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Cross-Dimensional Vs Low Multiversal Range

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Wouldn't that be an issue of critical thinking instead? Things like "3-C Mindhax for Star Wars" are not uncommon because is understood that the galaxy is very much inhabited by life. But if you don't know enough, why wouldn't you ask?
 
So, Eficiente is saying we need to not apply AP terms (5-B) when discussing Range. Instead, Madara's range would be described as Planetary in that instance, using the terms described on the Range page. I agree with that. By saying 5-B when talking about the range of Madara's Infinite Tsukuyomi, it subtly implies his AP is 5-B, even though he's rated 5-C at best.

When talking about Lifting Strength, we have terms to apply like Class G, Pre-Stellar, etc. These are the terms we use when discussing Lifting Strength.

Since Range uses terms like Standard Melee Range, Planetary, etc. These are the terms we should use when discussing Range.
 
Range=/=AP or Tier

Yes.

The sheer meaning of the word makes that not being misleading. Calling range with AP/Tier terms is what's meaning.

It's misleading because it means that some characters with a higher range actually have a smaller range than characters with a smaller range.

A character who can do as I described as above would be Multiversal+ but may be outranged by planetary characters.

Was this nobody's fault? People very much have fault in this, using that AP/Tier term to measure the scale of a hax is a broken thing to do. Needless to say, mindhax was just an example, Rick Sanchez was said to have "2-A Resurrection" at the time even by good admins.

It's shorthand. It's slang. Who cares? Those terms aren't even used on the profiles for ****'s sake, it's just used by people to casually/easily described it to each other.
 
The Tier 2 ranges are super misleading for characters that should be interdimensional. You could jump a thousand universes away, but Scion could still snipe you, but if you jump off the planet he can't.
 
I still think that we should remove this text segment from the Low Multiversal section:

"It should be noted that the entirety of these continuums need to be affected simultaneously to qualify."

It would fit much better with our previously listed range statistics.

I also think that we should rewrite the description at the top of the Range page to this:

"Range is a measurement that refers to how far that the attacks or abilities of a certain character, weapon, or otherwise, can efficiently reach on their/its own."
 
Could we add an Interdimensional+ to deal with the ability to be able to affect more than 2 universes on a limited scale? That would cover things like being able to create portals to multiple universes but being unable to affect the entirety of those universes.
 
LSirLancelotDuLacl said:
Wouldn't that be an issue of critical thinking instead? Things like "3-C Mindhax for Star Wars" are not uncommon because is understood that the galaxy is very much inhabited by life. But if you don't know enough, why wouldn't you ask?
Click to expand...
No, 5-B for AP is destroy a planet, to call the same something that affects a planet is not wrong from a certain point of view as there are no rules on the matter. Speaking of SW, at the time afair people never talked about the exact scale of that "3-C Mindhax", I once made a vsthread with a SW character with that and someone with Multi-Galactic mindhax resistance; people briefly thought the mindhax to do nothing because of course, and they needed to be told that the galaxy in SW had the overabundant population nowadays is more common to hear it has.

Agnaa said:
The sheer meaning of the word makes that not being misleading. Calling range with AP/Tier terms is what's meaning.

It's misleading because it means that some characters with a higher range actually have a smaller range than characters with a smaller range.

A character who can do as I described as above would be Multiversal+ but may be outranged by planetary characters.
Click to expand...
Not if you're not lazy and specify the limitations of the range, but being responsable is apparently ask too much.

Lol, I am not going to use your "outranged" as in the meaning we are currently giving to the word, in the real meaning it getting outranged by smaller things makes perfect sense because Range are not limited to area of effect and ranges can have any shape and way to work. That on itself is not something that's wrong or needs to be fixed.

Agnaa said:
Was this nobody's fault? People very much have fault in this, using that AP/Tier term to measure the scale of a hax is a broken thing to do. Needless to say, mindhax was just an example, Rick Sanchez was said to have "2-A Resurrection" at the time even by good admins.

