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Composite D&D

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Udlmaster

Udlmaster

They/Them
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Okay, I really want to nail this down because there has been debate over it and I want to over with ASAP because it could affect the verse quite a lot:

So, the Verse is Composite. We've been around the block more than once on this, and it seems the general conclusion is that the Multiverse is one for the case of these profiles.

Now, Mr.Bambu disagrees with this but this has already been accepted for a very long time, as far back as this:

Aparajita

This is my final reply on the topic, i don't care to continue this around in circles bullshit.

D&D is a very large verse that should be treated as composite due to it's size, complexity, and the sheer amount of authors, designers, and creators it has had throughout the 40 years of it's existence.


Edit: Holy shit, after looking at our profiles, we *already* consider D&D to be composite, with Gruumush scaling Vecna. Edited the OP.

Edited by Aparajita 00:16, February 19, 2017


That far back. Early Last year back.

So, with what we know about Mystara and how it's tied to the current Multiverse.

I am of the belief that beings like the LoP are able to affect this. Why? Because of these reasons:

  • The Lady of Pain was stated to have affected all Creation , all of Creation would include the Infinite Dimensions of Mystara.
  • As for the Superspace thing, I've given the example on why it can be Infinite Dimensional as well.
  • The Lady of Pain is in a Similar nature as a conduit for The Luminous Being's power, as she is as strong as he makes her as it is up to him what affects her.
  • The Lady of Pain was able to destroy the entire Multiverse , with a composite Cosmology, this means that, in this would include everyone's favourite "Mystara", and how do we know it would be affected, well, because it required the Lady of Pain to affect All Creation to repair the damage that was done by Vecna, who too was going to destroy the Multiverse.
 
Mystara is a different multiverse. It is a part of the composite verse, but that doesn't make every facet of reality true for, say, Mystara, to be true for Forgotten Realms. This is blatantly taking the facts out of context in order to achieve a higher rating and thus cannot be accepted.

This "infinite dimension" stuff only exists in Mystara. Not anywhere else. So saying "Lady of Pain scales because it is also in D&D" is blatantly wrong.

TL;DR the above falls under the false premise that composite = everything is the same for everything else.
 
Mr. Bambu said:
Mystara is a different multiverse. It is a part of the composite verse, but that doesn't make every facet of reality true for, say, Mystara, to be true for Forgotten Realms. This is blatantly taking the facts out of context in order to achieve a higher rating and thus cannot be accepted.
This "infinite dimension" stuff only exists in Mystara. Not anywhere else. So saying "Lady of Pain scales because it is also in D&D" is blatantly wrong.

TL;DR the above falls under the false premise that composite = everything is the same for everything else.
Click to expand...
>Mystara is a different multiverse.

Okay, well like I said, your claim that it's a seperate Multiverse doesn't apply, even Azzy himself has said they're the same Multiverse and it's already been accepted as a Composite Cosmology as far back 2017.

>It is a part of the composite verse, but that doesn't make every facet of reality true for, say, Mystara, to be true for Forgotten Realms. This is blatantly taking the facts out of context in order to achieve a higher rating and thus cannot be accepted.

Um, no? She's stated to affect all creation, Mystara is apart of ALL CREATION.

Also, facts out of context? You keep claiming this but never show proof, so Citation Needed.

>TL;DR the above falls under the false premise that composite = everything is the same for everything else.

No, not really, let's assume what you said was true, it's not the same Multiverse but it is apart of the Cosmology, then she'd still be High 1-B because she already affected all creation, Mystara apart of the Cosmology means that it's apart of All Creation.

You can't have it that it's both apart of the Cosmology and not apart of ALL creation.

Claiming otherwise is being intellectually dishonest on all accounts.
 
1. First off, Azzy's word is not law. Second off, it isn't. It just flat out isn't. It is an entirely different continuity, heavily exemplified by the fact that no gods actually exist in that multiverse. So... that's just wrong.

