

9-C ranges from anything between 300 joules to 7650 joules, so of course at some point Street level is going to be considered Superhuman.

 

[M3X_2.0]

Huh, since when?

 

[H3110l12345I20]

Well that was instantanous in feed back time.

Well, if humans can exceed the energy output we have them at, then we should change it. There's no "Street level" durability or attack potency for a human, if a human can do that, then it's human level, not street level. That's how the Tier works.

I mean, they have attacks that technically fit into the joule requirements of street level.

 

[Therefir]

Huh, since when?

Since always? Peak Humans are stronger than even other highly athletic people, making them 9-C.

 

[M3X_2.0]

Contradictory with the Tiering System page, that has "Tier 9: Superhuman" and it's not mentioned anywhere in the Attack Potency page, the two most important pages for Tiering, since that's their purpose.

Tiering System

The following is a comprehensive overview of the hierarchical system the VS Battles Wiki utilizes to properly categorize and index fictional characters, entities, and objects based on the scale of their feats and the varying scopes that they can affect or create/destroy. Though Destructive...

vsbattles.fandom.com

 

[Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan]

Contradictory with the Tiering System page, that has "Tier 9: Superhuman" and it's not mentioned anywhere in the Attack Potency page, the two most important pages for Tiering, since that's their purpose.

Tiering System

The following is a comprehensive overview of the hierarchical system the VS Battles Wiki utilizes to properly categorize and index fictional characters, entities, and objects based on the scale of their feats and the varying scopes that they can affect or create/destroy. Though Destructive...

vsbattles.fandom.com

"Characters who stand at the threshold of human strength and capabilities, represented by Olympic level athletes or rigorously trained martial artists, as well as larger animals.

It is important to note that, despite being named "Street level", this tier has nothing to do with actually affecting an entire street, with the name being more of a reference to street fighters as portrayed in martial arts movies and the like."

From that page

10-A is supposed to be like normie athletes while 9-C represents the strongest humans, while the baseline of 9-B is based on a gun that can drill holes in walls.

 

[M3X_2.0]

Cool, but still doesn't explain why Tier 9 is Superhuman if one of the Tiers is literally something a human can reach with training. Though that's something minimal and should be quick to resolve.

 

[H3110l12345I20]

Contradictory with the Tiering System page, that has "Tier 9: Superhuman" and it's not mentioned anywhere in the Attack Potency page, the two most important pages for Tiering, since that's their purpose.

Tiering System

The following is a comprehensive overview of the hierarchical system the VS Battles Wiki utilizes to properly categorize and index fictional characters, entities, and objects based on the scale of their feats and the varying scopes that they can affect or create/destroy. Though Destructive...

vsbattles.fandom.com

So how do we handle stuff like body slams, kicks & stomps? They exceed 300 joules.

Though that's something minimal and should be quick to resolve.

Agreed, that's why I considered going for Street level/class+. I'll say this is still on topic since the lowers tiers are related to SPC.

 

[M3X_2.0]

I'd say that anything higher than what you're saying, like 300 Joules or even the 1000 Joules should be good at the Peak Human Tier. Though, what about the damage taken by the one who is attacking?

 

[Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan]

As I said, the issue is that our system is way too simplified for real life. A normal guy running at full speed is 9-C but if you take that attack concentrated to say the head you're going to be dead. Mike Tyson only punches at 1600 Joules but I can reach that energy by just running at a little bit over 6 m/s, and I certainly cannot take a punch from Mike Tyson without being knocked out.

Defining Tiers: Street, Athlete, and Wall levels

vsbattles.fandom.com

These are the justifications for the tier borders fyi.

 

[Therefir]

Cool, but still doesn't explain why Tier 9 is Superhuman if one of the Tiers is literally something a human can reach with training. Though that's something minimal and should be quick to resolve.

It won't, the reason why Street level was limited to 300 joules is because it made guns and bullets Athlete level, across many other reasons, I was there when it was decided.

And I recommend you stop suggesting changes to the entire wiki like this, unless you want to risk Antvasima's wrath.

But seriously, we are not in a position to change Street level, humans being able to reach that tier through training or tackles is no mystery, and has always been a thing.

The tier calling it "Superhuman" doesn't mean anything, the upper layers of Street level, Wall level, and Small Building level are superhuman.

