Clarifications on Bayonetta’s ratings

[DarkGrath]

Take note of the usage of “countless fractions”, and “unify the realm of chaos — into a single reality”. This is, verbatim, the exact synopsis Rodin supposed Singularity was doing. Note, again, the word “unify” (統合) is there.

Singularity has explicitly stated to become one with the Chaotic Energy of the multiverse, which would objectively puts his HDE at only a 4-D level. Singularity Chaos, again, explicitly absorbed the energy from the parallel universes of the multiverse, which brings his attack power to the limit. It mentions he’s swollen due to the power of the World of Chaos, which, again, is synonymously used, unless you’re asserting Singularity is gaining two sources of power. The Realm of Chaos was split into countless fractions -> The Chaos World is a multi-layered structure, with countless universes -> Singularity seeks to unify the Realm of Chaos -> Rodin says correcting the multiverse by unifying them. Singularity Chaos is amped by the Chaos Energy of the Multiverse -> Singularity Definition became one with the Chaotic Energy of the Multiverse. By the transitive property, The Realm of Chaos = The Multiverse.

Note, both Singularity Chaos & Definition claim they only got power from the parallel worlds, at no time is it ever stated that they were even further amplified by Ginunungagap. If Ginnungagap truly was part of Chaos, why waste your time destroying & absorbing literally infinitesimally smaller portions of power, instead of the infinitely bigger one, then nuking the Trinity over all? It doesn’t make sense to assume it, in any context. Why isn’t it ever stated that he got Chaotic energy from Ginnungagap? It’s because he didn’t.

I would like to clarify what exactly this all means.

Are you suggesting that, because Singularity reaches their "perfect form" due to merging with the "energy of the multiverse", with the multiverse being a 4-D structure, that Singularity could therefore not be equal to or superior than a 5-D structure? In other words, are you suggesting that this scan is an anti-feat that calls potential Low 1-C feats into question?

I am going to go play the superior game (metal gear rising: revengeance)

I'll need a APA7 formatted imgur link to confirm this.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

Are you suggesting that, because Singularity reaches their "perfect form" due to merging with the "energy of the multiverse", with the multiverse being a 4-D structure, that Singularity could therefore not be equal to or superior than a 5-D structure?

Sorta kinda? His body is 4-D, his attack potency is 4-D, and him destroying the multiverse would be 5-D via environmental destruction.

In other words, are you suggesting that this scan is an anti-feat that calls potential Low 1-C feats into question?

Kinda, yeah, assuming that they think the Trinity of Realities is Low 1-C, which I do not. They would only be 2-A physically, and Low 1-C by environmental destruction.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

"It's been two years and eight months since I came to this place with the others, but today our island of Thule has finally fulfilled its purpose. At last, we've gained control of the singularity. The fluctuations created by the rotation of five years interacts with a dimensional distortion, opening the entrance the Ginnungagap, the abyss between worlds. What's more, by adjusting the fluctuations, we've gained the ability to choose a destination world, a feat that's never been done before. The device that we developed in concert with the Umbra is perfect. As long as we walk together, we have nothing to fear. There were many hardships, and many sacrifices, but we will continue to walk along, unravelling the mysteries of the World of Chaos and seeing that their sacrifices were not in vain. A glorious future is within our grasp!"

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Kinda, yeah, assuming that they think the Trinity of Realities is Low 1-C, which I do not. They would only be 2-A physically, and Low 1-C by environmental destruction.

Imma be real with you Milly, if this is really what youre making your argument then at this point youre the one who needs to prove that Ginnungagap is outside of Chaos, because youre the only one claiming that the bayonetta cosmology is structured this way.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

Imma be real with you Milly, if this is really what youre making your argument then at this point youre the one who needs to prove that Ginnungagap is outside of Chaos

I did. That’s sorta what I’ve been doing for some time now.

 

[Abu2411]

I don’t understand. How is him fighting the other Bayonetta’s evidence that he’s on that level? He only affected it due to the other erased universes, so, again, I have no reason to assume he could naturally do that.

Because the other Bayonettas have fought and defeated Juby and Aesir. This, coupled with the statement heavily implies Singularity has that level of power. Him only destroying ginnun due to a chain reaction doesn't prove anything one way or another, since he wasn't focusing on that.

Can you get me a statement that says World of Chaos, that definitively includes Ginunungagap?

Well when you're referring to the structure as a whole (World of Chaos), that would naturally include its components that make it up; the substructure (Multiverse) and superstructure (Ginnungagap). Also, ginnun in particular not only encompasses, but exists in the space between the worlds of the multiverse, which is why it's called the Chaotic Rift.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

Because the other Bayonettas have fought and defeated Juby and Aesir. This, coupled with the statement heavily implies Singularity has that level of power. Him only destroying ginnun due to a chain reaction doesn't prove anything one way or another, since he wasn't focusing on that.