2. No, it isn't. Not the creation she was in. "All of creation" can easily be wanked to High 1-B, that doesn't mean it inherently is High 1-B. All creation, taken into moderation, can be as low as 3-A. In this case, there is no evidence of it being any higher dimensional level than LoP herself, i.e., 5th dimensional.

3. Again, all creation does not inherently affecting every single facet of every single creation. In this case it is much more likely to be referring only to the campaign setting Lady of Pain is uh.. you know, actually in, instead of a setting where not only does she not exist, but has never interacted with in any way shape or form. So "all creation" really only is proven to mean her setting. The burden of proof is on you to prove that she actually affected Mystara. Not only that, that she affected the infinite dimensions of Mystara- IIRC the immortals aren't terribly higher dimensional than Lady is already.
 
I think that Mr. Bambu seems to make sense.
 
>1. First off, Azzy's word is not law. Second off, it isn't. It just flat out isn't. It is an entirely different continuity, heavily exemplified by the fact that no gods actually exist in that multiverse. So... that's just wrong.

Oh, what a brilliant argument! "It isn't"

Cancer is deadly "it isn't"

Smoking is bad for your lungs "It isn't"

Brilliant! 10/10, except you're wrong as I said, it's been accepted as far back as 2017 and Azzy even gave a direct quote that states they are all apart of the same Multiverse.

Also, no Gods?

http://www.pandius.com/imm3e.html

Not enough? https://worldofmystara.wikia.com/wiki/Gods

Gods exist in Mystara.

>2. No, it isn't. Not the creation she was in. "All of creation" can easily be wanked to High 1-B, that doesn't mean it inherently is High 1-B. All creation, taken into moderation, can be as low as 3-A. In this case, there is no evidence of it being any higher dimensional level than LoP herself, i.e., 5th dimensional.

Taken into moderation? No, dude, you're flat out being intellectually dishonest by saying that all Creation in context can be 3-A in a Verse that throws around infinite planes like dust flower petals.

Also, "No evidence". Did you read the OP? Because I honestly think you haven't at all. Also, what about the Far Realm? You scale that from Mystara? And there's no statements about that being higher Dimensional?

Honestly, this is really intellectually dishonest.

>3. Again, all creation does not inherently affecting every single facet of every single creation. In this case it is much more likely to be referring only to the campaign setting Lady of Pain is uh.. you know, actually in, instead of a setting where not only does she not exist, but has never interacted with in any way shape or form.

"Affected all Creation" if it affected all creation then she affected all Creation, if it hadn't then it wouldn't be all creation, would it? Honestly.

>In this case it is much more likely to be referring only to the campaign setting Lady of Pain is uh.. you know, actually in, instead of a setting where not only does she not exist, but has never interacted with in any way shape or form.

That's ignoring the Composite Cosmology, which you actually literally fell for the exact example I gave, you say it's apart of the Composite Cosmology but then say it's not apart of All creation.

It's literally exactly how I put it, you are being FULLY dishonest to the fact that we consider them all to connected, again, previously stated long before we've had this argument, "it isn't" isn't an argument.

AT ALL.

>The burden of proof is on you to prove that she actually affected Mystara. Not only that, that she affected the infinite dimensions of Mystara- IIRC the immortals aren't terribly higher dimensional than Lady is already.

All creation, do I need to go over definitions with you?

"adverb

completely."

Everything that's in creation would be the entire verse, most of all because it's changed the Version of the Game, away from 2E, which included Mystara and the last time we'd see it for a long time.
 
Except that isn't my argument. My argument is that nothing you're saying is what a "composite" is. Composite doesn't just mash every single multiverse together like some sort of Frankenstein's monster. Mystara's setting having potentially infinite dimensions does not inherently mean all multiverses have infinite dimensions. Especially when, let me reiterate, Lady of Pain doesn't even exist in Mystara, nor does any god.

Now then, your two sources. One deliberately refers to them as "Immortals"- which is what they are, by the by- and the other seems to be some incomplete wiki with little work put into it.

Gods don't exist in Mystara.