It's shorthand. It's slang. Who cares? Those terms aren't even used on the profiles for ****'s sake, it's just used by people to casually/easily described it to each other.
Click to expand...
I mean, yes, I can only disagree with it and it got further discussed because this stopped being a staff-only thread. When I started talking about it it was just to draw a comparison with how we now have range "in a AP way", to put it simply, and was I wrong? I don't think so, and think to be what matter of the slang thing.

Promestein said:
The Tier 2 ranges are super misleading for characters that should be interdimensional. You could jump a thousand universes away, but Scion could still snipe you, but if you jump off the planet he can't.
Click to expand...
I went over this fallacious reasoning over and over again. What can I say that it wouldn't just be a worst version of everything I said already? I don't think you read it, which is why you say that as if it were correct.

ChemistKyle89 said:
Could we add an Interdimensional+ to deal with the ability to be able to affect more than 2 universes on a limited scale? That would cover things like being able to create portals to multiple universes but being unable to affect the entirety of those universes.
Click to expand...
I could be subtle to express how much I disagree with this but then you could insist on it, so instead I'm gonna ask a rhetorical question; We made stuff up and this proposes a new made up thing to be added with a + in it, how does that sound?
 
@Ant Yes, the stuff here was prematurely added and is still being discussed with contrived arguments so it should be put how it was before:

  • Low Multiversal: Attacks and abilities that are able to reach two to one thousand 4-dimensional space-time continuums.
  • Multiversal: Attacks and abilities that are able to reach over one thousand 4-dimensional space-time continuums.
  • Multiversal+: Attacks and abilities that are able to reach an infinite amount of 4-dimensional space-time continuums.
 
I think that it would be better if we apply the changes that I just mentioned to the current version.
 
I edited the summary, and removed the extra sentence Antvasima requested. But as for Eficiente's description proposals, I think they're good.

And he's mentioning galactic range via mind hax. I agree that galactic range would be more like mind hacking someone on the edge of the galaxy from the other side of the galaxy as opposed to needing to mind hack the entire population all at once.
 
@Medeus

Thank you for the help, but what more do we need to change in summary?
 
Eficiente said:
@Ant Yes, the stuff here was prematurely added and is still being discussed with contrived arguments so it should be put how it was before:
  • Low Multiversal: Attacks and abilities that are able to reach two to one thousand 4-dimensional space-time continuums.
  • Multiversal: Attacks and abilities that are able to reach over one thousand 4-dimensional space-time continuums.
  • Multiversal+: Attacks and abilities that are able to reach an infinite amount of 4-dimensional space-time continuums.
Click to expand...
This. I agree with this. I only suggested Interdimensional+ as an alternate if their wording isn't changed.
 
From Below Standard Melee Range to Universal+ - Attacks/Abilities reach a certain distance.

For Interdimensional - Attacks/Abilities reach beyond conventional distances (most likely by ignoring the space between) but cannot AOE the entirety of the spaces involved and can't affect more than 2.

For Low Multiversal to Multiversal+ - Attacks/Abilites must be able to AOE 2-1000, 1001-Finite #, Infinite universes.

This is how it's currently stated...anyone else see anything wrong with this? I'm still voting for Eficient's wording for Low Multiversal to Multiversal+. I think DarkDragonMedeus liked them as well.
 
Not if you're not lazy and specify the limitations of the range, but being responsable is apparently ask too much.

I'm not talking about laziness, I'm talking about how, with your proposal, the range page won't have ranges always increasing, which seems weird to me.

I want range to be always increasing in a logical progression, with Interdimensional being a special modifier off to the side. Kind of like omnipresence with speed.

Lol, I am not going to use your "outranged" as in the meaning we are currently giving to the word, in the real meaning it getting outranged by smaller things makes perfect sense because Range are not limited to area of effect and ranges can have any shape and way to work. That on itself is not something that's wrong or needs to be fixed.

How does being outranged by a character with lower range make sense?
 
I also like Eficiente's descriptions for the multiversal ones. Now as for Interdimensional, I'd say this.