 

[M3X_2.0]

Dude, calm down. I'm not suggesting anything, I don't even care about how we call a Tier or the Peak Human page.

 

[Therefir]

Don't worry, the suggesting part was a joke.

Either way I think we are derailing, the OP's intention was to change the Superhuman Physical Characteristics page

 

[H3110l12345I20]

As I said, the issue is that our system is way too simplified for real life.

Agreed.

Also, 1 minor detail: "The levels of strength, speed or stamina significantly exceed what is theoretically feasible for a regular person." How do you define, "theoretically feasible" if humans can train themselves to be peak human at a bare minimum?

And I recommend you stop suggesting changes to the entire wiki like this, unless you want to risk Antvasima's wrath.

I mean, Antvasima has viewed this page at least once, I'll ask about Ant's wrath in a questions & answers thread.

 

[M3X_2.0]

Ant even agreed with me, wdym?

 

[H3110l12345I20]

Don't worry, the suggesting part was a joke.

Either way I think we are derailing, the OP's intention was to change the Superhuman Physical Characteristics page.

So do we border superhuman with peak human stats, or having more than an average human's stats?

 

[H3110l12345I20]

It won't, the reason why Street level was limited to 300 joules is because it made guns and bullets Athlete level, across many other reasons, I was there when it was decided.

So, what's wrong with these calculations? Some of them reach athlete level or human level.

 

[H3110l12345I20]

Ant even agreed with me, wdym?

He commented on 2 of my "reliably" trashy blog posts, & suggested a discussion thread when I have this thread here. He decided to look at this thread after my response.

 

[Antvasima]

Therefir is correct. Tier 10-A is just supposed to be regular athlete level, whereas tier 9-C is supposed to include peak human feats and low level superhuman ones. It is unfortunately the system that we inherited when the modern administration took over the wiki.

That said, at some point we might have to change our system so 9-B starts at superhuman feats, but then the "Wall level" name wouldn't really work anymore, so it is doubtful if that is a good idea.

However, updating our peak human and possibly superhuman physical characteristics pages with more accurate definitions should be fine.

Also, I would appreciate if some of you would be willing to help Spino figure out how we should best separate (for example) punching energy from ramming energy in an appropriate manner for our real world pages.

 

[Antvasima]

Also, I seem to have misunderstood M3X earlier. It thought that he only wanted to update our standards for lifting strength, speed, and the peak human and superhuman physical characteristics pages.

 

[H3110l12345I20]

Therefir is correct. Tier 10-A is just supposed to be regular athlete level, whereas tier 9-C is supposed to include peak human feats and low level superhuman ones. It is unfortunately the system that we inherited when the modern administration took over the wiki.

That said, at some point we might have to change our system so 9-B starts at superhuman feats, but then the "Wall level" name wouldn't really work anymore, so it is doubtful if that is a good idea.

However, updating our peak human and possibly superhuman physical characteristics pages with more accurate definitions should be fine.

Also, I would appreciate if some of you would be willing to help Spino figure out how we should best separate (for example) punching energy from ramming energy in an appropriate manner for our real world pages.

Also, 1 minor detail: "The levels of strength, speed or stamina significantly exceed what is theoretically feasible for a regular person." How do you define, "theoretically feasible" if humans can train themselves to be peak human at a bare minimum?

Hmmm...acknowledging common sense & the definitions of SPC, & Peak human, the definitions themselves for the tiers won't change.

Spoiler: Read only for tiers 10-C to 9-C, it's likely unnecessary & not the best solution as of now.

Unless if you still want to exclude piercing damage to separate the tiers knives are street level despite their Joule values being within human level range; gunshots can cause minor fractures even with low caliber rounds; human bites can break bone; etc, street level's easy to rise up but human & athlete level's more tricky due to the nonlinear & overlapping nature of the lower tiers. Although you're going to need to deal with the "theoretically feasible" part in SPC's definition.

There's a way I can think of to deal with SPC's definition make peak humans not superhuman & merge it+turn it into althlete level+ (scrap that, I've read Ant's message clearly), keep peak humans as superhuman by changing SPC's definition to include being above ordinary humans while rising the joule value at or above a human's regular kick (simplest definition, some definitions of superhuman include what's above ordinary/normal human ability). Although we may or may not have to deal with how powerful a regular human can be with 100% instead of 65% of their strength.

