Classroom of the elite Downgrade Calc

[StorytellingDemonKing]

I agree with completely removing not only this calc but also the feat in general. (Well, maybe the feat could be used for Peak Human justification) The verse operates on peak human levels, and for all we know the dent could have been a slight bulge barely any millimeters deep, so to assume she made a foot shaped hole 4 cm deep without even close to such implications is a bit wild. What's more, she is more or less a mid-tier in the verse with no top-tiers replicating anything close to this. And the OP also brings up other great points previously not thought about

As for the Subsonic+ rating, it should also go. All the scenes regarding "blitzing" seem to talk about characters being fast in general, not moving beyond human reaction. (IMO, a lot of series have this issue, of where Character A blitzes B, but the next second they keep trading blows, so the whole "blitz" was a simple moment of "cool")

I heard a volume of Ayanokoji's backstory in the White Room is coming up, so maybe that could be used later for feats or scaling - if there are any. But yeah, that's it from me.

 

[Doggo]

The elevator feat needs a re calc. The subsonic stuff should stay

 

[Second22]

The elevator feat needs a re calc. The subsonic stuff should stay

I don't think oscillating the elevator will produce that much energy.

as it is a slight vibration This makes the velocity very slow, probably only 0.01 m/s approximately.

elevator ranges from 2,100 to 6,000 pounds (about 454 to 2,722 kg). The elevator’s floor dimensions, material, and support structure all plays a role in this figure. From cloud

So…
E = 1/2 * 2722 * 0.01^2 = 0.1361 J. Oops..

Energy depends on speed This is another guess. I think the elevator oscillating calculation is unnecessary, should be removed.

 

[Second22]

As for speed, I'm still not sure. I don't agree with the calculation. because of a lot of guesswork And moves that are not punching and kicking. Does it make its speed that high? At least I think it should have been give Possibly for him from assuming she moved 1 m.

 

[Fikriskps]

O yes me agree

 

[Fikriskps]

I would add this, I think it would be Usefull to debunk the Speed.

And about this verse speed context as i seen so far Ayanokoji Only Blitzed Amazawa At Some Scene I seen. Why dont its just Atleast Subsonic Since He Blitz Amazawa.

flaws:

• Amazawa Isnt Moving 1Meters With 34.3m/s same time as ayanokoji Traveling 5meter to reach her, This Make Complicated about the calculation
  
  
• And even the page writted that

Do not randomly assume a 1 meter distance for each timeframe and use that speed for the reaction speed.

Insted just give Ayanokoji Subsonic Since He can blitz Amazawa And The Perceptions Page Would say the same As:

• If character A can blitz character B, A's movement speed may be scaled to B's reaction speed. So scale Ayanokoji As Subsonic since amazawa Feats can Punch People with Subsonic

 

[Second22]

The only thing necessary right now is CGMs's opinion, but it seems like they don't want to get involved with this matter. I tried to post this on their Message Wall, but they haven't responded.

 

[Second22]

I don't know what to do next since CGMS hasn't expressed any disagreement or agreement on this matter. I don't want to bother them too much, so I'll just let this thread go.

 

[Fikriskps]

Well well we need people opinion so CGM can take a conclution on the thread

try to put people who Agree and disagree

 

[Second22]

Well well we need people opinion so CGM can take a conclution on the thread

try to put people who Agree and disagree

Thank you for the advice. I will summarize the various topics and list the people who agree and disagree later.

 

[Shiroyashaaa]

flaws:

• Amazawa Isnt Moving 1Meters With 34.3m/s same time as ayanokoji Traveling 5meter to reach her, This Make Complicated about the calculation

Right, I disagree with this. This calculation doesn't assume that Ichika is moving 1 meter. All the calc mentions is the distance between Koji and Ichika and a timeframe which is 0.029 because Ichika has shown FTE feats.

I think it is valid to use 0.029 because in the speed page, it says that reaction speed is often higher than movement speed.

 

[Fikriskps]

• 
  
  Right, I disagree with this. This calculation doesn't assume that Ichika is moving 1 meter. All the calc mentions is the distance between Koji and Ichika and a timeframe which is 0.029 because Ichika has shown FTE feats.