I'm saying 3-A is a possibility. Because context matters. Without context, All of Creation can be anything. In context, it has no showings of High 1-B. We both know that.

No, it isn't ignoring composite cosmology. Because our cosmology assumes they all exist (which is somewhat supported in-verse, with people like Elminster knowing Mordenkainen). That said, Mystara is another multiverse with a clearly unique spatial layout, which was agreed upon when you first brought it up- Mystara is the exception, not the standard.

All of creation is not proof. Because, again, it is much more plausible it refers only to the "all of creation" Lady was in at the time.

Basically your entire "argument" relies on the Mystara multiverse, which was agreed to have unique properties compared to the rest of the verse, being accepted as the 100% standard based on a few lines of text compared to everything else in the verse.

I vehemently vote no to the uograde on the premise of "Mystara = The same as the rest of the verse = clearly High 1-B"
 
>Except that isn't my argument. My argument is that nothing you're saying is what a "composite" is. Composite doesn't just mash every single multiverse together like some sort of Frankenstein's monster.

We're not, 5e did, it's already a thing. There's literally not an argument to be had.

> Mystara's setting having potentially infinite dimensions does not inherently mean all multiverses have infinite dimensions.

Yeah, it doesn't. Because there's only one.

>Especially when, let me reiterate, Lady of Pain doesn't even exist in Mystara, nor does any god.

You literally didn't read my post, I already showed that Gods exist in Mystara.

>Now then, your two sources. One deliberately refers to them as "Immortals"- which is what they are, by the by- and the other seems to be some incomplete wiki with little work put into it.

Did you read the first paragraph?

"The following Immortals represent the most well known and powerful of those worshipped on Mystara, including both the outer and hollow worlds. Together, the list includes probably 90% of them, omitting the least powerful gods and their smaller cults."

>I'm saying 3-A is a possibility. Because context matters. Without context, All of Creation can be anything. In context, it has no showings of High 1-B. We both know that.

All Creation, Mystara is apart of ALL creation. Also called Superspace, Superspace is also a synonym for Super Vector Space, Super Vector Spaces contain Infinite-Dimensions. Superspace itself follows Vector Space mathmatics which contains Infinite-Dimensions.

In both scenarios, they can lead to Infinite Dimensions. So in context, yes, it can have showsing of High 1-B. I even went over it before.

>No, it isn't ignoring composite cosmology. Because our cosmology assumes they all exist (which is somewhat supported in-verse, with people like Elminster knowing Mordenkainen).

Then was controdicted by facts we found later. Like I said, even Azzy agreed that Mystara was in the same Multiverse.

>That said, Mystara is another multiverse with a clearly unique spatial layout, which was agreed upon when you first brought it up- Mystara is the exception, not the standard.

And that doesn't matter, because even if it was a different Multiverse, it is still apart of the Whole of Creation, when affecting All creation, YOU AFFECT ALL CREATION. You keep saying "Well it's a different Multiverse" and "Muh context" but even the context disagrees with you. I gave the definition of All, and Sigil isn't even located in a Universe, it's disconnected from Reality itself anyway.

>All of creation is not proof. Because, again, it is much more plausible it refers only to the "all of creation" Lady was in at the time.

Center of THE Multiverse, not A Multiverse. Same Edition in which Mystara was still a thing. All other shown settings have been shown to be in the same Multiverse, Mystara is no exception to this as shown with the statement Azzy gave.

Additionally, there has only ever been stated to be 1 Multiverse, "The Multiverse" there has never been another Multiverse stated before.

And I've already gone over how All Creation still affects Mystara even if I give you the benefit of the doubt.

>Basically your entire "argument" relies on the Mystara multiverse, which was agreed to have unique properties compared to the rest of the verse, being accepted as the 100% standard based on a few lines of text compared to everything else in the verse.

The wording here is very off. But no, it's not the standard, this isn't even going to be affecting the "standard" for any other beings besides the LoP and The Serpent.

