Construction - The Final Thread

[KieranH10]

Yeah I know that the last threads I made on this subject didn't go so well...

See This Thread, This Thread, and This Thread for previous points I may miss (I believe I have mentioned all points for and against this power though). All of which threads did not fully conclude, I plan to conclude this subject in this thread once and for all, I refuse to let another thread on this subject die without a definitive conclusion.
See This Blog for what the ability will be.
Let's get back into this.

For the record, I was going to drop this subject completely, and I actually did give up with trying get this thing on the Wiki. But in the time between now and the last thread, i've had it reassured to me that this should be a power on the wiki, not only this, but it's for very similar reasons to my original arguments, and pretty much everyone i've asked seems to agree with this.

Firstly, I feel I should explain my original reasoning for why I believe this should be a power:
Construction as it would be on the Wiki is an incredibly common ability in fiction. With characters such as Steve, The Player, LEGO Characters, The Survivor, and many, many more having the ability to construct large buildings or objects in seconds, but not at all having this ability reflected in their profiles, this causes information to be missing on said profiles, and the profiles to therefor be inaccurate, which is especially concerning when the likes of Construction is their main power, and everyone I have asked about the subject has mentioned that Construction and Preparation being covered in the same power is stupid and confusing.
Once again, Construction would only apply to characters who can build during the heat of battle. Such as Emmet building during the final fight, Wildstyle building an aircraft mid-chase, The Player from Fortnite building during fights, Steve building to negate a fall, and more, please tell me how any of these would be covered under Preparation.

"Construction just sounds like Preparation?"
We have an abundance of similar powers on the wiki which could probably be merged into other abilities, but we choose not to because they often have different applications. Abilities that fall into this category include:

• Energy Projection & Energy Manipulation: Perhaps the most relevant example, these two abilities could very easily be merged into one singular ability. Both would be covered under Energy Manipulation alone, but Energy Projection is such a common ability in fiction on its own that they have been separated. Basically, someone with Energy Manipulation would also be capable of Energy Projection, but someone with Energy Projection would not be capable of fully manipulating said energy to their will.
• Pertrification & Transmutation: Another good example, once again Petrification and Transmutation could very easily be merged into just Transmutation, but since Petrification is a popular ability in fiction, they were separated. But they're essentially the exact same power, Petrification is just less diverse, only turning opponents into Stone.

These applications only go one way so have been deemed valid for their own separated abilities, Construction would be no different, and would be a similar example to these, this is literally the definition of the word "Subset", all of these powers are Subsets of each other, Energy Projection is a subset of Manipulation, Petrification is a subset of Transmutation, Construction is a subset of Preparation, but honestly less so of a subset, as it has its own application.

Many people mention that Construction can be boiled down to other powers, I feel it necessary to disprove this.

• Matter Manipulation: Matter Manipulation is a very strange case, as some characters who should have Construction, have Matter Manipulation instead, but this does not mean they should have Matter Manipulation. Matter Manipulation would fall under the one-way application argument I've mentioned, as someone with Matter Manipulation could use their control over Matter to theoretically build structures like this, an example of this would be Doctor Manhattan from the Watchmen Movie during the Mars scene, who clearly has Matter Manipulation, and is achieving this feat through such. But someone with Construction would not be able to manipulate the matter in their structures any further.
• Creation: Creation is similar to Matter Manipulation, but less so of a case, as Construction would not be creating anything, it would be using resources the user has or those around them to build structures.
• Preparation: Preparation will be the most brought up case. But I still strongly believe that Preparation should only cover a characters ability to Prepare before a battle. As this is the only application users are familiar with, and those who see Preparation on a profile are only going to think that their characters can prepare before a battle. Our users seemingly believe that Preparation should not encompass building in the heat of battle.