Interdimensional: Attacks and abilities that can reach beyond the conventional space-time of a single universe, such as into external pocket realities or parts of other universes, but may not be able to reach everywhere in those other universes. And in some cases, it may not be able to quite reach everywhere within their own universe.
 
@DDM Eficiente's descriptions for multiversal ones directly contradicts with that.

He wants any attack that can reach into other timelines, no matter how little of it it can effect, to be rated in multiversal.

Your two propositions go against each other...
 
Agnaa said:
I'm not talking about laziness, I'm talking about how, with your proposal, the range page won't have ranges always increasing, which seems weird to me.
Click to expand...
I agree with this.
 
Agnaa said:
Not if you're not lazy and specify the limitations of the range, but being responsable is apparently ask too much.I'm not talking about laziness, I'm talking about how, with your proposal, the range page won't have ranges always increasing, which seems weird to me.
I want range to be always increasing in a logical progression, with Interdimensional being a special modifier off to the side. Kind of like omnipresence with speed.

Lol, I am not going to use your "outranged" as in the meaning we are currently giving to the word, in the real meaning it getting outranged by smaller things makes perfect sense because Range are not limited to area of effect and ranges can have any shape and way to work. That on itself is not something that's wrong or needs to be fixed.

How does being outranged by a character with lower range make sense?
Click to expand...
It still has range always increasing, but like always, the range of something can be done in odd ways. Like the example DDM gave with the sniper rifle, that has a lot of meters in range and it just goes in a straight line, while some grenade has less range and covers all of its own range. Saying that the granade has more range that the sniper rifle and that the sniper rifle has more range than the granade both make perfect sense from the point of view in which that's said. The explosion of the granade covers more than the bullet itself of the rifle, and the rifle reaches more than the granade.
 
Interdimensional: Attacks and abilities that can reach beyond the conventional space-time of a single universe, such as into pocket realities where it is determined the space between universes doesn't exist (does not necessarily apply to all pocket universes) or parts of other universes by bypassing the space between universes.

May have to clean that up a bit. My understanding is that Interdimensional basically has conventional range applied to unconventional distances (traveling to another universe you technically only walk a few steps going through the portal but you're traversing universes at the same time).

Then use Eficiente's Low Multiversal - Multiversal+. May want to add "where the space between universes is present and traversed". (or something similar).
 
It still has range always increasing, but like always, the range of something can be done in odd ways. Like the example DDM gave with the sniper rifle, that has a lot of meters in range and it just goes in a straight line, while some grenade has less range and covers all of its own range. Saying that the granade has more range that the sniper rifle and that the sniper rifle has more range than the granade both make perfect sense from the point of view in which that's said. The explosion of the granade is covers more than the bullet itself of the rifle, and the rifle reaches more than the granade.

No. This is completely disanalagous. If there were two characters standing away at their farthest range between themselves, one with a sniper rifle and one with a grenade, the person with the sniper rifle would be able to hit the person with the grenade. If they got closer and were within each weapon's range, they'd both be able to hit each other.

If these two characters were instead an Interdimensional character restricted to Earth, and a character with Intergalactic range, this would play out very differently. Initially only the Interdimensional character would be able to hit the other one. But if we shrunk the distance down to a galactic one, now the Interdimensional character can't hit the Intergalactic one, but the Intergalactic one can.

This is what I mean by the range not always increasing, and a character being outranged by a character with lower range. Sniper rifles and grenades do not have this issue.
 
Agnaa said:
This is what I mean by the range not always increasing, and a character being outranged by a character with lower range. Sniper rifles and grenades do not have this issue.
Click to expand...
Emphasis in the "from the point of view in which that's said". In one way they are getting outranged, in other that's not the case. Sniper rifles and grenades don't have this issue, but what if they did, what if they were powers that can only be used in a specifically long range and not less than that?; They would still get measured with those specifically long ranges in profiles and they would get outranged by things can be used in shorter ranges.