Also "Few lines of text":

You mean like the ENTIRE VERSE. This isn't a Show or Manga series, they will give you the facts printed down once. Again, we give the Far Realm 1-A status for being outside the Reality of a High 1-B Multiverse. Sigil is also disconnected from Reality, The Lady of Pain IS Sigil. I don't need to explain more do I?

>I vehemently vote no to the uograde on the premise of "Mystara = The same as the rest of the verse = clearly High 1-B"

No, my logic is "Mystara contains Infinite Dimensions, to affect all Creation, you need to affect ALL creation, which would include Mystara. No matter what, if it's a different Multiverse or the is the same one, she still affected it with "All Creation" if it somehow magically in your logic "didn't" then it would be called ALL CREATION, then would it?"
 
Mystara has not been officially supported for ages. Furthermore, show proof of all multiverses being the exact same multiverse (as in, all settings are the same setting and there are literally no different settings), because that is the implication.

There isn't only one, see above.

I did read your post. You linked to the "Immortals" of Mystara (which are notably not gods, just ascended beings). True deities do not exist. Hell, Sigil doesn't even exist in Mystara IIRC.

Superspace has been debunked on the premise that it means a minimum of five dimensional space, which is already High 2-A. Additionally, Mystara is not inherently part of the same creation, since there is an obvious difference in multiverses. As I said above, I don't believe Sigil ever existed in Mystara- and yet, it is the center of the multiverse. How is that so? Different multiverses. I have seen no evidence to suggest anything different.

From the setting's point of view, that was THE Multiverse. THE Multiverse they were in. Not all Multiverses.

Far Realm was never accepted at 1-A, just that it is outside multiversal space. It doesn't "transcend" it, just is outside of it.

Finally. Mystara is not even confirmed to have infinite dimensions, some of the immortals just think it does because it would make sense. They know it contains... what was it, six, I believe? So High 1-B even in Mystara is far from confirmed, and is rather a possibly, hence our rating for Lumi.

What you're proposing is "Mystara Setting = All Settings" when that blatantly isn't the case, since beings from one setting are not present in the other and they function on fundamentally different ideas. Lady of Pain affecting all of her setting does not automatically mean she affected Mystara purely because it exists in the same verse. She has no mention of being in Mystara, and has never been mentioned inside of it.
 
@Zach No, it isn't. That'd be like saying everyone in Marvel is 1-A because they are outside of the 1-A characters. 1-A would require transcendence, which the Far Realm doesn't do. It is just outside.
 
>Mystara has not been officially supported for ages. Furthermore, show proof of all multiverses being the exact same multiverse (as in, all settings are the same setting and there are literally no different settings), because that is the implication.

"This book, the Player's Handbook, and the Monster Manual present the default assumptions for how the worlds of D&D work. Among the established settings of D&D, the Forgotten Realms, Greyhawk, Dragonlance, and Mystara don't stray very far from those assumptions." - Dungeon Master's Guide (5e), pg 9

>There isn't only one, see above.

See Above.

>I did read your post. You linked to the "Immortals" of Mystara (which are notably not gods, just ascended beings). True deities do not exist. Hell, Sigil doesn't even exist in Mystara IIRC.

I believe I remember a reference to it.

>Superspace has been debunked on the premise that it means a minimum of five dimensional space, which is already High 2-A.

No, it doesn't mean a "Minimum of five dimensional space", if you want to go with the Minimum, then it's 4th Dimensional. Which we know the Lady isn't.

So, no, not debunked at all.

>Additionally, Mystara is not inherently part of the same creation, since there is an obvious difference in multiverses. As I said above, I don't believe Sigil ever existed in Mystara- and yet, it is the center of the multiverse. How is that so? Different multiverses. I have seen no evidence to suggest anything different.

Well, maybe because it's outside from Reality, it can sit at the center of said Multiverse.

>From the setting's point of view, that was THE Multiverse. THE Multiverse they were in. Not all Multiverses.

If you believe there is more than 1 Multiverse, then get a citation where it says there's different Multiverses, it's your assertion, so the Burden of Proof is on you.

