Code Vein Upgrade

[DarkGrath]

Welp, this has been a long time coming. I'll try and keep this brief, since I know I have a bad tendency to ramble on these kinds of revisions.

Tiering
Code Vein is set in the same universe as God Eater. Normally this would lead to questions or doubts over cross-scaling, but since they were both made by the same developers, Code Vein references God Eater very frequently, and I'm pretty sure the developers even confirmed it on one occasion, it's clear that the only difference between the two franchises is the name. Before, this didn't really mean anything as there was no scaling between the two whatsoever, but with the new Hellfire Knight DLC for Code Vein we've hit the jackpot.

The titular Hellfire Knight in the DLC itself is very heavily implied to be a Hannibal from the God Eater series. While my knowledge on the God Eater games is a bit more limited than with Code Vein, from what I understand after discussion with people more knowledgeable on them than I am, Hannibals are vastly superior to normal God Eaters and comparable to some of the strongest, such as Lindow Amamiya (who is heavily implied to be related to Louis Amamiya, fun fact).

So the Queenslayer is capable of fighting against and killing a Hannibal, who would be comparable to characters like Lindow Amamiya, who in the games was Low 6-B. This justifies considering them comparable, and therefore upgrading the Queenslayer to Low 6-B as well. This scaling is hopefully not too controversial; however, there are other things to be discussed.

First, what keys this would scale to. The Hellfire Knight fight is available through the DLC, which you can't access until you beat Juzo Mido, which means that this should scale to the Late-Game cast. As for the Early-Game and End-Game cast, things are a bit more complicated.

We currently scale the different keys via Queen's Relics. The Queen's Relics are assumed to work as exact multipliers, given that they all seem to be almost exactly equal in power, and that they grant all the power of the relic to the user (with this almost always being used for comparisons in the game). The Early Game cast scales to being comparable to singular Queen Relics, the Late Game cast scales to being vastly above 3 of the Queens Relics, and the End Game cast scales to being comparable to 10 of the Queens Relics.

So if we assume the Late Game cast, via multipliers, to be at least 3x stronger than the Early Game cast, we can logically also say that the Early Game cast is one third as strong as the Late Game cast. The current Low 6-B calc we are scaling from here is this one, and if we divide the result by 3, we get 6.39019333 x 10^11 tonnes of TNT, which puts the Early Game cast at High 6-C, or Large Island level.

...or maybe this is over-complicating things, and we shouldn't extrapolate too far from the data we have, and just give them "At most Low 6-B" via being far weaker than their Late-Game counterparts. I'm hoping for input on this.

Given that the scaling between the Late-Game (vastly above 3 Queen Relics) and End-Game (comparable to 10 Queen Relics) is difficult to pin down, it should probably be simplified and we should just give the End-Game cast "At least Low 6-B" via being far stronger than before.

So, to summarise this section:

The Queenslayer (and all comparable characters): Should be upgraded to either High 6-C or At most Low 6-B for their Early-Game keys, Low 6-B for their Mid-Game keys, and At least Low 6-B for their End-Game keys.

Now, for more simplistic additions.

Abilities
Given that the Queen's Relics are capable of creating Crypts, giant masses that they contain themselves in seemingly created via Reality Warping, all users of Queen's Relics (such as The Queenslayer, Gregorio Silva, and The Virgin Born) should get Reality Warping.

And with the new DLC came new abilities and blood codes, including Tranquil Slice, which rips the air itself at a given location to create a vacuum, as demonstrated here:



This is likely to be updated further in the future, but the description seems to indicate this would be an example of Spatial Manipulation. especially since it's basically Judgement Cut, c'mon

And I believe that concludes the revisions. now I don't have to worry about trying to properly tier that bloody mountain feat and I can leave it behind

 

[Lightning_XXI]

I don't see a problem in using the multipliers option if they are already accepted and used for scalling in the verse, even more when using them gives us accurate values

I'm also fine with the rest

 

[DarkGrath]

Great.

 

[ShivaShakti]

I agree

 

[Paul_Frank]

I agree as well

 

[DarkGrath]

Do you both agree with the High 6-C or At most Low 6-B for the Early-Game?

 

[DarkGrath]

Bump

 

[Nier_Hitoshura]

I agree with these changes as well.

 

[DarkGrath]

I would like a bit more input on this, though since the amount of supporters for this verse is very small/quite inactive most of the time, I'd be willing to just get some staff input to get this applied at the moment (preferably a Content Mod or Admin). Is there anyone I should contact?

 

[Mr. Bambu]

I'd like any proof of them being the same verse to be brought all together in one comment if possible? Proof that Hellfire Knight = Hannibal, proof the Developers have mentioned them being the same verse, and so on. Once that's done I will work from there.

 

[DarkGrath]

I'll see what I can round up.