 

[H3110l12345I20]

Unless if you still want to exclude piercing damage to separate the tiers

shoot, I meant include, not exclude

 

[H3110l12345I20]

However, updating our peak human and possibly superhuman physical characteristics pages with more accurate definitions should be fine.

Peak Human's definition is fine, although the thing I have beef with the "theoretically feasible" part in Superhuman Physical Characteristics' definition.

Even if we used common sense & dismissed the human's kicks, body slams & stomps, couldn't anyone "theoretically" train themselves to be street class?

It also says "feasible" so the thing that's stopping humans from being peak human now a days is due to the modern lifestyle & our decisions.

Potential requirements of Street level/class, street level/class+, & wall level are still potential candidates. If nothing changes with the Striking Strength & Durability, then I'll just link a couple of links/references to the SPC page & call it a day.

 

[KLOL506]

That said, at some point we might have to change our system so 9-B starts at superhuman feats, but then the "Wall level" name wouldn't really work anymore, so it is doubtful if that is a good idea.

Pretty sure we already reach Superhuman within the upper echelons of 9-C where normal humans can physically themselves no longer reach without weaponry. Even with tackles IIRC the max humans could reach is 8 kilojoules, which is a far, far cry from the 15 kilojoule baseline that we have for Wall level, which is basically achieved by high-caliber rounds.

 

[H3110l12345I20]

However, updating our peak human and possibly superhuman physical characteristics pages with more accurate definitions should be fine.

We could apply common sense & factor the real world's non-linearity in joule striking strength/durability.

Examples:
*Athletic humans are humans that are usually physically stronger than humans due to their training in their sports (by the definition of athlete).
*Kicks & Stomps (& maybe human bites?) are a factor in street fights, but humans usually use their upper body to attack.
- In the meantime, we could separate human level & athlete/peak human level based off of these facts (or as a requirement).

Peak human should apply to the strongest athletes. Superhuman should make the distinction that the character is stronger than a normal human, on par or maybe even being stronger than the strongest athletes, & humans.

 

[Antvasima]

Pretty sure we already reach Superhuman within the upper echelons of 9-C where normal humans can physically themselves no longer reach without weaponry. Even with tackles IIRC the max humans could reach is 8 kilojoules, which is a far, far cry from the 15 kilojoule baseline that we have for Wall level, which is basically achieved by high-caliber rounds.

Yes. That is what I said. Street level includes both peak human and low-level superhuman feats.

 

[Antvasima]

Anyway, do any staff members have suggestions regarding what we should do here?

 

[Therefir]

Anyway, do any staff members have suggestions regarding what we should do here?

OP wanted to apply this to the Superhuman Characteristics page:

ref everything to the potential changes.

vsbattles.fandom.com

 

[Antvasima]

Okay, and what are the exact changes compared to previously?

 

[Therefir]

Okay, and what are the exact changes compared to previously?

It now has a reference section with human feats listed on it, the tier requirements for Superhuman Characteristics stays the same.

Though OP seems to have a problem with this section "The levels of strength, speed or stamina significantly exceed what is theoretically feasible for a regular person".

OP argues that there are feats for peak humans that surpasses the 9-C tier, such as the bones having a durability of 9920 joules on a specific angle (9-C+).

But I think we can all agree even the strongest humans could die from much weaker blows, such as the fastest baseball bat swing being only 1400 joules.

Knives are technically lower than 9-C judging solely on the energy they carry through a stab, but due to this energy being concentrated, it can easily cause 9-C damage on even the most durable human being. This is something our tiers don't take into account but there's nothing we can do about it.

 

[H3110l12345I20]

Though OP seems to have a problem with this section "The levels of strength, speed or stamina significantly exceed what is theoretically feasible for a regular person".

Yep, I do have a problem with that.

OP argues that there are feats for peak humans that surpasses the 9-C tier, such as the bones having a durability of 9920 joules on a specific angle (9-C+).

But I think we can all agree even the strongest humans could die from much weaker blows, such as the fastest baseball bat swing being only 1400 joules.

Knives are technically lower than 9-C judging solely on the energy they carry through a stab, but due to this energy being concentrated, it can easily cause 9-C damage on even the most durable human being. This is something our tiers don't take into account but there's nothing we can do about it.