"Construction doesn't sound like a Supernatural Ability!"
Once again, this is no reason to decline it's validity. We have multiple powers on the Wiki already that are simply real life abilities that are exaggerated in fiction. Take Flight, the recently accepted Burrowing, Underwater Breathing, Acrobatics, or more. Construction would be just like these, an accelerated, exaggerated real world ability that would not be given to those who perform regular human feats of such (So building a house in 3 years would not warrant Construction, much like Digging a hole would not warrant any supernatural Burrowing ability). This shouldn't even be an argument anyway, since the likes of Acrobatics is given to regular acrobats, so a case of supernatural ability would not be up for question when considering an ability. The argument "Acrobatics is useful in a fight" does not make a case against Construction either, since I've already given examples of the ability being useful in a fight.

There's also the case that since the previous thread, it was agreed that Preparation may need to be changed to reflect its wide amount of applications, which to my knowledge, hasn't happened at all. Preparation still stands as a power utilized before a battle, and nothing major has been expanded on the power since the thread.
So the case still stands that Preparation simply does not, and should not represent this power at all.

"Every Construction user would have Preparation?"
Yes, it is true that a large majority of characters who get Construction will also likely get some kind of Preparation, just because of the nature of the power, I do not see how this is an issue or counter though. As once again, we have abilities that already follow this trend, Characters with Energy Manipulation get Energy Projection, characters with Transmutation would be capable of Petrification. Yet we keep these separate. More examples would be along the lines of anyone with Mind Manipulation would also get Morality Manip, Madness Manip, Empathic Manip, or Matter Manipulation would come with Quantum Manip, etcetera.

"Sounds like a skill/speed feat instead of a power!"
This argument makes little sense, firstly, if skill cannot be used for powers, then the likes of Acrobatics, and Martial Arts should be removed as powers. Secondly, if speed is a variable in deciding whether a power should be made, then the likes of Burrowing, Afterimage Creation, Danmaku, and more would not be needed as Powers and abilities, Burrowing is fast digging, but got accepted, Afterimage Creation is literally just speed, Danmaku is a large amount of attacks in a short time.

"Just write it as an attack on a characters page"
We could do this with so many powers, including the likes of Preparation, but we don't because that would remove a huge number of powers we have. We have so many powers based on intelligence/skill/technique that this really isn't an argument in the first place. If you're gonna argue that it's a skill or technique feat, then remove Martial Arts and Acrobatics, if you're arguing it as an intelligence feat, remove Preparation entirely. If not, Construction has a place here.

Let's see how this goes, one last time...

The Results:
Those who Agree: (9) XSOULOFCINDERX, Gewsbumpz_dude, DarkDragonMedeus, InfiniteDay, UchihaSlayer96, DaReaperMan, DeathNoodles, Bobsican, Antvasima

Those who Disagree: (1) Efficiente,

For the record, from the last threads alone the current tally is:

• 10 Agree, 3 are Staff
• 2 are Neutral, both are staff
• 5 Disagree, 4 are Staff

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

I agree with the OP 100%.

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

I’ll read this later

 

[Gewsbumpz_dude]

Already talked about this in DMs. I agree to this becoming a real ability, I can see it having use for numerous characters.

 

[Eficiente]

This is still wrong.

Pertrification should link into Transmutation or not exist, 2 wrongs don't make a right in this and any other example like it.

Preparation is just a word, you strongly believing that it should only cover a characters ability to "Prepare before a battle" is you strongly believing that part of the meaning of a simple word should be removed, all while we warp the meaning of the word "Construction" to not be "that thing everyone can do" into what certain characters have made a certain better use of. Explaining well how some characters use this made-up unique power isn't as productive as you think as it is, more is not better when most users already confuse powers and forget some exist when dealing with profiles.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I personally think construction sounds like an ability separate from creation similar to how deconstruction is separate from Existence Erasure; and in some cases, it can be seen as a weaker version of Creation. But building stuff from scratch is impressive none of the less. So I think the OP's proposal is fine.

Though, I should also note there are different levels of Construction; some can only building normal every day objects while some can basically craft magical super weapons despite lacking proper materials.