For them taking place in the same verse though, this is quite easy to explain right away. A Dyaus Pita (one of the monsters from God Eater) appears outright in Code Vein in one of the cutscenes, with all descriptions of it (and similar monsters) afterwards making extremely direct references to God Eater (such as, for example, describing how they are immune to conventional weaponry, the exact wording and phrasing used to describe them in the God Eater series). On top of this, the exact same calamity had affected the world in both God Eater and Code Vein, with it being explained that Code Vein was simply being set in the middle of an area that had been protected from the aragami present in God Eater. While only a side note, it should also be noted that they were both made by the same development team, which should remove potential worries that would come with cross-scaling.

I'll see if I can find the statement regarding Code Vein and God Eater being directly set in the same verse; since that was mainly going off of memory, and admittedly shouldn't have been brought up unless I could source the quote itself. Either way though; the game takes few liberties with referencing the characters and events of God Eater, doing so quite frequently in both direct and indirect ways, so the statement shouldn't matter. And as for the Hellfire Knight = Hannibal thing, I will have to check with other people, as that mainly came from people more knowledgeable on God Eater than I am (though I've been told that his in-game file outright states he's a Hannibal and an aragami; I'll have to check it myself, since I haven't finished the DLC). If it's any credence not much on it's own, but eh the design of the Hellfire Knight and the Hannibals is nearly identical.

 

[Andytrenom]

Can't really give input without scans and direct statements on a verse I'm not familiar with

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Grab scans if you can? I can't really confirm all this without proper info.

 

[DarkGrath]

Yeah, fine by me. I'll see if I can find good videos/pictures for each of them.

 

[DarkGrath]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0JtOR1nckio

This is the Dyaus Pita cutscene with the horrible english voice acting, bleh

For an easy comparison, here's a Dyaus Pita from God Eater.





Here is one of the examples of the aragami being mentioned in-game, with one of the descriptions about how they are immune to conventional weaponry lining up with what's stated in God Eater.





Trying to explain the calamity being the same is a bit more complicated, as there are (surprisingly) few good screenshots of both of them that demonstrate what happened.. But both were caused by the Thorns of Judgement piercing the earth, as shown in the backgrounds of both these shots from God Eater and Code Vein. The Vein Lore] page (which contains every direct lore description available in Code Vein itself) describes this in detail, with the statement:

"There is little information available as to the nature of the collapse. The Collapse consisted of the emergence of enormous thorns from the earth, known as the Thorns of Judgement, across every city in the world."





These pictures have a rough comparison between an ancient hannibal and the Hellfire Knight (again, apologies for the bad screenshots; these are pretty obscure games, so there are very few good screenshots online).

The user SanguineStorms mentioned on the Code Vein Discussion Thread that they had played through the whole DLC and they dumped all of the lore and story found within; bringing up the fact that the game explicitly calls it a Hannibal. This is still a fact that I will need to check. Regardless, however, there were many other lore descriptions mentioned alongside those that would also function for scaling regardless (such as stating that they fought many other aragami along the way, with the Hellfire Knight just being "the most powerful", which would already be more than enough for scaling to Lindow Amamiya, which is the point here)


This is all quite messy and cluttered, and probably doesn't explain everything very clearly. I apologise in advance. The points that I'm trying to make are:

- Code Vein and God Eater do 100% take place in the same universe, referencing each-other constantly in both direct (like with the appearance of the Dyaus Pita) and indirect ways. And due to being made by the exact same developers, it shouldn't be unreasonable to cross-scale.

- Alongside this crossover, the main cast is shown to be capable of fighting aragami, most notably the Hellfire Knight.

- Fighting aragami alone would be enough to scale the main cast to game Lindow Amamiya, via trading blows with the same enemies, with the Hannibal giving the best indication of the scaling.

 

[Andytrenom]

Scans of them knight being called a hannibal would be good

 

[DarkGrath]

I've asked SanguineStorms to comment here; since he was the one who brought up the lore regarding the Hellfire Knight on the discussion thread which led to creating this CRT. Playing through the DLC myself at the moment; I haven't seen anything explicitly calling the Hellfire Knight a Hannibal, but there is confirmation that they are an aragami, which would still on it's own be enough to scale to Lindow.

This is confirmed in the dialogue here, where they mention that the area they are being led to is the den of one of the "horrors" (which is used synonymously in Code Vein to refer to the aragami). The place turns out to be the den of the Hellfire Knight. And since the aragami are capable of fighting against Lindow, the main cast of the game would scale via fighting against the Hellfire Knight.

I'd still like to wait for SanguineStorms to get back and explain where the lore in the DLC is explicitly stated, especially in regards to the Hannibal (as he mentioned with confidence that it was stated in the game that it is a Hannibal, which I haven't found yet). The Hellfire Knight and Hannibals both look and fight almost exactly the same, though I highly doubt that's what he meant when he said that it was "stated in the game". Either way though; this should still be valid for scaling to Lindow, Hannibal or not.