Again, this premise only works if Chaos itself is 5-D.

Well when you're referring to the structure as a whole (World of Chaos), that would naturally include its components that make it up; the substructure (Multiverse) and superstructure (Ginnungagap). Also, ginnun in particular not only encompasses, but exists in the space between the worlds of the multiverse, which is why it's called the Chaotic Rift.

Encompassing and existing in the space mean the same thing. Also, why does it being called that definitively prove that? The Chaotic Abyss archive in the video link, again, only refers to the World of Chaos as the Multiverse, as he’s investigating why it was cracked into countless parallel worlds. I don’t see why it would be treated as synonymous.

 

[ZXareo]

Because the other Bayonettas have fought and defeated Juby and Aesir. This, coupled with the statement heavily implies Singularity has that level of power. Him only destroying ginnun due to a chain reaction doesn't prove anything one way or another, since he wasn't focusing on that.

Well when you're referring to the structure as a whole (World of Chaos), that would naturally include its components that make it up; the substructure (Multiverse) and superstructure (Ginnungagap). Also, ginnun in particular not only encompasses, but exists in the space between the worlds of the multiverse, which is why it's called the Chaotic Rift.

The World of Chaos IS the Multiverse. Chaos is the entire thing.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

I did. That’s sorta what I’ve been doing for some time now.

Providing scans for it i mean. At this poin you havent provided any evidence that Ginnungagap extends beyond Chaos

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Encompassing and existing in the space mean the same thing. Also, why does it being called that definitively prove that? The Chaotic Abyss archive in the video link, again, only refers to the World of Chaos as the Multiverse, as he’s investigating why it was cracked into countless parallel worlds. I don’t see why it would be treated as synonymous.

The World of Chaos is the multiverse, the Ginnungagap is the space between worlds in the multiverse.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

The World of Chaos IS the Multiverse. Chaos is the entire thing.

Okay, well, all the scans seem to suggest that he got his power from the world of chaos, never just “chaos”. And the “Chaos World” is what’s made of countless universes.

The World of Chaos is the multiverse, the Ginnungagap is the space between worlds in the multiverse.

Aware.

Providing scans for it i mean. At this poin you havent provided any evidence that Ginnungagap extends beyond Chaos

The fact that it needs portals to get to. If it didn’t, you could just walk, I suppose. That, and again, a higher-dimensional structure is infinitely bigger than a lower-one.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

I would like to clarify what exactly this all means.

Are you suggesting that, because Singularity reaches their "perfect form" due to merging with the "energy of the multiverse", with the multiverse being a 4-D structure, that Singularity could therefore not be equal to or superior than a 5-D structure? In other words, are you suggesting that this scan is an anti-feat that calls potential Low 1-C feats into question?

Problem with that train of logic is that he fought three people who had beaten opponents that can destroy the 5-D structure

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Okay, well, all the scans seem to suggest that he got his power from the world of chaos, never just “chaos”. And the “Chaos World” is what’s made of countless universes.

Aware.

Then why is this thread still going on if youre aware of this??

The fact that it needs portals to get to. If it didn’t, you could just walk, I suppose.

Explain how this **** this has any relevance to anything in this discussion. Bayonetta needs portals to get to other universes and realms in Chaos, does that mean that those universes are also somehow outside of Chaos?

That, and again, a higher-dimensional structure is infinitely bigger than a lower-one.

its quite literally stated to be infinitely larger in-game

 

[ZXareo]

Okay, well, all the scans seem to suggest that he got his power from the world of chaos, never just “chaos”. And the “Chaos World” is what’s made of countless universes.


Aware.


The fact that it needs portals to get to. If it didn’t, you could just walk, I suppose. That, and again, a higher-dimensional structure is infinitely bigger than a lower-one.

No, I agree that Singularity only absorbed the chaotic energy of the multiverse. I've kept saying that Singularity's HDE would only be 4D, not above. I'm just correcting the definitions of what Chaos and the WoC are.

 

[Abu2411]

Encompassing and existing in the space mean the same thing. Also, why does it being called that definitively prove that? The Chaotic Abyss archive in the video link, again, only refers to the World of Chaos as the Multiverse, as he’s investigating why it was cracked into countless parallel worlds. I don’t see why it would be treated as synonymous.

Ginnungagap also being called the Chaotic Rift just highlights how it's still a part of Chaos. I would find it weird if the name didn't at least allude to that.

The World of Chaos IS the Multiverse. Chaos is the entire thing.

I see.

 

[Comicgyal]

Not sure why needing a portal to access Ginnungagap matters really, also, asking why Singularity did not outright destroy Ginnungagap and nuke the trinity is ignoring the entire context of his invasion.