I am speaking with 1/34.3 = 0.029s
If your thoughts are deep,
you do V= d/t in a particular case.
Look at The Calculation Its using 0.029 timeframe that came from 1/34.3 but the problem he isnt Doing something moving 1 meter with 34.3 speed to have 0.029 timeframe movement since ayano Traveling 5meter to blitz Amazawa.

you need to think it first what i saying, all the reaction timeframe came from 1/Velocity, but
But what makes the Abnitability for the application in the Ayanokoji Calculation is that Amazawa does not move 1meter with FTE velocity , it makes Calc Stacking since no statement that saying Amazawa Would Be FTE Everytimes She Moves.

so yeah we know amazawa is FTE but using (1/34.3) / 5 wouldnt be Valid Since All i say Above would make the calculation Produce high math numbers.

 

[Fikriskps]

Take a example shirohige intercept kizaru calculation, There Using Laser movement for The Timeframe.

not using 1/299792458. Even though the context is Shirohige is able to Blitz kizaru

 

[Second22]

Right, I disagree with this. This calculation doesn't assume that Ichika is moving 1 meter. All the calc mentions is the distance between Koji and Ichika and a timeframe which is 0.029 because Ichika has shown FTE feats.

Well.

Blitzing implies they can't react whatsoever... Which, yeah that's how the scene plays out but the "no way" line doesn't really imply that
1/220 is for perceiving something whatsoever via it being caught on one frame, so to speak, .029 is the reaction time you'd use here ~ DMUA

This calculation is widely accepted because it uses reaction time. However, it is not accepted because at that time, she was moving 1 meter. That's what you guys were thinking. (why wasn't I skeptical from the beginning.) So I want the opinion of both CGM members on what they think and why they accept this calc.

 

[Second22]

I think it is valid to use 0.029 because in the speed page, it says that reaction speed is often higher than movement speed.

Nah, That's not how reaction time work.
Movement speed ≠ Reaction time

 

[Second22]

If She can travel at 34.3 m/s, it does not necessarily mean that her reaction time is 1/34.3 s. Reaction time is the time it takes for us to respond to a stimulus, such as a visual or auditory cue, and it can vary from person to person and situation to situation. The speed at which we can travel is influenced by a number of factors, including the power and efficiency of our mode of transportation, the terrain, and the physical capabilities of the individual. Therefore, reaction time cannot be directly inferred from travel speed.

 

[Fikriskps]

The King Speaking, now i Go sleep

 

[Second22]

The King Speaking, now i Go sleep

Have a good night's sleep, Bro.

 

[cloudyagami]

Have we came up with any conclusions?

 

[Fikriskps]

Have we came up with any conclusions?

Lets wait for the Clasroom Supporters argument.

 

[Fikriskps]

Up

 

[DrasticallyExemplified]

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Ichika punched Horikita but Ibuki moved in and caught the punch before it connected. However, Ibuki's body appeared after the punch was thrown even though she moved in between them to block it, which means that she should have reacted and moved faster than Horikita could percieve. Not to mention, Ichika has subsonic striking speed so blocking the punch should also be subsonic speed.

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Image Screenshot-2023-03-09-193409 hosted in ImgBB

ibb.co

Ichika reacted to the punches with 0 effort despite Ibuki and Horikita simultaneously attacking her. Thus, she should have subsonic reaction time.

 

[cloudyagami]

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Ichika punched Horikita but Ibuki moved in and caught the punch before it connected. However, Ibuki's body appeared after the punch was thrown even though she moved in between them to block it, which means that she should have reacted and moved faster than Horikita could percieve. Not to mention, Ichika has subsonic striking speed so blocking the punch should also be subsonic speed.

It doesn't mention anything about not perceiving the punch in the text i think this would count towards superhuman rather than subsonic

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Image Screenshot-2023-03-09-193409 hosted in ImgBB

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Ichika reacted to the punches with 0 effort despite Ibuki and Horikita simultaneously attacking her. Thus, she should have subsonic reaction time.