>Finally. Mystara is not even confirmed to have infinite dimensions, some of the immortals just think it does because it would make sense. They know it contains... what was it, six, I believe? So High 1-B even in Mystara is far from confirmed, and is rather a possibly, hence our rating for Lumi.

The Immortals exist on 5-D scale and the Old Ones are at least 6th dimensional.

Also, said Math is made by vastly Superhuman intelligence Gods, who are beyond the minds of Humans, and there's no reason to think they're wrong either.

>What you're proposing is "Mystara Setting = All Settings" when that blatantly isn't the case, since beings from one setting are not present in the other and they function on fundamentally different ideas.

You do know the Far Realm wasn't mentioned in Mystara to my knowledge, right? So, does the Far Realm then no longer be 1-A and therefore, Lumi is just baseline 1-A?

> Lady of Pain affecting all of her setting does not automatically mean she affected Mystara purely because it exists in the same verse. She has no mention of being in Mystara, and has never been mentioned inside of it.

Okay then, by that Logic, we shouldn't Scale Lumi to anyone but Ao, Lumi was never mentioned in Mystara, therefore, he shouldn't be scaled to it. Treat them both the same.

Also, again, Mystara is apart of All Creation, by default, she affected Mystara. If it is it's own Multiverse or Not, she still affected it.

And it wasn't "All of her setting" It was the entire VERSE. She changed the Verse's editions, it's beyond just the setting, it affected everything, why do you think it's a change in the entire edition of the game?

Because Mystara doesn't exist in 3e and 3.5e could be because it was lost when she repaired the Multiverse, from a lore standard, she had to have affected it when she altered the Versions of the Game.
 
ZacharyGrossman273 said:
Far Realm is 1-A, actually, due to how Mystara's multiverse works (Uncountably infinite)

That being said, Lady never affected the far realm, ever.
Click to expand...
I haven't claimed she did here.

Also, like I said, Sigil itself is disconnected from Reality.
 
Sigil is a special case. My point in bringing it up is that Sigil is the center of the multiverse (if you allow such a thought in an infinitely large space, mind). But Sigil is not mentioned in Mystara.

And yes, Superspace is minimum of 4-D. But in this case we know there are beings transcendent over 4-D space, so in this case, the minimum is 5-D. Which is still, funnily enough, not High 1-B. Additionally, Immortals being gods (your argument, I believe, which I disagree with still) would mean little since that equates to High 2-A anyways. Great Ones aren't terribly important in this equation.

And yes, there is reason to think they are wrong. They even state they're not sure. So yes, we have a reason. The only reason to assume they're right is because they are smart.

And yes. Lumi is baseline 1-A. I said that ages ago. Even then, that functions under the wide assumption that Mystara is in fact High 1-B, which nobody knows if that is true.

While it is true Lumi was never mentioned in Mystara, he is inherently the transcendent being of the verse. It isn't the same as scaling LoP to it, who is just a creature inside of one setting.

Mystara is not by default a part of the "creation" LoP affected. Mystara doesn't even exist in the edition where Lady does this. So uh. Yeah it got retconned out.
 
>Sigil is a special case. My point in bringing it up is that Sigil is the center of the multiverse (if you allow such a thought in an infinitely large space, mind). But Sigil is not mentioned in Mystara.

Well, technically, it's not in any setting, it's disconnected from all reality, it's not technically in any setting.

>And yes, Superspace is minimum of 4-D. But in this case we know there are beings transcendent over 4-D space, so in this case, the minimum is 5-D. Which is still, funnily enough, not High 1-B. Additionally, Immortals being gods (your argument, I believe, which I disagree with still) would mean little since that equates to High 2-A anyways. Great Ones aren't terribly important in this equation.

But that is a huge low-ball and is actually downplaying the fact that it very well could reach infinite-dimensional, and would tie in with Mystara's Infinite Dimensions as well.

Also, yes, it does contain Gods:

https://cdn.preterhuman.net/texts/gaming_and_diversion/RPG/TSR 1021 Master Rules Boxed Set.pdf


Dungeons & Dragons Immortals Rules is for something called the "Basic set". The Master Rule book is apart of this as well.