 

[KieranH10]

Pertrification should link into Transmutation or not exist, 2 wrongs don't make a right in this and any other example like it.

Many, many people would disagree with this being a "wrong", there's very good reason to separate powers like this. Application of power is something that can definitely warrant separating powers like this. Unless you wish to get rid of Energy Projection, Morality Manipulation, Madness Manipulation, Empathic Manipulation, and so many more powers too.

Preparation is just a word, you strongly believing that it should only cover a characters ability to "Prepare before a battle" is you strongly believing that part of the meaning of a simple word should be removed, all while we warp the meaning of the word "Construction" to not be "that thing everyone can do" into what certain characters have made a certain better use of.

I'm not arguing the definition of Preparation in general, we've been through that in a previous thread and it went nowhere. I'm arguing what Preparation means on the Wiki, and right now it is without question limited to being used before a battle, and every user that's spoken on the subject has agreed that this is the only application that would make sense.

As for Construction being a warped definition, read the OP regarding Acrobatics, Martial Arts, and more. These would be so much worse of a case for this than Construction would be since Construction would actually be building at supernatural speeds. But we allow both Martial Arts and Acrobatics since they're valid skillsets to index.

Explaining well how some characters use this made-up unique power isn't as productive as you think as it is, more is not better when most users already confuse powers and forget some exist when dealing with profiles.

Most users are fine with powers as long as they make sense in-context. It's when we have no other alternatives to give to a character that users begin making assumptions to powers which confuse others. Such as giving a character control over Matter when they build a wall. Construction would help solve this problem, not contribute to it.

 

[InfiniteDay]

Agree with this completely. Preparation literally has the stem of pre, meaning before in latin. Preparation is a stage of planning and making this available for further use. It should not cover what happens in a fight, but rather the planning and enacting of more complex research and planning before a fight begins. You can't prepare during a battle, unless it is a study of a opponents movesets, as this is the only applicable use of preparation we have on our site that expands mid-combat. Everything else requires pre-battle planning and study.

Constructing an object or machine during combat isn't preparation as it is listed in our own preparation page. Technological preparation specifically needs "...time and materials", where in things such as the lego batman movie and lego movie, they do not have that first part. And yes, technological preparation is not usually given to characters who can create objects in a short period of time. Construction is more of using your surroundings to your advantage during any situation, without just applying to something before or during a battle, but during any point, and not just offensively either.

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

I fully agree with the OP personally.

 

[Eficiente]

Many, many people would disagree with this being a "wrong", there's very good reason to separate powers like this. Application of power is something that can definitely warrant separating powers like this. Unless you wish to get rid of Energy Projection, Morality Manipulation, Madness Manipulation, Empathic Manipulation, and so many more powers too.

I might have said it bad with "2 wrongs don't make a right", things like the many forms of Mind Manip we have as powers aren't necessarily bad, but they're not something to be encouraged to have and the more of them we have the less we should have. They're redundant. They're unnecessary not in the sense that they should be removed, as they can't be and some do 100% help out, but that all their utility doesn't remove the fact that we already cover those powers in other power, thereby making us look bad for having them. And I'm not talking aesthetically. It's not a good argument that other powers can get away with this because those are exceptions that need to be avoided.

I'm not arguing the definition of Preparation in general, we've been through that in a previous thread and it went nowhere. I'm arguing what Preparation means on the Wiki, and right now it is without question limited to being used before a battle, and every user that's spoken on the subject has agreed that this is the only application that would make sense.

Similar case for things having some meaning in the wiki they don't have for any other normal person; Yes terms and such for Vs debates come in handly, but the more of that we have the less we should have, new ones being proposed to be added like this one with a clear reason to be unnecessary should logically be denied.

I remember when the Stabilization Feats page was about to be made, it was just called "Stabilization" and the summary went over what pretty much that word meant for us. I get behind why people would roll along with that and agree with things like it, but applying it would make the issues it has remain permanent and unfixable. The less we abuse our use of language by creating new meanings and removing it from words the better, it turns into a parody as this is not what Construction means to any random person, in the sense of the reaction they would have at it and how they wouldn't be wrong for it.