This also sounds superhuman. There is another part of this fight where Ichika attacks and i think one of them said "what just happened". Thats more valid for subsonic

 

[GoldenScorpions]

I don't know what elavators you use, but if I start kicking one from the inside, it's going to shake no matter what, even without making a dent. And I sure as hell am not 9-C, let alone 9-B.
We need to be careful about statements such as "No way!" or "How is he so fast?" or "Watch out, that's fast". Usain Bolt could look at a spider walking rapidly on the ground and go "Wow, that's fast", but that obviously doesn't mean the spider is faster than him.

 

[Second22]

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Ichika punched Horikita but Ibuki moved in and caught the punch before it connected. However, Ibuki's body appeared after the punch was thrown even though she moved in between them to block it, which means that she should have reacted and moved faster than Horikita could percieve. Not to mention, Ichika has subsonic striking speed so blocking the punch should also be subsonic speed.

Screenshot-2023-03-09-193409 hosted at ImgBB

Image Screenshot-2023-03-09-193409 hosted in ImgBB

ibb.co

Ichika reacted to the punches with 0 effort despite Ibuki and Horikita simultaneously attacking her. Thus, she should have subsonic reaction time.

That means Ichika is not currently attacking with subsonic speed in that time. The context of subsonic comes from Ichika blitz both, so it's strange for Ibuki and Horikata to be subsonic like Ichika.

 

[cloudyagami]

I don't know what elavators you use, but if I start kicking one from the inside, it's going to shake no matter what, even without making a dent. And I sure as hell am not 9-C, let alone 9-B.

I agree with this although Ayanokoji has a statement during this even that could be "possibly 9-C/B" he said he can create a "small opening" big enough to free them but he wanted to refrain from using "that type of strength" to hide his abilities from Ibuki. Reference for common feats has this scaled to 17kj for steel, but its still just a statement and not an actual feat

We need to be careful about statements such as "No way!" or "How is he so fast?" or "Watch out, that's fast". Usain Bolt could look at a spider walking rapidly on the ground and go "Wow, that's fast", but that obviously doesn't mean the spider is faster than him.

Yeah this verse uses ALOT of hyperbolic statements that fans take literal and use for scaling like Housen hitting the tennis ball "at the speed of a bullet" people think thats supersonic lol or the stater gun nanase feat

 

[DrasticallyExemplified]

It doesn't mention anything about not perceiving the punch in the text i think this would count towards superhuman rather than subsonic

This also sounds superhuman. There is another part of this fight where Ichika attacks and i think one of them said "what just happened". Thats more valid for subsonic

Well, I got subsonic speed from the fact that even though Ibuki moved in between Ichika and Horikita to block the punch, Horikita only saw her body after the punch connected. This is evident when she hears the sound of the punch colliding with something else, yet she doesn't know what it is, and then Ibuki appears in front of her, even though she was already there in order to block the punch.

 

[DrasticallyExemplified]

That means Ichika is not currently attacking with subsonic speed in that time. The context of subsonic comes from Ichika blitz both, so it's strange for Ibuki and Horikata to be subsonic like Ichika.

Oh, you could scale Ichika higher, because she was on the brink of collapse in that fight, yet she is still subsonic. Also, Horikita couldn't react to the punch despite being on guard.

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[StorytellingDemonKing]

Well, I got subsonic speed from the fact that even though Ibuki moved in between Ichika and Horikita to block the punch, Horikita only saw her body after the punch connected. This is evident when she hears the sound of the punch colliding with something else, yet she doesn't know what it is, and then Ibuki appears in front of her, even though she was already there in order to block the punch.

I think she just closed her eyes reflexively, didn't feel the punch but heard the sound, opened her eyes, and saw someone in front of her. Don't think the feat is Subsonic in anyway.

