Cosmic Cubes and Phoenix Force revisions

[Izreldan]

I am also fine with it, but we shouldn't scale other 4-B superheroes from the feat. Only the Phoenix Force hosts.

Well, what about heroes who directly scale to Phoenix Force Hosts, like Quasar (and by extension Captain Universe Spider-Man, who matched Quasar)?

Edit: And Binary Captain Marvel is superior to Quasar.

 

[Antvasima]

We probably have to consider them as typical Marvel outliers. They are not supposed to be far above Thor, Sentry, and similar characters.

 

[Izreldan]

@Antvasima True, but Base Thor has consistently been depicted as superior to Silver Surfer (with this even being confirmed by Loki) and able to hurt Starving Galactus onumerous occasions

Without use of the God Blast, mind you.

Sentry has a famous feat of fighting a (most likely) Starving Galactus (which has been confimed by Nate Grey, Spider-Ma, and even his Bio in the Marvel Handbook) and he has has been depicted as somewhat above Thor and Savage Hulk (but not World War Hulk) in sheer power. Sentry also defeated The Collective by himself, when just before, The Collective defeated Binary Captain Marvel

So Robert's Tier could be something like 4-A (Clashed with Starving Galactus and "fought him to a standstill" according to Spider-Man. Defeated The Collective, who was superior to Binary Captain Marvel. Slightly superior to Thor, who has clashed with Starving Galactus on numerous occasions)

I understand this affect a lot of scaling, but I would be willing to summerize revised justifications for many of the pages.

 

[ΚΟΜΙΞ]

Jean Grey is a very special occasion when it comes to the Phoenix Force. 4A seems too weak for all the avatars.

Other feats from another thread:

Okay

1. It is stated Dark Phoenix would destroy the Universe (possibly 3-A statement)

2. The Shi'ar consider Phoenix Force as the end of all existence (possibly 3-A statement)

3. Stated to possess infinite energy and overloads Necrom. Keep in mind Necrom was going to absorb the power of energy matrix for himself and crunch the Multiverse

4. Poses a threat to creation as great as M'Kraan Crystal (at least Low 2-C)

5. Superior to Death Seed, who were going to consume the Multiverse (possibly 2-A)

6. Without Phoenix Force, stars and life would cease to exist, and Galactus says Rachel can destroy a Universe (possibly Low 2-C)

7. In an alternate reality, Gabriel inherits the Force and Watchers state he will destroy them (also destroys galaxies on panel; at least 3-C)

8. Gabriel was going to consume all reality (Low 2-C)

9. Phoenix Force is the Big Bang. Now this is important because Big Bang is supposed to be the origin of all creation, all that was or will be (possibly High 1-B)

10. Equal to House of M Scarlet Witch, whom I can argue is 2-A (so can Seed)

11. Galactus says Rachel is a threat on par with an alternate version of Impossible Ma, who threatened the Omniverse

Now you people are free to interpret it the way you want, and majority of the scans I have posted are in regards of consistency.

• The Phoenix Raptor stretches for light years. A firebird the size of Galaxy. His claws burn hot enough to melt stars (which means at least 3C for Phoenix Wolvie)
• Phoenix Five Magik was feared by Dormammu.
• Jean's power as Phoenix is unmatched.

 

[Antvasima]

I think that any regular superheroes standing up to a weakened Galactus (which is what we should rename his statistics key to, as even the Thing has defeated a truly starving Galactus) without extraordinary means, should be considered as plot convenience outliers.

Similarly, Dormammu has effortlessly defeated a Phoenix Force avatar in a previous story. Marvel writers and editors are just being arrogant, lazy, incoherent, and irrational as usual, while blaming their poor plotting and logic on "pure imagination" or "modern myths". We need explicit feats for anything higher.

In any case, I will not allow any widespread upgrades to 4-A for Marvel characters, especially not without input from Matthew. Period. My apologies.

 

[Peter_"Quicksilver"_Maximoff]

Which is why i suggest let's run with what we've agreed upon now and take care the rest later or until further assistance as came.

 

[Antvasima]

I suppose, although it should be noted that the consciousness of the Phoenix Force itself controlled Rachel during the fight and made her far more powerful than her usual level, so it may not be reliable to scale all hosts from this.

 

[Peter_"Quicksilver"_Maximoff]

What do you suggest?

 

[Antvasima]

Maybe we should keep regular Phoenix hosts at 4-B after all, unless they have demonstrated higher feats, and change the "Starving Galactus" key to "Hungry Galactus" or "Weakened Galactus" to avoid misunderstandings?

 

[Shivansh_Garg]

Thing never defeated Galactus, it was Doctor Strange's spell that did. It's honestly hilarious if someone isn't aware of the context behind that incidence though

 

[Antvasima]

The Thing gave him the knockout blow. It doesn't matter that Doctor Strange severely distracted Galactus first.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Regular Hosts shouldn't be randomly upgraded to 4-A or 3-A or Low 2-C or whatever.

Dark Phoenix and other forms of Jean Grey Phoenix admittedly do have Universal feats and statements or even higher.

Scaling every Phoenix Avatar ever to Jean Grey is silly.

 

[Shivansh_Garg]

Thing knocked down Galactus whose mind was already shut down by Doctor Strange's spell as explicitly stated on panel. Ignoring what's blatantly stated wouldn't amount to anything

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Never mind about that then, but is it fine if we upgrade the multiversal Phoenix Force to High 1-B by scaling from the other abstract entities.

Also, is it fine if we upgrade the Cosmic Cubes to "At least 2-C" based on overpowering Doctor Doom with Galactus' power and rendering universal Eternity catatonic?

 

[Antvasima]

@Shivansh

From what I remember, Doctor Strange simply turned Galactus extremely frightened, which the Thing and Mister Fantastic used to physically knock him out. This was very explicit.

 

[Antvasima]

@Matthew

Are you fine with if we change the "Starving Galactus" description to "Hungry Galactus" instead? Starving seems like an exaggeration, unless he is nearly dying from hunger.

 

[Shivansh_Garg]

@Antvasima Reed did said Galactus' mind shut down itself to escape the horror inflicted by Strange's spell

That is what was stated on panel and that is what matters

 

[Antvasima]

I have checked, and you may be correct. On the one hand The Thing gave the strike that seemed to knock Galactus unconscious, and on the other, Reed said afterwards that Galactus' mind likely shut down to protect itself:

https://***************.to/Comic/Fantastic-Four-1961/Issue-243?id=26942

 

[Kappatalism]

I have checked, and you may be correct. On the one hand The Thing gave the strike that seemed to knock Galactus unconscious, and on the other, Reed said afterwards that Galactus' mind likely shut down to protect itself:

https://***************.to/Comic/Fantastic-Four-1961/Issue-243?id=26942

The Phoenix force is as strong as multi eternity, as it helped protect mutli eternity while it fused with galactus. Read Ultimates and Galactus' orgin story.

 

[Hykuu]

The Phoenix in Excalibur (which was generally where classic phoenix is portrayed) is WAY above omniversal threats

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Never mind about that then, but is it fine if we upgrade the multiversal Phoenix Force to High 1-B by scaling from the other abstract entities.

Also, is it fine if we upgrade the Cosmic Cubes to "At least 2-C" based on overpowering Doctor Doom with Galactus' power and rendering universal Eternity catatonic?

I would appreciate if somebody could remind Matthew to comment here again. We need to solve this in order to proceed.