It’s specifically said that Singularity has two goals.

• The Destruction of every Universe, to therefore make his native Universe (The Alphaverse) the only one.

In the course of analyzing the Multiverse, he also discovered the existence of a hostile faction bent on erasing all other worlds of the Multiverse but their own. - Midmyers Sigurd

• Gaining the power of the Arch-Eve Origin, who is Bayonetta

And now, to gain the power of Bayonetta, whom he calls “Arch-Eve Origin” and sees as a symbol of the World of Chaos itself, he has begun murdering Bayonettas counterparts on multiple parallel worlds.

So asking why he didn’t just destroy Ginnungagap, and destroy the trinity, shows a fundament lack of knowledge of the basic plot. Destroying the Trinity is not his goal, it is merely a byproduct of absorbing that much power from the World of Chaos. What’s even more interesting, is that singularity knows Ginnungagap exists, and he knows it’s a higher dimensional place. Viola herself says that he uncovered the secrets of the multiverse before anyone else. So the fact that he considers Bayonettas power the main goal, or rather needs to absorb every universe, which subsequently meant he had to effect Ginnungagap, only to be capable of contesting her is very telling.

Also, as my friends mentioned above, this does not affect any other god tier character. This reply will also serve as a response to

That's not my contention. I don't have an issue with saying Singularity is the strongest villain. I just don't know what feats the other villains have, or why they would be Low 1-C.

The trinity of realities was originally one entire universe, but due to an unforeseen conflict, it was split into three. Paradiso, Inferno, and Chaos.

The person who sat at the apex of creation, when all of these realities were one, is Jubileus.

“After the ancient First Armageddon, Jubileus was cast down from the apex of the realms. She landed in Paradiso, controller of the light in the Trinity of Realities, and fell into a deep slumber. Thus began the neverending clash for supremacy between the forces of light and dark; the return of Jubileus would not only unify the Trinity of Realities, but also bring salvation to people who have spent centuries praying for it.”

So, here is our basis. Before Chaos itself was a thing, they all existed as one. Only after they were split, was the realm of Chaos born as we know it today, along with the space of Ginnungagap which encompasses its multiverse.

Of the three realms that were divided at the dawn of time, the realm in-between ― of Chaos ― is controlled by Aesir. With the power of the "Overseer of History", Aesir lived in a dimension completely different from ours, from where he observed endless possibilities that overlapped to form history from a viewpoint beyond all time and space.

Here, Chaos is acknowledged as the entire structure, which means everything that’s ever included in its universe. Ginnungagap, which is called the “Chaotic rift” is part of this.

Now that I’ve established that Ginnungagap is part of chaos, and that Chaos is part of the original structure, let’s go into the other god tier feats.

After gaining the left eye of the world, a supreme power source, and being resurrected from her slumber, Jubileus is called the supreme ruler of all realities:

Named after the Norse god of light, Balder had a promising future as a Sage, until he broke the tenets of his clan by consorting an Umbran Witch and fathering her child — all part of a scheme to obtain the Eyes of the World, the overseers of history that had previously been split between the clans of light and dark.

After 500 years gathering faith from his followers, Balder's ambitions have reached their climax: Balder, the Last Sage, and Bayonetta, his half-blood witch daughter, are to become the Eyes of the World and herald the Second Coming of Jubileus, supreme ruler of the Realities of Light, Darkness, and Chaos.

As a result of her resurrection, Jubileus was going to merge the Trinity back into a single unified existence. This means that everything which came from its original structure, and everything that currently exists, would be merged back into one. This would mean Ginnungagap too, as an extension of the World of Chaos, that only exists BECAUSE of Jubileus, would be merged.

Kamiya says it here, that when Jubileus was recreating reality, the space you were fighting in, represents the origin of their universe. Further proof that jubileus created it all. If Ginnungagap is the paper, Jubileus is the textile mill or something idk.

Also why do all the other worlds scale to 5D? Because they’re all balanced with each other. Ginnungagap as an extension of the World of Chaos is included in this balance, especially since it’s a realm within the entire trinity as a whole.

It's a pleasant feeling when everything is in balance.

Our world is also based on such a balance.

The three worlds that make up this world are Light, Darkness, and Chaos. While they overlap with each other, they also balance each other out, and have maintained the structure of the trinity for a long time.

However, these worlds were once one but have split apart, and if any one of them were to have too much power, the equilibrium between them would immediately collapse, causing chaos in all the worlds.

Since these worlds were created they were balanced with one another, possessing equal power. It’s true that Chaos is now weakened in Bayonetta 3, but they were all once balanced.

So to reiterate, Singularity’s goal wasn’t to just destroy the Trinity, but gain the power of Bayonetta, which is regarded as something even more potent than just absorbing Ginnungagap.