As for Construction being a warped definition, read the OP regarding Acrobatics, Martial Arts, and more. These would be so much worse of a case for this than Construction would be since Construction would actually be building at supernatural speeds. But we allow both Martial Arts and Acrobatics since they're valid skillsets to index.

Characters using real acrobatics and Martial Arts can have those powers in a profile, anyone that can built something doesn't really get to have Construction and some should in some corner if they should have the power but would never use it in combat or anything meaningful. They're a bunch of sets of skills out there we could make characters have if we wanted to, doesn't mean we should.

Most users are fine with powers as long as they make sense in-context. It's when we have no other alternatives to give to a character that users begin making assumptions to powers which confuse others. Such as giving a character control over Matter when they build a wall. Construction would help solve this problem, not contribute to it.

Well, no, that's not most optimum, users being confuse can be simply fixed by writting in the Prep page how it can be used to built things, meanwhile limiting what Prep can be used for, creating a new power that's just a word and giving a limited meaning to it only we use is just going to make things more confusing, as the wiki would then have more things to work around with and the Preparation and Construction powers it has aren't as simple as they seem. If anything one should just see the names and get the idea.

Users already add Reactive Power Level when it's Accelerated Deloment, Clairvoyance when it's Extracencioral Perc., etc., more is not better or a help when it's already covered by a power.

 

[KieranH10]

I might have said it bad with "2 wrongs don't make a right", things like the many forms of Mind Manip we have as powers aren't necessarily bad, but they're not something to be encouraged to have and the more of them we have the less we should have. They're redundant. They're unnecessary not in the sense that they should be removed, as they can't be and some do 100% help out, but that all their utility doesn't remove the fact that we already cover those powers in other power, thereby making us look bad for having them. And I'm not talking aesthetically. It's not a good argument that other powers can get away with this because those are exceptions that need to be avoided.

Construction would fall under this too, Preparation should not cover building during a battle because it doesn't make sense to most users.

Similar case for things having some meaning in the wiki they don't have for any other normal person; Yes terms and such for Vs debates come in handly, but the more of that we have the less we should have, new ones being proposed to be added like this one with a clear reason to be unnecessary should logically be denied.

I remember when the Stabilization Feats page was about to be made, it was just called "Stabilization" and the summary went over what pretty much that word meant for us. I get behind why people would roll along with that and agree with things like it, but applying it would make the issues it has remain permanent and unfixable. The less we abuse our use of language by creating new meanings and removing it from words the better, it turns into a parody as this is not what Construction means to any random person, in the sense of the reaction they would have at it and how they wouldn't be wrong for it.

So many of our powers have this already and it isn't an issue. We can have powers or terminology that means a certain thing here, that's why we make the pages, to explain how we treat such things here. Preparation would also fall under your category and the argument is kinda hypocritical, since you're arguing that Preparation does not mean to Prepare something, but can also mean to make something on the fly during the situation.

Also you're acting like the power has to be named Construction. That was simply the most fitting name at the time. So the terminology supposedly "not meaning what the word means" (Which doesn't make a huge amount of sense, as Construction does mean to build something), doesn't apply here, as we can just change the name of the power if that's an issue.

Characters using real acrobatics and Martial Arts can have those powers in a profile, anyone that can built something doesn't really get to have Construction and some should in some corner if they should have the power but would never use it in combat or anything meaningful. They're a bunch of sets of skills out there we could make characters have if we wanted to, doesn't mean we should.

But someone who can build something would have Construction if it were out of the ordinary, and if use in a battle is necessary for a power then why do we have Automatic Translation, Power Bestowal, Photographic Memory, and more? Construction also wouldn't be just skill, as it would not be given to someone who can build at regular speeds, building buildings in a year or so obviously wouldn't be anything notable enough to consider an ability.

