Cosmology of fictional verses

[Hrdlifil]

Hello everybody,

i would like to ask you this question. Lets have 2 fictional verses Marvel and C´thulu Mythos. Now both those verses have their own local ultimate beeing that is for Marvel TOAA and for C´thulu Mythos Azathot. Now Both of those verses exist at the same time and no one is part of the other. Clearly TOAA didn´t create Azathot and TOAA isn´t part of Azathot dream. So how do we clasify those 2 existences/verses?

Is it right to think of them as diferent/separate multiverses which are located lets say in some Omniverse where fictional and real multiverses coexist, with beeings such as Azathot and TOAA having influence over "only" their verse?

Thank you

 

[Dvorak1902]

Tier 0's simply cannot be compared.

 

[Hrdlifil]

That is not what i am asking my man.

 

[Bobsican]

Reality - Fiction Interaction

 

[Eganergo]

Your second paragraph is correct, but we equalize verse here. Your question is hard to answer because you use tier 0 as example.

Trust me, you don't want to start with tier 1 or 0 for your understanding on this website.

Refer here: Standard Battle Assumptions.

 

[Bobsican]

Tiering System

 

[Hrdlifil]

Thank you for your answer,

The thing here is if we can more or less agree on this, which i found on the internet and I personaly agree with and just wanted to know your stance on this:

No god in fiction can be an omniversal omnipotent.

To organize things neatly, there are local gods, who control single worlds (or less) and go up in scope to anything short of being omnipotent within a single universe.

Above them are the single universe omnipotents. They have absolute power within their universe, but have never displayed any power beyond that level.

Above them are the multiversal omnipotents - the ones that exist in or have created many universes and are omnipotent in all of them.

An Omniversal omnipotent would literally be omnipotent even in our own universe, having all power in all universes combined, which is clearly contradicted in several pieces of fiction - ones that state their own gods as being omnipotent, for example.

Anyone stated as being omnipotent in "all universes" is actually omnipotent in all the universes that are a part of that fictional series multiverse.

Thus the highest rank anything can achieve is "multiversal omnipotent", barring a single, true (but totally unproven) true omnipotent of all realities everywhere that just isn't mentioned (Judeo-Christian arguments aside).

 

[Tony_di_bugalu]

Reality - Fiction Interaction

^

 

[Bobsican]

Omnipotence

Please watch the use of that word, it means far more than what you think

By the way, the tiering system for all tiers from High 3-A to 0 will be changed later on, so please take it with a grain of salt for now.

 

[Hrdlifil]

Let me correct that to nigh-omnipotent. But that is not the point of that, the point the main question is if it is basically right to think of those fictional multiverses like Marvel or C´thulu mythos as separate and therefore no beeing no matter how powerful from either of them can influence the other verse, so their power, which omnipotence is the limit stage, not actually achiavable, is only local to their verse.

Is this right?

 

[Eganergo]

We don't really use omnipotent because it's too complicated.

Tiering System

There are more than just multiversal characters aka Tier 1 and 0.

After multiversal level, we define power by their spatial dimensionality. Like 4D being is greater than 3D and so on.

Of course the god on their own verse is the strongest character. They don't have to be tier 1 to be 'omnipotent' on their own verse though.

Now let's take an example: Zen'ō. He is arguably the strongest person in DB. You could say he is 'omnipotent', but his greatest feats are creating and destroying several universes.

Compared to Kagutsuchi (Shin Megami Tensei) who is able to create and destroy countless universes across past, present, and future zeno would pale in comparison.

Basicaly it's depend on the verse itself and to remind you, we don't use 'omnipotent' here.

Hope that helps.

 

[Hrdlifil]

I am not using omnipotence as well, just saying that it is the limit if you will of the power hierarchy.

Ok lets use Zen´o and Azathoth. Both are supreme beeings of their own verses, with Azathoth beeing much more powerfull due to his greater feats in his verse.The main questin is if this my reasoning is corect: We can say that Azathot is more powerfull than Zeno, because we equalize verses and azathoth feats in his verse are vastly more powerful than zenos. Azathots and Zenos verses coexist and yes we can compare them as I have done, but Azathot even if much more powerful has no influence over Zeno´s verse and therefore those verses are separate and supreme beeings have power only over their local verse.

This is sort of a second order question so I get that on top of me not beeing native English speaker it might be hard for us to be on the same page.

 

[Eganergo]

In this case yes, Azathoth yeets zebo to oblivion due to being stronger. Verse Equalization means both people fight in a neutral place where they have to compete for supermacy.

With various proofs of Azzy being stronger, then yes he yeets Zeno. Futhermore being tier 0 means he is the de facto owner of the neutral universe.

At least for now because i heard tier 1 and 0 will be revised kek.

 

[Hrdlifil]

What do you mean by owner of neutral universe? Like he can not lose only possibly stalemate with outher tier 0?