Ginnungagap is part of the trinity’s overall structure, specifically the Chaos world.

These three worlds all come from one origin, and the other god tiers had attempted, and are said to be able to merge them back into one.

All realms were once balanced, but now Chaos is considered weaker. Despite this, since they were balanced previously, they are all 5-D.

 

[Comicgyal]

Here’s another scan for relevance.


Anyways, all three realities being one, and then being merged back into one existence has been the plot since the first game. Ginnungagap is never made exception as a realm outside of the entire Trinity’s structure (Impossible, because the trinity is what their cosmology is founded upon) But it is always used in conjunction with the World of Chaos. To assert, that Ginnungagap is not part of Chaos, despite being called the Chaotic rift is almost nonsensical. And to imply that it would be the sole survivor of unification, that’s said to span across all realities, is even more ridiculous. At that point you’re ignoring two entire games worth of context and logic.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

Then why is this thread still going on if youre aware of this??

Because I don’t understand how what you said disproves my point?

Explain how this **** this has any relevance to anything in this discussion. Bayonetta needs portals to get to other universes and realms in Chaos, does that mean that those universes are also somehow outside of Chaos?

No, that’s a bit of a disingenuous way to interpret my statement, since other universes (in the world of chaos), are well, in the world of chaos. Ginunungagap is the space that exists between the worlds, and encompasses all of them. You can’t encompass something and be part of it.

Ginnungagap also being called the Chaotic Rift just highlights how it's still a part of Chaos. I would find it weird if the name didn't at least allude to that.

I don’t see what definitively proves that.

So asking why he didn’t just destroy Ginnungagap, and destroy the trinity, shows a fundament lack of knowledge of the basic plot. Destroying the Trinity is not his goal, it is merely a byproduct of absorbing that much power from the World of Chaos. What’s even more interesting, is that singularity knows Ginnungagap exists, and he knows it’s a higher dimensional place. Viola herself says that he uncovered the secrets of the multiverse before anyone else. So the fact that he considers Bayonettas power the main goal, or rather needs to absorb every universe, which subsequently meant he had to affect Ginnungagap, only to be capable of contesting her is very telling.

This doesn’t disprove my point that he had to gain the power of the multiverse, which is stated on a multitude of occasions, in order to affect Ginnungagap. The resulting power could destroy the Trinity, sure, I don’t deny it. Also, him uncovering the secrets of the multiverse doesn’t mean he knows that Ginnungagap it’s a higher-dimensional space, I don’t see where you got that conclusion. Like I said, why is not stated anywhere that he gained chaotic energy from erasing Ginunungagap? No one has managed to answer this question, despite me asking it upwards of three times by this point.

Anyways, all three realities being one, and then being merged back into one existence has been the plot since the first game. Ginnungagap is never made exception as a realm outside of the entire Trinity’s structure (Impossible, because the trinity is what their cosmology is founded upon) But it is always used in conjunction with the World of Chaos. To assert, that Ginnungagap is not part of Chaos, despite being called the Chaotic rift is almost nonsensical. And to deny that it would be the sole survivor of unification, that’s said to span across all realities, is even more ridiculous. At that point you’re ignoring two entire games worth of context and logic.

This logic doesn’t hold up because Ginunungagap was a concept that was only ever spoke of in the third game. So, Chaos, at the time of that statement, was what? One universe? Two, due to the displacement of the child Bayonetta in another time? Also, the Trinity being one realty, then three, then only Ginnungagap surrounding chaos (as it’s stated) is what’s important, because it’s never said that some other world existed that surrounded the Trinity when it was first a single universe. So, the lore across games just doesn’t even seem to completely coalesce.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

Going to take a break now, been at this since 7, and while it is indeed fun, I do be tired. Don’t close this thread, by the way, as I do intend to respond to whatever comes next.

 

[Abu2411]

I don’t see what definitively proves that.

I never said it definitively proves, rather I just think it to be an apt implication.

 

[Comicgyal]

Because I don’t understand how what you said disproves my point?


No, that’s a bit of a disingenuous way to interpret my statement, since other universes (in the world of chaos), are well, in the world of chaos. Ginunungagap is the space that exists between the worlds, and encompasses all of them. You can’t encompass something and be part of it.


I don’t see what definitively proves that.


This doesn’t disprove my point that he had to gain the power of the multiverse, which is stated on a multitude of occasions, in order to affect Ginnungagap. The resulting power could destroy the Trinity, sure, I don’t deny it. Also, him uncovering the secrets of the multiverse doesn’t mean he knows that Ginnungagap it’s a higher-dimensional space, I don’t see where you got that conclusion. Like I said, why is not stated anywhere that he gained chaotic energy from erasing Ginunungagap? No one has managed to answer this question, despite me asking it upwards of three times by this point.