 

[DrasticallyExemplified]

I agree with this although Ayanokoji has a statement during this even that could be "possibly 9-C/B" he said he can create a "small opening" big enough to free them but he wanted to refrain from using "that type of strength" to hide his abilities from Ibuki. Reference for common feats has this scaled to 17kj for steel, but its still just a statement and not an actual feat

Yeah this verse uses ALOT of hyperbolic statements that fans take literal and use for scaling like Housen hitting the tennis ball "at the speed of a bullet" people think thats supersonic lol or the stater gun nanase feat

In V4.5, Kiyo compared volleyball shots from Kanzaki and Sudo to bullets, so it's definitely a hyperbole, yeah.

I think she just closed her eyes reflexively, didn't feel the punch but heard the sound, opened her eyes, and saw someone in front of her. Don't think the feat is Subsonic in anyway.

I don't think an experienced martial artist (Horikita) would close her eyes from being startled by a punch. There was also another instance when Ichika kept her eyes open against Takuya because he was faster than the blink of an eye. Horikita talks about trying to get defend and get revenge on her in the last few sentences, so I feel like she would try to keep her eyes open against an opponent that can blitz her.

Also, Horikita and Ichika thought Ibuki left a long time ago, so she must of been out of their vision before the punch. Even if she blinked, Ibuki was able to move faster than the blink of an eye (0.1 scoends), when she was probably around 10 metres away, considering the fact that she was out of the range of Horikita's vision, since she didn't know Ibuki was even remotely close to them.

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also im editing this message because there are 69 replies lol

 

[Second22]

Oh, you could scale Ichika higher, because she was on the brink of collapse in that fight

I said in that time. Yes Ichika is meybe subsonic but not Ibuki and Horikita

Oh, you could scale Ichika higher, because she was on the brink of collapse in that fight, yet she is still subsonic. Also, Horikita couldn't react to the punch despite being on guard.

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ibb.co

I don't see any context that subsonic. IRL has a lot of fighters who can't set guards from being punched. And I don't think the guy who punch is FTE speed, since there's no clear context for blurring or not being visible.

 

[DrasticallyExemplified]

I said in that time. Yes Ichika is meybe subsonic but not Ibuki and Horikita

I don't see any context that subsonic. IRL has a lot of fighters who can't set guards from being punched. And I don't think the guy who punch is FTE speed, since there's no clear context for blurring or not being visible.

The reason why I think the punch was subsonic was because it contains a distinct similarity between the other times Ichika attacked Horikita at subsonic speeds. Usually, when Horikita gets blitzed, she notes the sound of the punch reaching her ear, and then feels the pain surge, which then, she realises she gets speedblitzed. In the scan where Ibuki blocks the punch, Horikita hears the sound of the punch, and then anticipates to feel pain like the other times she gets blitzed, but the pain doesn't arrive. Seeing how she relied on sound and pain to know if she was punched clearly shows that she was blitzed like all the other times.

In addition, as I have said before, Ibuki appeared in front of Horikita which is already subsonic. We know she was already there because she caught the punch, and then we can tell that Horikita couldn't perceive her movements as she only just appeared in front of her eyes, even though she was already there.

I think she just closed her eyes reflexively, didn't feel the punch but heard the sound, opened her eyes, and saw someone in front of her. Don't think the feat is Subsonic in anyway.

Blinking - on average, usually occurs in a tenth of a second. https://sciencing.com/dangers-sun-glare-snow-16444.html

Since they were fighting in an open space, for Ibuki to move and block the punch in the blink of an eye, would require her to move at least 3.43 metres in 0.1 seconds, which is, subsonic speed. Horikita didn't know she was there before, and even thought Ibuki had left, so Ibuki was not in the field they were fighting in before Horikita blinked. Therefore, even if it Horikita closed her eyes to blink reflexively, Ibuki would still be subsonic.

Thus, Ichika should get subsonic reaction speed, and possibly even higher considering how easily she dodged both Ibuki and Horikita's attacks, as well as the terrible condition she was fighting in.

 

[Second22]

The reason why I think the punch was subsonic was because it contains a distinct similarity between the other times Ichika attacked Horikita at subsonic speeds. Usually, when Horikita gets blitzed, she notes the sound of the punch reaching her ear, and then feels the pain surge, which then, she realises she gets speedblitzed. In the scan where Ibuki blocks the punch, Horikita hears the sound of the punch, and then anticipates to feel pain like the other times she gets blitzed, but the pain doesn't arrive. Seeing how she relied on sound and pain to know if she was punched clearly shows that she was blitzed like all the other times.