It states Gods exist.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dungeons_&_Dragons_Immortals_Rules

>And yes, there is reason to think they are wrong. They even state they're not sure. So yes, we have a reason. The only reason to assume they're right is because they are smart.

String Theory, all of our Multi-Dimensional theories. This is literally not an argument. They didn't just assume there was Infinite Dimensions, they were stated to have used Maths. Just like Humans except they have much higher intellect.

>And yes. Lumi is baseline 1-A. I said that ages ago. Even then, that functions under the wide assumption that Mystara is in fact High 1-B, which nobody knows if that is true.

And what about the Far Realm? Just because in that 1 book it wasn't stated doesn't mean it doesn't exist in said cosmology.

>While it is true Lumi was never mentioned in Mystara, he is inherently the transcendent being of the verse. It isn't the same as scaling LoP to it, who is just a creature inside of one setting.

And the LoP changed the entire verse's editions.

>Mystara is not by default a part of the "creation" LoP affected. Mystara doesn't even exist in the edition where Lady does this. So uh. Yeah it got retconned out.

Actually, it does, Mystara did actually show up for 2e and that was the last time we saw it. So yes, it does exist in 2e, and in 3e it doesn't exist. "So uh. Yeah, she retconned it out."
 
Sigil is in settings tho. It is clearly mentioned. Mystara? No such thing.

Anything can reach infinite dimensional. We do not go around assuming it does without proof, of which we have very little.

Gonna need a page for the Gods existing thing. And that those gods aren't just the aforementioned Immortals.

You want to use string theory as an argument? Alright. Explain to me the proposed string theory of D&D, in your eyes, since you intend to make D&D several infinities stronger than it actually is, tell me the string theory you'd like to propose that makes this possible. Because as of now, you have some immortals from another reality saying it might be infinite but with no idea on whether or not this is the case and a few technobabble terms that don't actually support it, again, just a possibility in an infinite set of possibilities. And yes, they didn't state it has infinite dimensions. In fact they only said it should, but had no way of possibly proving it. So we have no idea if they were right, and your argument relies wholly on us accepting these immortals are right while even they say "not sure b0ss".

LoP has no proof of retconning out Mystara considering the company was edging it out for years beforehand. It just didn't exist. They stopped running it.
 
"Immortals have entered the lore and legends of the world through these chance encounters. When Immortals are careful to disguise their nature, myth reports them as witches. In the rare cases where they are indiscreet, mortals may think them to be gods. When Master-level characters discover the existence of Immortals, they often picture them as superior, uncaring beings who see the world and the mortals thereon as their playing field and pawns." (pg 51)

Not gods.

Every other mention of god in this book is either "Puzzles of the gods" (poetic speech) or books the setting referenced.
 
>Sigil is in settings tho. It is clearly mentioned. Mystara? No such thing.

I was talking about the technicallity, as it's actually disconnected from Reality.

And in Ravenloft and such, it's never mentioned. The only tie in was "Die, Vecna, Die!".

>Anything can reach infinite dimensional. We do not go around assuming it does without proof, of which we have very little.

So you admit it is proof.

>Gonna need a page for the Gods existing thing. And that those gods aren't just the aforementioned Immortals.

Press Ctrl+F and it brings up multiple Gods.

Also, Odin is flat out named.

>Wall of text which misunderstands my entire point.

My argument wasn't that String theory exists in D&D, my argument is, is that saying "Well, we can't see it, so it doesn't exist" isn't an argument based on our own reality and conceptions of Maths, a lot of Physics is stuff we cannot see.

If you have an issue with US not seeing the Higher Dimensions of Reality, then wouldn't you have a problem with every verse that does anything similar?

>LoP has no proof of retconning out Mystara considering the company was edging it out for years beforehand. It just didn't exist. They stopped running it.

So, from a Lore stand point, what do you think happened to it? Oh right, she got rid of it when she Repaired the Multiverse.
 