Well, no, that's not most optimum, users being confuse can be simply fixed by writting in the Prep page how it can be used to built things, meanwhile limiting what Prep can be used for, creating a new power that's just a word and giving a limited meaning to it only we use is just going to make things more confusing, as the wiki would then have more things to work around with and the Preparation and Construction powers it has aren't as simple as they seem. If anything one should just see the names and get the idea.

And yet, while it was never applied or thought of again after the last thread, I've directed users to the Preparation page for stuff like this, but once again, they've considered it weird and a really strange way to treat such a feat. Construction would help with this problem, as users would immediately know what qualifies for Construction and what qualifies for Preparation, because the pages would note the distinction between both.

Users already add Reactive Power Level when it's Accelerated Deloment, Clairvoyance when it's Extracencioral Perc., etc., more is not better or a help when it's already covered by a power.

That's as simple as adding a note on each of those pages if it's a problem. We wouldn't merge Reactive Power level and Accelerated Development, and we wouldn't merge Clairvoyance with Extrasensory Perception because they're separate powers, so we shouldn't make Preparation even more broad of a term when people already disagree on some feats being classed under it. We should split the application that users think is wrong, and make it abundantly clear that it's a separate power.

 

[DaReaperMan]

I 100% agree with this, a few of my OCs and FCs would have this ability

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

I agree with KieranH10.

 

[DeathNoodles]

I completely agree with the OP.

 

[KieranH10]

Bump

 

[DaReaperMan]

Bump

 

[Bobsican]

I also agree on this being a power page in the site.

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

Bump.

 

[KieranH10]

The opposition has had 3 days to respond, i'm willing to give more time if needs be, but they don't seem to have mentioned any intent to respond since then.

@Antvasima How do you feel about this? The large majority both now and in the past agree with this becoming a power, including some staff members.
I do not want this to end up inconclusive like the last 3 threads.

 

[Antvasima]

I personally do not mind if we add this ability page. It seems harmless and somewhat useful. If we can add Burrowing, this should qualify as well.

 

[KieranH10]

Ok, thank you.

I will give another day or so for Efficiente to respond, if there is no response in this time am I ok to upload this power?

 

[Antvasima]

I do not know.

@AKM sama @Promestein @DontTalkDT

What do you think?

 

[DontTalkDT]

@KieranH10 You mentioned that this power is only supposed to be for characters who are able to construct things superhumanly fast. The proposed page doesn't actually explicitly spell this out as a requirement, though. That, at least, would need to be changed for the obvious reason that otherwise every human in existence would have the power.
On that note, if we are talking superhumans, wouldn't it need to be restricted to constructing faster than their speed tier suggests? Otherwise, every humanoid with super speed (i.e. 95% of all characters on this wiki) would have this power.

Lastly, I'm generally a bit on edge regarding the fact that every character able to manipulate some form of solid matter with a supernatural ability would get this. Every earth manipulator can quickly create earth pillars or something. Ice users can do it with ice. Telekinesis users with whatever is lying around.
If we allow all those to have it, it would once again be way too general, as it would be a subset of not just one, but most abilities.
To avoid this it should be restricted to feats where multiple separate objects are combined into a complex construct, as opposed to just putting them into simple shapes like pillars, piles, cubes, balls, discs, spikes etc.

Edit: Also minor nitpick: "Characters with this ability are capable of building entire fortresses in short amounts of time" <--- that should be "may be capable" or something instead, unless only fortress builders apply for this.

 

[KieranH10]

@KieranH10 You mentioned that this power is only supposed to be for characters who are able to construct things superhumanly fast. The proposed page doesn't actually explicitly spell this out as a requirement, though. That, at least, would need to be changed for the obvious reason that otherwise every human in existence would have the power.

I was under the impression that it was clear on the page. I will work on making it very clear that only those who can build at unnatural speeds will qualify for this power.

On that note, if we are talking superhumans, wouldn't it need to be restricted to constructing faster than their speed tier suggests? Otherwise, every humanoid with super speed (i.e. 95% of all characters on this wiki) would have this power.