It does, actually. Ginnungagap was used even by scientists as means of inter dimensional travel, and even they acknowledge it as an abyss between worlds.

Gear operation stability confirmed. The 57th dimensional transfer test is also a success! Another success... but no matter how often I come here, I never quite get used to it.

Although we keep the gate open, it always seems miraculous that I'm able to return back home from this abyss. Not that I don't have faith in the device, but I would be lying if I said there wasn't a degree of anxiety. After all, I'm going on trips by myself to search for something that not even the Eyes could find. It would be stranger if I weren't anxious. But this is no time for complaints. Every moment counts.

This doesn’t disprove my point that he had to gain the power of the multiverse, which is stated on a multitude of occasions, in order to affect Ginnungagap. The resulting power could destroy the Trinity, sure, I don’t deny it.

This is just your own misinterpretation, and is not founded on actual fact from the series. He did not need to destroy ever universe to affect Ginnungagap, infact, the AlphaVerse still existed despite Ginnun being erased. So saying it’s some sort of environmental-domino is headcanon. Singularity erased Ginnun when he wanted to, just like how he erased the AlphaVerse when he was done using it. He doesn’t need to be present in the universe to erase it, that’s even stated in the lore itself.

But due to the difficulties of parallel world travel for advanced life forms bedsides himself, his invasion forces are composed chiefly of the lowest tier of Hommunci, the Stratus

This is important, because there are always Hommunculi battles in Ginnun, even when the game starts. Which means he’s been holding an invasion on it since the very beginning, while simultaneously affecting infinite other worlds, so he is attacking it directly. Please, do not include your own headcanons when the story makes itself very clear.

Because I don’t understand how what you said disproves my point?


No, that’s a bit of a disingenuous way to interpret my statement, since other universes (in the world of chaos), are well, in the world of chaos. Ginunungagap is the space that exists between the worlds, and encompasses all of them. You can’t encompass something and be part of it.


I don’t see what definitively proves that.


This doesn’t disprove my point that he had to gain the power of the multiverse, which is stated on a multitude of occasions, in order to affect Ginnungagap. The resulting power could destroy the Trinity, sure, I don’t deny it. Also, him uncovering the secrets of the multiverse doesn’t mean he knows that Ginnungagap it’s a higher-dimensional space, I don’t see where you got that conclusion. Like I said, why is not stated anywhere that he gained chaotic energy from erasing Ginunungagap? No one has managed to answer this question, despite me asking it upwards of three times by this point.


This logic doesn’t hold up because Ginunungagap was a concept that was only ever spoke of in the third game. So, Chaos, at the time of that statement, was what? One universe? Two, due to the displacement of the child Bayonetta in another time? Also, the Trinity being one realty, then three, then only Ginnungagap surrounding chaos (as it’s stated) is what’s important, because it’s never said that some other world existed that surrounded the Trinity when it was first a single universe. So, the lore across games just doesn’t even seem to completely coalesce.

You proved my point exactly. Since it was stated before that no other realm surrounded the Trinity when it was one, but it became something that surrounds the multiverse after Chaos was formed means it is a space that is excluded to encompassing Chaos and no other. Simultaneously, due to its existence in the trinity period, it too would be merged.

 

[Comicgyal]

Ultimately, I’m surprised three(?) staff members gave their agreements without first seeing counter arguments. I do hope they will stay to re-assess.

 

[DarkGrath]

Anyways, all three realities being one, and then being merged back into one existence has been the plot since the first game. Ginnungagap is never made exception as a realm outside of the entire Trinity’s structure (Impossible, because the trinity is what their cosmology is founded upon) But it is always used in conjunction with the World of Chaos. To assert, that Ginnungagap is not part of Chaos, despite being called the Chaotic rift is almost nonsensical. And to imply that it would be the sole survivor of unification, that’s said to span across all realities, is even more ridiculous. At that point you’re ignoring two entire games worth of context and logic.

You've made a well-structured argument which explains the key concepts well and with relevant statements attached. I appreciate it - it's much easier to understand the cosmology as a result.

That being said, I do have a couple of questions resulting from this. The Trinity was originally one cohesive universe, correct? Presumably infinite in size, if the individual components of the Trinity also are. This singular universe was then split off into three separated universes - Paradiso (the realm of light), Inferno (the realm of darkness), and Chaos (the realm of humans). All three of these universes exist in a balance, presumably meaning they are equal in size, power, and whatnot. Your argument predicates that because Ginunungagap is a part of Chaos, and that it is impossible for something to be outside of the Trinity's structure, that the merging of the Trinity would have to be a Low 1-C feat due to affecting all of a 5-D structure.