The only thing to be done there is to specify the limitations of the range. That's the way things are because that's what range is, there is no fancy way to put it. Nor should things be different starting from certain measurements of range because that's just silly.
 
If they had those limitations, they'd be so rare that they'd be explicitly accounted for on the profiles themselves instead of their own pages.

However, interdimensional range is such a common limitation that it should have its own standard terminology and definition on the Range page.
 
@Agnaa & Eficiente

Can both of you summarise what, if anything, that you exactly wish to change about the current Range page definitions in an easy to understand manner?
 
I can't think of any proposed changes that I'm particularly attached to or want to spearhead. I'm against Eficiente's plan to largely revert the changes. Aside from that I don't think I have strong feelings on any other proposals here.
 
Okay. Thanks. So you think that the current version is mostly fine then?
 
This is the last thing I'm going to bother with. Here's an example: Character launches an attack from one universe that rips through space-time, travels the space between, rips through space-time in another universe, and explodes somewhere in that other universe.

According to the current definitions, because the attack didn't create/destroy/shake the entirety of the two universes involved, it's not Low Multiversal.

In fact, even if it traveled literally from one end of the first universe to the other before piercing space-time, traveled the space between, and traveled from one end of the other universe to the other end before exploding, it still wouldn't be Low Multiversal according to current definitions because it didn't affect the entirety of the two universes involved. It traveled the length of both, but it didn't also travel the width or height, which it would have to, otherwise the entirety of the two universes wasn't affected, just the straight line path through both of them and what exploded.
 
@Ant Mostly, yeah.

@ChemistKyle89 I'd be fine with rating cases like those in the Multiversal area. Maybe we should reword those ranges to:

Attacks are able to reach anywhere within two to one thousand 4-dimensional space-time continuums
Replacing "two to one thousand" with "over one thousand" and "an infinite amount" when necessary.

Would that address everyone's concerns? It'd make it no longer AoE while still rating small-scale actions with little reach as Interdimensional.
 
I think that would solve everything. I always thought of Interdimensional as conventional distances applied over unconventional distances (ex. Sniping another universe using a portal has the conventional distance of the rifle but unconventional distance of reaching into another universe).

I would like the wording of Interdimensional to remove "affect the entirety" and "several universes at the same time" though. If someone simply opens several portals from their universe, each leading to a different universe, this would be outside the definition of Interdimensional.

Interdimensional: Attacks and abilities that can reach beyond the conventional space-time of a single universe, such as into external pocket realities or parts of other universes, but that cannot necessarily travel a universal distance.
 
I also think that it should be enough to affect several universes at the same time to qualify for Low Multiversal range, and am fine with Kyle's suggested change to Interdimensional.
 
Can you also summarise what you want to do Eficiente?
 
Okay. Feel free to ask him via his message wall. You can tell him that I would also appreciate the help.
 
@Ant I just noticed that Agnaa agreed on what I said almost 2 days ago, his last comment and the one that follows that one cooncur with what I want.

I got disoriented by your comment after that one that agreed with stuff that was not what they were saying. Not to blame you or anything, I messed up pretty badly.
 
Woot. I think we're finally good to go. To summarize for Ant:

Interdimensional: Attacks and abilities that can reach beyond the conventional space-time of a single universe, such as into external pocket realities or parts of other universes, but that may not necessarily travel a universal distance.

Low Multiversal: Attacks are able to reach anywhere within two to one thousand 4-dimensional space-time continuums at the same time.

Multiversal: Attacks are able to reach anywhere within 1001 to any higher finite number of 4-dimensional space-time continuums at the same time.

Multiversal+: Attacks are able to reach anywhere within an infinite amount of 4-dimensional space-time continuums at the same time.

I think I got it all worded right. The original wording was over 1000 for Multiversal, so that would be fine also.
 
Those proposals look good, for for Interdimensional, I'd have it as but may not instead of cannot. Because some attacks can be above Universal while still Interdimensional, just not quite Low Multiversal.
 
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