In addition, as I have said before, Ibuki appeared in front of Horikita which is already subsonic. We know she was already there because she caught the punch, and then we can tell that Horikita couldn't perceive her movements as she only just appeared in front of her eyes, even though she was already there.

Horikita wasn't blitzed, she could still see Amasawa running towards her. She had time to think whether to defend or evade, but neither of these options worked for some reason. It could be due to her fighting skills or perhaps her strength. If Amasawa was subsonic at that time, she truly didn't have time to think about these things.

 

[DrasticallyExemplified]

I never said that Ichika was moving towards Horikita at subsonic speeds. At the time, Ichika was toying with her and wanted Horikita to feel helpless and confused before hitting her again. My argument was that the punch was at subsonic attack speed, because whenever Horiktia gets blitzed by a subsonic punch, she cannot perceive it - so in order to know if she got punched, she tells by the sound of the punch, and then by the pain afterwards. She did the same thing here, only to realise that there was no pain, and that Ibuki had moved in front of her (at subsonic speed) to block the punch.

Horikita has fought on equal footing to Ibuki (in fact they are rivals) so I assume that they are both subsonic, and Ichika is at a higher level of speed than them, fast enough to blitz them individually, but is still probably subsonic. And Ichika was able to dodge hits from both Horikita and Ibuki at the same time, while they were rushing her with attacks at full speed, all while she was on the brink of collapse. That deserves at least subsonic reaction speed, no?

 

[Second22]

She might just be stunned and numbness of the punch. Therefore, she was not in a normal state to see that she had reaction time as an ordinary person back then. And again, I still don't see any part of the context as biltz. The fact that a person has been constantly punched and unable to respond That doesn't mean it's biltz. That's not just about speed. But it can be assumed that she is more powerful. which doesn't have to be biltz.

 

[Doggo]

Reread the scene, it is clearly a blitzed

 

[DrasticallyExemplified]

She might just be stunned and numbness of the punch. Therefore, she was not in a normal state to see that she had reaction time as an ordinary person back then. And again, I still don't see any part of the context as biltz. The fact that a person has been constantly punched and unable to respond That doesn't mean it's biltz. That's not just about speed. But it can be assumed that she is more powerful. which doesn't have to be biltz.

There is no evidence of Horikita being stunned by the punch, and when she is in a bad condition, she usually states it, like when she fought Ibuki on the 1st Island Exam.

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Each time she got hit, Ichika let her lie on the ground and recover for as long as she wanted to. Ichika wasn't trying to win, but to prevent her from intervening with the White Room's plans to expel Ayanokoji. She even fought in coordination with Ibuki when they tried to 2v1 Ichika, which means that her reaction speed was still sharp.

I'll explain this again. The blitz doesn't come from the fact that she couldn't respond, but because Horikita couldn't see it at all, and she didn't even know she got punched. If she had to tell if she got punched from sound and pain alone, that means she couldn't see the punch. In addition, even though Ibuki was in front of her, she couldn't process her, which is why she just "appeared" in front of her despite have already been there, which means that she moved faster than the eye to block the punch. So the punch was faster than the eye and someone moved faster than the eye to block it. That is a both a blitz and subsonic.
If Ibuki is subsonic then Ichika gets subsonic reaction for easily dodging her attacks.

I don't think that a subsonic character having subsonic reactions is that odd.

 

[Second22]

Ummm, if that was the case it would be fine for me. But I'll wait for other member's opinions. I'm still not sure if that context can be used as an FTE punch.

 

[1st_Virtue_of_Pure_Void]

I Agree

 

[DrasticallyExemplified]

Oh right, I forgot to say this but I agree with the AP downgrade. You can't measure the size of the dent because they don't talk about how big it is. For some reason though, the anime didn't adapt the volume that the feat happened in and the manga didn't adapt it either.