 

[Hrdlifil]

Ok I am sorry I must be badly wording this. Lets have Azathoth who I think we all can agree with is one of the most powerfull beeing on this wiki. He created his verse (C´thulu Mythos verse) and isthe supreme beeing of that verse.

Now the questionn. Is it fair to say, that Marvel verse is located outside of C´thulu verse, therefore it is not part of Azathot creation and therefore Azathot has no power over Marvel verse?

 

[Eganergo]

Neutral universe means owned by no one or in other words, it doesn't belong to any of the verse.

Tbh this site description of tier 0 is kind of vague. From the way it is tho, yes tier 0 can only stalemate other tier 0 because they're described as the absolute god even to those who are tier 1A.

Even tier 1A fight is the same, but actually no.

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

Two tier 0s interacting is... eh. At that points, it's literally just "my infinity is greater" on a scale that is dumb to argue.

 

[Hrdlifil]

Now the questionn. Is it fair to say, that Marvel verse is located outside of C´thulu verse, therefore it is not part of Azathot creation and therefore Azathot has no power over Marvel verse?

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

Now the questionn. Is it fair to say, that Marvel verse is located outside of C´thulu verse, therefore it is not part of Azathot creation and therefore Azathot has no power over Marvel verse?

Not really. They may not be part of it's dream, but that doesn't mean it can't change it. It can't just stop dreaming them, but it still has reality warping like any other outer god.

Say, you put a random bloke from marvel next to azathoth, they will still be helpless against it.

 

[Hrdlifil]

Now the questionn. Is it fair to say, that Marvel verse is located outside of C´thulu verse, therefore it is not part of Azathot creation and therefore Azathot has no power over Marvel verse?

Not really. They may not be part of it's dream, but that doesn't mean it can't change it. It can't just stop dreaming them, but it still has reality warping like any other outer god.
Say, you put a random bloke from marvel next to azathoth, they will still be helpless against it.

What? Man I am not asking about outcome of bloke vs azathot in neutral universe. Of course Azathot would win. I mean I must be wording this super badly. I am just asking whether lets take for example Azathot as to not be too general, has his power only over his C´thulu mythos and not over other verses like Marvel or DC verses.

Or I can say it like this: Is it true to say that not all of fiction is part of Azathot dream, so it is not like Azathot is the supreme beeing of all fictional verses, right?

Now to generalize it, the same can be applied to all Tier 0 beeings. So even if they are the strongest beeing of their verse, there is no one verse which contains all of fiction, Marvel verse, DC verse, C´thulu mythos verse are all disjoint.

 

[Eganergo]

It all depend on how people view the two verse itself.

If people think Azzy is stronger then yes TOAA is part of its dreams, but if people agree that TOAA is stronger then Azzy is part of his creation. It is as simple as that.

Reality - Fiction Interaction

As i said before though, by this site definition tier 0 can only end in a draw. Basicaly both of them are equal. TOAA has his creation and Azzy has its dream, but none of them is superior than the other. Yeah no one own the other verse vice versa.

But this only appllies to tier 0. If you put Beyonder (Pre-Retcon) (1A) vs Azzy, then beyonder become part of his dreams.

The true owner of all fictional verse is The Law of Identity. OwO

 

[Hrdlifil]

My man I am sorry but this is not consistent. If we say that C´thulu Mythos and Marvel verse are disjoint, then no matter who from Marvel verse is not part of C´thulu Mythos. For Example Azzy is much stronger than Iron man. In neutral universe Azzy would wipe the floor with Iron man. But since Mervel verse is not part of C´thulu mythos, therefore Azathot has no influence over Marvel verse, therefore he can do nothing to Iron man. Now that applies to everybody(ofcourse) from Marvel verse given they are disjoint.

So it all boils down to this question. And don´t be general but specific. Are C´thulu mythos and Marvel verse dosjoint? That is two separete verses both coexisting somewhere in some collection of verses?

 

[Deleted member 2530]

About the last question we can assume that beings like ToAA and Azatoth are different fragmemts of a single entity. And they are omnipotent in their own part of the multiverse

 

[Hrdlifil]

About the last question we can assume that beings like ToAA and Azatoth are different fragmemts of a single entity. And they are omnipotent in their own part of the multiverse

Thank you, that is the kind of answer I was looking for. For those who I fear will write like we can´t use omnipotence and their verse is above multiverse lets just define multiverse as arbitrary large collection of universes and omnipotence as supreme power over arbitrary large subset of multiverse of which they are supreme beeings.

 

[Deleted member 2530]

@Hrdlifil in Hindu Myth Brahma creates and watches over infinite universes and there are more higher dimensions of existence above Brahma and finally SatyaVishnu exists beyond all these concepts and realities sleeping. He creates and destroys infinite multiverses containing those multiverses created by Brahma in his multiverse with every breathe.