Ctrl+_F brings up beings based on gods. It also has the above statement of them being confused for gods while not actually being gods.

Sigil is disconnected from reality since when.

And no, I don't admit it is proof, but you can interpret things that are saying the opposite to what you want I guess.

It isn't that we don't see it. It is that there is literally no evidence of this.

There is no lore point. It just stopped running. You're just attributing a fan theory to it.
 
I still think that Mr. Bambu makes sense.

Also, he is correct about that being present in a higher realm is not the same as automatically reaching that degree oneself, and that being outside of reality is not automatically the same as transcending it.
 
> So, with what we know about Mystara and how it's tied to the current Multiverse.

It should also be noted that Mystra has an explicit barrier that prevents anything from normally reaching/effecting the sixth dimension or higher space. The LoP could only affect 5-Dimensional space and fit in with both the main and Mystaraian dimensional structure. Since according the Gygax himself the core multiverse is only 4-Dimensional. Meaning that the LoP can transcend that and still be bounded by the barrier.
 
Also like mentioned, the Immortals in Mystara share similar names as gods but that's about it. Mystara Zeus/Odin/Bast are just Immortals that happen to have very similar characteristics of Gods. But they were all explictly 100% humans/mortals at some point in their lives.

For example in Mystara Odin, Thor, Loki, and Hela are not related. None of the Mystara Greek people are related from my memory as well.
 
>Sigil is disconnected from reality since when.

Yeah, it's disconnected from Reality.

>And no, I don't admit it is proof, but you can interpret things that are saying the opposite to what you want I guess.

You said this: "We do not go around assuming it does without proof, of which we have very little. " You are denoting that it is very little proof, therefore calling it proof.

>It isn't that we don't see it. It is that there is literally no evidence of this.

Quite, besides decaces of Maths and people's carreers being thrown into the subject to ravel its mysteries. It's not like we base most of our math based on the same "unseeable" physics you just said "there's no evidence off". Do you know why they are maths for this stuff? This isn't Philosophy where one asouses the ideas of said topic.

>There is no lore point. It just stopped running. You're just attributing a fan theory to it.

There is a Lore-stand point. Mystara ceased existing post 2e, meaning that between the intrerum between 2e and 3e Mystara was lost to us as stated when it talks about realms being lost and new ones found.

>It should also be noted that Mystra has an explicit barrier that prevents anything from normally reaching/effecting the sixth dimension or higher space. The LoP could only affect 5-Dimensional space and fit in with both the main and Mystaraian dimensional structure. Since according the Gygax himself the core multiverse is only 4-Dimensional. Meaning that the LoP can transcend that and still be bounded by the barrier.

Said Barrier was never described to affect beings like the LoP, you know, the same being who was going to destroy All Creation.

And so, from reading your comment, you're arguing from my point, that Mystara and the Main D&D verse are the same.

As for this, she already affected All creation, the Dimensional Vortex is apart of Creation, all the Dimensions beyond are apart of Creation.

Again, do I have to explain the definition of ALL?
 
> Said Barrier was never described to affect beings like the LoP

But it affects everyone and everything. Immortals, Mortals, Demons, Devils, Outsiders, etc cannot pierce the barrier. The only thing allowed through it are ascended Immortals and things the Old Ones allow

> you know, the same being who was going to destroy All Creation.

She just said the multiverse. The multiverse in this context could easily just be the 4-Dimensional construct rather than a High 1-B thing.

> that Mystara and the Main D&D verse are the same.

They are, but the core D&D world is a seperate multiverse from the Mystara one. Both exist on the 4th Dimension but you can't travel from one to the other without using special stuff.

> As for this, she already affected All creation

She repaired the damage Vecna did to the multiverse, which would only be a 2-A thing. She also did that in his restricted state, not her true form and needed to be in the Sigil itself to even accomplish such a thing.
 
I guess my point is "High 2-A, possibly higher" is a better way to scale her than just straight up "1-C, likely High 1-B".
 
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