I mean, the average human's highest durability feats are street level/9-C, I'm not gonna deny that multiple stomps & kicks to the head are going to be fatal injuries as said in the description. We also have weak spots & vital organs. I was going to question about human durability being 9-C but you answered it for me.

For striking strength (maybe the tiers? (I don't know)), I guess we could add common sense into it. Just because your kicks are strong does not mean you're an extremely strong athlete.

For durability, being around 9-C (or maybe to 9-C+) seems feasible. We can only take so many knife attacks &/or low caliber bullets before dying from our injuries &/or blood loss. We can't really take 9-C attacks to the head too. Although no one has said something about the rest of the body.

Spoiler: Rest of the Body

Legs are 9-C in durability & striking strength but it's not to the point where it's stronger than a martial artist kick.

The arms & torso do vary from 10-B to 9-C in durability. We can take our own punches & some weak spots require a hard enough punch to cause significant effects. The arms & torso have bones & we know how durable bones are. A 9-C piercing attack to a vital organ/part of the spine will likely defeat the human, although people in the past have survived many stabbings & gunshots.

I'm leaning towards 9-C in SPC durability, athough 9-C+ is still open.

 

[H3110l12345I20]

I'm tempted to use my amateur calculation for human kicks since it's 3000+ Joules I mean there's a bunch of post calc amateur personal tiering system stuff in the document, you can use the links/sources I use for each of the calculations that are reliable since they're not mine & they're reliable. It would need evaluation anyways from the calc group. I'll do a blog post version of the calculation in 7 days or less.

 

[Therefir]

I can try to evaluate the calc if you upload it to the site, there are many factors you might not be taking into account (the specific parts of the legs that are actually traveling at that speed, the kinetic energy of a spinning object, the mass used, etc).

I made a calc a long time ago using the fastest kick and just got around 1000 joules, which seemed consistent with the fastest and strongest baseball strike.

 

[H3110l12345I20]

the specific parts of the legs that are actually traveling at that speed, the kinetic energy of a spinning object, the mass used

Noted, I'll reedit the calculation in accordance to these calculations in the future.

 

[Antvasima]

It now has a reference section with human feats listed on it, the tier requirements for Superhuman Characteristics stays the same.

Okay. That seems fine to me.

Though OP seems to have a problem with this section "The levels of strength, speed or stamina significantly exceed what is theoretically feasible for a regular person".

OP argues that there are feats for peak humans that surpasses the 9-C tier, such as the bones having a durability of 9920 joules on a specific angle (9-C+).

But I think we can all agree even the strongest humans could die from much weaker blows, such as the fastest baseball bat swing being only 1400 joules.

Knives are technically lower than 9-C judging solely on the energy they carry through a stab, but due to this energy being concentrated, it can easily cause 9-C damage on even the most durable human being. This is something our tiers don't take into account but there's nothing we can do about it.

Okay. I think that your evaluation makes sense.

 

[Antvasima]

I can try to evaluate the calc if you upload it to the site, there are many factors you might not be taking into account (the specific parts of the legs that are actually traveling at that speed, the kinetic energy of a spinning object, the mass used, etc).

I made a calc a long time ago using the fastest kick and just got around 1000 joules, which seemed consistent with the fastest and strongest baseball strike.

Thank you for helping out.

 

[H3110l12345I20]

I can try to evaluate the calc if you upload it to the site, there are many factors you might not be taking into account (the specific parts of the legs that are actually traveling at that speed, the kinetic energy of a spinning object, the mass used, etc).

I made a calc a long time ago using the fastest kick and just got around 1000 joules, which seemed consistent with the fastest and strongest baseball strike.

That's been done. Stomps are also notable due to their equal affects to that of a kick to the head (i.e. you're knocked unconscious). I also put the calculation in the Calculation Evalutions Thread. Now, I'll wait for 30 days or less for the evaluation.

 

[H3110l12345I20]

I made a calc a long time ago using the fastest kick and just got around 1000 joules, which seemed consistent with the fastest and strongest baseball strike.

Are there any attacks that the average human can do that would be stronger than 2000 joules (besides scratching & biting)?

 

[KLOL506]

Are there any attacks that the average human can do that would be stronger than 2000 joules (besides scratching & biting)?

Scratching and biting are a no-no, too vulgar apparently.