There is a big concern I have with this; namely, if this is how the Trinity works and was created, how is it 5-D in the first place? Reality started off as one universe, and was split off into 3 universes. The Trinity, made up of 3 universes, makes up the entirety of reality with nothing existing outside of it - if this is the case, how does this cosmology translate to anything higher than 4-D? This cosmology is just described as 3 distinct space-times, and because of the "balance", none of them are qualitatively superior in a way that would equate to a 5-D structure. How does 3 equal space-times with nothing in between make for a 5-D structure?

I also have been trying to investigate the cosmology myself in keeping up with this thread, and there is a particular aspect of the cosmology that I'm surprised hasn't been brought up in passing yet - namely, Purgatorio. Bayonetta's own wiki refers to Purgatorio as "not being a member of the Trinity", which would seem to contradict the claim that something cannot exist outside of the Trinity. Of course, we all know wikis can be unreliable (as people making and partaking in content revision threads, I'd hope we know that), so I'd like clarification on this point.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

No, that’s a bit of a disingenuous way to interpret my statement, since other universes (in the world of chaos), are well, in the world of chaos. Ginunungagap is the space that exists between the worlds, and encompasses all of them. You can’t encompass something and be part of it.

You can though? Chaos is made up of two parts, Ginnungagap and the Human Worlds. Ginnungagap encompasses the Human Worlds. Its not hard to understand.

 

[ImmortalDread]

You can though?

No, you can't. We are still within the framework of cosmological structures, which is still bounded by our classic logic.

• A proposition and its negation cannot both be true simultaneously.

“Encompassing something” and “being part of it" are seen as contradictory states.

Although, there are situations where an entity can be both encompassing something and being part of it.
One such example is set theory, where sets can contain other sets as elements.

Tho, this is irrelevant currently.

 

[Comicgyal]

I also have been trying to investigate the cosmology myself in keeping up with this thread, and there is a particular aspect of the cosmology that I'm surprised hasn't been brought up in passing yet - namely, Purgatorio. Bayonetta's own wiki refers to Purgatorio as "not being a member of the Trinity", which would seem to contradict the claim that something cannot exist outside of the Trinity. Of course, we all know wikis can be unreliable (as people making and partaking in content revision threads, I'd hope we know that), so I'd like clarification on this point.

I’d love to answer, as these concerns are fairly simple. To begin with, Purgatorio is not a member of the Trinity in a conventional sense. Tri meaning three, which of course can only refer to three realities. However, Purgatorio is still regarded as part of the Trinity overall. The trinity consists of more than just the main three worlds, Muspelheim exists as well. Despite them not being classified as the “Trinity” they still exist under the umbrella those three realms cast over the cosmology. To show, Purgatorio is called the Center of the Trinity. Still including it in the total Trinity’s cosmological structure.

PURGATORIO: THE CENTER OF THE TRINITY

The local religion of Vigrid has a rather unique aspect: its followers believe that the world is actually made of three unique realms, layered on top of each other. That is called the Trinity of Realities: Paradiso; the human world; and Inferno.

Each realm in the Trinity has a different wavelength of Spirit Energy. As a result, the inhabitants of each are incapable of interfering with the other's affairs. However, it is said that the Umbra Witches and Lumen Sages had the unique power to travel across the Trinity through a unique realm named Purgatorio. It is believed that the witches and the sages made pacts with dwellers of Inferno and Paradiso, respectively, and could use magical powers granted to them by their pact-partners.

During the Witch Hunts, it appears women suspected of being witches were sent off to Purgatorio — which the people excused as being "spirited away" — and their presence in Purgatorio was used to justify further acts of persecution.

To further elaborate: those within Purgatorio cannot see or touch those in the human world, and humans in their own world cannot intervene in the affairs of Purgatorio.

Furthermore: a material object might not have the same appearance in all three realities, but destroying an object in one realm will destroy it in all three. This might clarify recurring incidents of unexplained destruction in people's everyday lives, and why they place religious interpretations into them.

You've made a well-structured argument which explains the key concepts well and with relevant statements attached. I appreciate it - it's much easier to understand the cosmology as a result.

That being said, I do have a couple of questions resulting from this. The Trinity was originally one cohesive universe, correct? Presumably infinite in size, if the individual components of the Trinity also are. This singular universe was then split off into three separated universes - Paradiso (the realm of light), Inferno (the realm of darkness), and Chaos (the realm of humans). All three of these universes exist in a balance, presumably meaning they are equal in size, power, and whatnot. Your argument predicates that because Ginunungagap is a part of Chaos, and that it is impossible for something to be outside of the Trinity's structure, that the merging of the Trinity would have to be a Low 1-C feat due to affecting all of a 5-D structure.