 

[DarkGrath]

Letsa bump!

 

[DarkGrath]

Here is another piece of proof that the Hellfire Knight is an aragami. As mentioned before, Code Vein uses the term "horror" synonymously with aragami, and they both refer to the same thing. This lore description confirms that the Hellfire Knight was one of the horrors, and therefore an aragami.




I managed to also catch screenshots from this cutscene, where it is not only confirmed that it is a horror, but that it is far, far stronger than any of the horrors they had seen before.

I've still yet to hear back from SanguineStorms about the Hannibal thing, and while it can pretty reasonably be assumed from what's shown in-game (considering that it's also an aragami with the exact same appearance and fighting style of the Hannibals) I haven't been able to find any direct mention of it in-game. Regardless of the Hannibal connection; simply being an aragami alone would suffice for the scaling, since aragami can harm Lindow and Lindow has Low 6-B durability.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

I tenuously agree. Generally I dislike mashing together verses but between this and a tiny bit of side investigation on my part I can confirm that there are definitely direct links (Dyaus Pita being extremely prevalent, apparently, for one).

So I guess I'm fine with this?

 

[DarkGrath]

Thank you. There are a couple of other Code Vein supporters I'd like to get the input of here; if I can get at least one of them, I think this would be fine to apply.

 

[Schnee_One]

I can agree to this

 

[DarkGrath]

I have looked around for more people to ask, though the only people involved with the verse who haven't gone on this thread yet are users who are generally a bit inactive in my experience. With the approval of most of the supporters, along with Mr Bambu and Schnee One, should this be safe to apply?

 

[SanguineStorms]

The in game files of Code Vein have hellfire knight listed as follows

 

[DarkGrath]

Ahh, that explains it. The file itself refers to them an Ancient Hannibal?

 

[Andytrenom]

I'm fine with the AP revision then

 

[SanguineStorms]

The two other Aragami are listed as "Ancient" Vajra and "Ancient" Marduk.

Currently. Hellfire knight does everything a Hannibal does and the in game files labels him as such.

The whole point of the True end of Code Vein is leaving the Vein to help the God eaters outside.

Louis says that beyond the mist they picked up calls for help and thay people are fighting.

Well, in Yakumo's Vestiges it makes it very clear that bullets anr explosives don't do a thing to Aragami.

So regular humans would have not lasted that long especially with them growing even stronger than they were.

However, no Aragami to date has been likened to a second great collapse which means the Queen did ALOT of damage more then it is showing in the game and more then they are letting on.

Aragami have Bloodcodes Surt is Hannibal's blood code, the Queenslayer kills that hannibal and takes its blood code effectively gaining its power and physiolgy based on how stats are moved around when switching blood codes which it a tell-tell sign the Queenslayer is making geneticially changing himself in regards to the blood codes hence him being able to move faster or slower.

Anyways, the skill description for tranquil slice says: Deliver an Unprecivable attack from a draw stance.

We actually do not see him even swing his arms he just makes a slight movement and a barrage of slashes cut the distance.

This is faster than any god eater attacking, being the guy that has all God eaters except resonance ops and Online.

No attack from any god eater is unable to be seen in nature.

Thats a ridiculous move, it literally is a blantant Judgement cut lite move.

Also yeah, most god eaters do not tangle with hannibals/cannot tangle with them.

Hell an Ogretail eats Eric and thats a fodder Aragami.

Hannibal is beyond it by quite the scope, most God eaters dont tangle with Vajra or Dyaus Pita either.

No way is a weak tiny ogretail from God eater burst even comparable in the slightest to Ancient Hannibal.

He also moves the exact same speed so Regular hannibal certaintly didnt gain any speed amps.

By logic Lorewise the Queenslayer should be able to move its speed since he has the surt bloodcode and can do everything it can do.

 

[DarkGrath]

I see. Well, I'm mildly busy at the moment, but I think I can apply the changes. I'll also look into adjusting the profiles to fit in with the basic infoboxes if possible.

 

[SanguineStorms]

I would also still point out the fact Revenant appear to be able to permanently kill Aragami since its been decades and the Aragami in Vein still haven't came back.

And during the time of the main story only three survived the purging. The game also makes it a point to rather say slayed instead say "Obliterated" Obliterate is very odd words to choose.

Obliterate: destroy utterly; wipe out.

This points to the Hannibal being completely destroyed and is permanently dead.

He only respawns because you rest at a mistle and the horror challenges so you can unlock all the DLC goodies.

Which interesting enough have lore that is quite strange in regards to them.

The Revenant weapons can also warp due to exposure to an Aragami since thats literally what the inferno blade is.

Its a queenslayer sword that was exposed to the hellfire flames of the hannibal and it warps its appearence because of it.

This really points to their weapons being alive almost like it adapted and warped to become stronger.

 

[DarkGrath]

Alright, I'm pretty sure all the changes have been implemented. I'll close this then.