There is also the point that before we can assume construction as an ability in the first place, we would have to have a feat of such. We obviously wouldn't just assume "Character A can build really fast because he can move really fast" without any evidence of such a thing.

But I suppose that also makes sense. I'm unsure how to word such a note/reword for the ability profile. Perhaps:
"Construction is generally reserved for characters who are capable of building objects quicker than their overall speed would suggest. Characters who can apply this ability quickly (relative to their own reactions), would qualify for this ability. Simply having high speed alone is not enough to qualify for Construction."

Lastly, I'm generally a bit on edge regarding the fact that every character able to manipulate some form of solid matter with a supernatural ability would get this. Every earth manipulator can quickly create earth pillars or something. Ice users can do it with ice. Telekinesis users with whatever is lying around.
If we allow all those to have it, it would once again be way too general, as it would be a subset of not just one, but most abilities.
To avoid this it should be restricted to feats where multiple separate objects are combined into a complex construct, as opposed to just putting them into simple shapes like pillars, piles, cubes, balls, discs, spikes etc.

Yes, I agree with this. It should not be allowed for the likes of the examples you gave. Perhaps an addition like this is in order:

"This ability should not be given in the place of other powers, characters who use Earth Manipulation to create a pillar of rock would not qualify for Construction, and characters who use Ice Manipulation to create a wall of ice also would not, etcetera. Only characters with an innate ability to Construct objects without the use of another power should be given this ability"

Edit: Also minor nitpick: "Characters with this ability are capable of building entire fortresses in short amounts of time" <--- that should be "may be capable" or something instead, unless only fortress builders apply for this.

Makes sense. I'll change that.

 

[KieranH10]

Bumpo

 

[Antvasima]

@DontTalkDT

Kieran responded to your post.

 

[DontTalkDT]

I'm fine with the additions already done and the first bold text suggestion.

I would maybe change the second bold text a little to make it less exclusive. Maybe like this:

This ability should not be given in the place of basic applications of other powers, like for exampe for the use of Earth Manipulation to create a pillar of rock or the use of Ice Manipulation to create a wall of ice. Only characters with the ability to combine existing materials into complex objects or to shape a single material into a highly complex form qualify. Examples would be combining wooden planks into a staircase or forming a minuture model of a city from a rock respectively.

Or, if you really want to be more restrictive and say it must have an explicit separate construction ability, then I would ever so slightly modify it to:

This ability should not be given in the place of other powers, characters who use Earth Manipulation to create a pillar of rock would not qualify for Construction, and characters who use Ice Manipulation to create a wall of ice also would not, etcetera. Only characters with an separate ability to Construct objects without the use of another power should be given this ability.

 

[KieranH10]

Ok, I will add the first bold text suggestion when I get home.

I personally believe that the second suggestion you gave would work better. As this would stop this ability being confused with or used in the place of others.

 

[DontTalkDT]

That's fine with me.

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you for helping out. It seems like we have reached a conclusion here then.

 

[KieranH10]

Thank you everyone yes.

I will update the page later once I get home then, once that is done am I ok to upload it?

 

[Antvasima]

I think so, yes. I might try to improve a bit on the language flow/structure afterwards though.

 

[KieranH10]

That's fine, I will tell you when I have made the required changes so that you can fix whatever you believe necessary.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Thanks for helping out.

 

[KieranH10]

I have applied the changes.

 

[Antvasima]

I searched for a Construction page in the wiki, but could not find it.

 

[KieranH10]

I thought you were making some changes of your own? I thought I would allow you to make them beforehand.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, I don't know the location of your sandbox, so I thought that I would do them after you have created the main page..

 

[KieranH10]

Lol it was in the OP. No worries tho. I have uploaded it here.

 

[GojiBoyForever]

I disagree with this, if anything I feel it should be a subsidiary of creation. Building stuff does not seem like an ability to me unless it's done via supernatural means, which again is creation.