Yes, but one thing, size is not a dictator of balance. The realms balance are based on their spiritual energy, not their size. An example of this, is that back during Bayonetta 1, Paradiso was described as being larger than the human world. Despite it being larger at that time, the realms were still balanced with one another. So size is not a factor, only spiritual energy.

There is a big concern I have with this; namely, if this is how the Trinity works and was created, how is it 5-D in the first place? Reality started off as one universe, and was split off into 3 universes. The Trinity, made up of 3 universes, makes up the entirety of reality with nothing existing outside of it - if this is the case, how does this cosmology translate to anything higher than 4-D? This cosmology is just described as 3 distinct space-times, and because of the "balance", none of them are qualitatively superior in a way that would equate to a 5-D structure. How does 3 equal space-times with nothing in between make for a 5-D structure?

This is because each universe in the trinity is described as being multilayered. This multilayered structure is what can allow for higher dimensional realms to exist, example being the 5D Ginnungagap. Because ginnun encompasses the multiverse of chaos, it is 5D, and because the Trinity is balanced, they too scale to this.

I want to note that the Chaos world is described to be in a weaker state, due to being split into countless fragments. Meanwhile, Paradiso and Inferno are “Whole” and superior to Chaos’ fractured state. I hope that I’m answering this in a way that makes sense.

While yes, their balance natively prevents them from being superior to one another, it is not impossible. Infact, balance has been broken quite a few times due to gains in power. Before, they all scaled to 4-D, but after the existence of the 5D Ginnungagap in chaos, the balance shifts to accommodate to the strongest recognizable thing in verse. Therefore allowing them all to be 5D

 

[Comicgyal]

No, you can't. We are still within the framework of cosmological structures, which is still bounded by our classic logic.

• A proposition and its negation cannot both be true simultaneously.

“Encompassing something” and “being part of it" are seen as contradictory states.

Although, there are situations where an entity can be both encompassing something and being part of it. One such example is set theory, where sets can contain other sets as elements.

We take what the game states before anything else. It is stated that Ginnungagap not only encompasses, but exists between worlds. Even if under normal conditions this is not possible, if the game says it is, then it is.

 

[ImmortalDread]

May I see the statement? Also, it is from Norse mythology, correct?

 

[Comicgyal]

We take what the game states before anything else. It is stated that Ginnungagap not only encompasses, but exists between worlds. Even if under normal conditions this is not possible, if the game says it is, then it is.

I say this, because previously we ran into an issue. Paradiso was said to be 1000x larger than an infinite multiverse, not normally possible. However, Ultima says that if the game says that’s the quality it has, even if it makes no sense to us, we must abide by it.

 

[Comicgyal]

May I see the statement? Also, it is from Norse mythology, correct?

No. Bayonettas cosmology does not follow Norse mythology.

Also;

At last, we've gained control of the singularity. The fluctuations created by the rotation of five years interacts with a dimensional distortion, opening the entrance the Ginnungagap, the abyss between worlds. What's more, by adjusting the fluctuations, we've gained the ability to choose a destination world, a feat that's never been done before. The device that we developed in concert with the Umbra is perfect.

 

[DarkGrath]

We take what the game states before anything else. It is stated that Ginnungagap not only encompasses, but exists between worlds. Even if under normal conditions this is not possible, if the game says it is, then it is.

Issues with fundamental logic can't be bypassed with "that's just what the verse says", especially in a circumstance like this. If we argue on the basis of Ginnungagap being a segment of Chaos, and we also argue on the basis of it being a segment of Chaos, we've created a recursive loop.

"Chaos is at least 4-D. Ginnungagap encompasses Chaos, therefore it is at least 5-D. Ginnungagap is a part of Chaos, therefore Chaos is at least 5-D." - we've stopped here, but this recursive loop can be extended infinitely. "Chaos is at least 5-D, Ginnungagap encompasses Chaos, therefore Ginnungagap is at least 6-D. Ginnungagap is a part of Chaos, therefore Chaos is at least 6-D. Ginnungagap encompasses Chaos, therefore Ginnungagap is at least 7-D...". Do you see the issue?

This isn't a sign to throw in the towel. But there is a huge issue here that cannot be brushed over. This argument is predicated on Ginnungagap both being a part of Chaos, and also the space encompassing it. If either of those are untrue, the argument for the Trinity being 5-D doesn't stick. But if these are both true, then how? It's a fundamental contradiction - we're arguing that a set contains itself.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

But if these are both true, then how? It's a fundamental contradiction - we're arguing that a set contains itself.

high 1-A infinite recursion

 

[Comicgyal]

Issues with fundamental logic can't be bypassed with "that's just what the verse says", especially in a circumstance like this. If we argue on the basis of Ginnungagap being a segment of Chaos, and we also argue on the basis of it being a segment of Chaos, we've created a recursive loop.

"Chaos is at least 4-D. Ginnungagap encompasses Chaos, therefore it is at least 5-D. Ginnungagap is a part of Chaos, therefore Chaos is at least 5-D." - we've stopped here, but this recursive loop can be extended infinitely. "Chaos is at least 5-D, Ginnungagap encompasses Chaos, therefore Ginnungagap is at least 6-D. Ginnungagap is a part of Chaos, therefore Chaos is at least 6-D. Ginnungagap encompasses Chaos, therefore Ginnungagap is at least 7-D...". Do you see the issue?

This isn't a sign to throw in the towel. But there is a huge issue here that cannot be brushed over. This argument is predicated on Ginnungagap both being a part of Chaos, and also the space encompassing it. If either of those are untrue, the argument for the Trinity being 5-D doesn't stick. But if these are both true, then how? It's a fundamental contradiction - we're arguing that a set contains itself.

I see, it seems that we need to readdress some things. Chaos refers to the entire structure of the realm, not just the universes inside. Essentially, The World of Chaos is the Multiverse, and Chaos is everything that isn’t just the Multiverse. So, The World of Chaos is 4-D, because that’s just the multiverse. While Ginnungagap is 5-D because it encompassed it. Ginnungagap is not the multiverse, but it is under the entire structure of Chaos, therefore making the whole of Chaos 5D, that takes everything we know that exists within it into consideration.

Ginnungagap is part of Chaos in reference to the total structure, but it still encompasses and exists between the multiverse, making it 5D. Have I cleared the confusion?

 

[WeeklyBattles]

"Chaos is at least 4-D. Ginnungagap encompasses Chaos, therefore it is at least 5-D. Ginnungagap is a part of Chaos, therefore Chaos is at least 5-D." - we've stopped here, but this recursive loop can be extended infinitely. "Chaos is at least 5-D, Ginnungagap encompasses Chaos, therefore Ginnungagap is at least 6-D. Ginnungagap is a part of Chaos, therefore Chaos is at least 6-D. Ginnungagap encompasses Chaos, therefore Ginnungagap is at least 7-D...". Do you see the issue?

This isn't a sign to throw in the towel. But there is a huge issue here that cannot be brushed over. This argument is predicated on Ginnungagap both being a part of Chaos, and also the space encompassing it. If either of those are untrue, the argument for the Trinity being 5-D doesn't stick. But if these are both true, then how? It's a fundamental contradiction - we're arguing that a set contains itself.

Ah so theres where the confusion lies. To correct this misconception, Ginnungagap is part of Chaos, not the other way around. Chaos is the realm as a whole, the Worlds of Chaos are the infinite number of universes that comprise the multiverse within Chaos, and the Ginnungagap is the space between these multiverses which encompasses all of them within the realm of Chaos.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Ultimately, I’m surprised three(?) staff members gave their agreements without first seeing counter arguments. I do hope they will stay to re-assess.

They wont

 

[WeeklyBattles]

But yeah, the entire crux of this argument stems from Milly's misconception that the Ginnungagap exists beyond Chaos, which is just factually incorrect.

 

[ImmortalDread]

To make it easier (this is how I understood)

1. Chaos refers to the entire structure of the realm which includes the Multiverse
2. The World of Chaos is equivalent to the Multiverse, and Chaos encompasses everything that is not just the Multiverse.
3. The World of Chaos is described as being 4-dimensional because it is synonymous with the multiverse.
4. Ginnungagap is described as a 5-dimensional because it encompasses the multiverse and exists within it.

Anyone confirm for me if it is accurate of how I understood before I point out the inconsistencies.

 

[Comicgyal]

To make it easier (this is how I understood)

1. Chaos refers to the entire structure of the realm which includes the Multiverse
2. The World of Chaos is equivalent to the Multiverse, and Chaos encompasses everything that is not just the Multiverse.
3. The World of Chaos is described as being 4-dimensional because it is synonymous with the multiverse.
4. Ginnungagap is described as a 5-dimensional because it encompasses the multiverse and exists within it.

Confirm someone before I point out the inconsistencies.

This is somewhat accurate, allow me to tweak it.

1. Chaos refers to the entire structure of the realm, which includes the Multiverse, and Ginnungagap which encompasses it.

2. The World of Chaos refers to just the 4D Multiverse.

3. Ginnungagap is the 5D space that encompasses, and exists between the parallel worlds of the Multiverse. It is part of the overall structure of Chaos, when in reference to its full state.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

To make it easier (this is how I understood)

1. Chaos refers to the entire structure of the realm which includes the Multiverse
2. The World of Chaos is equivalent to the Multiverse, and Chaos encompasses everything that is not just the Multiverse.
3. The World of Chaos is described as being 4-dimensional because it is synonymous with the multiverse.

Chaos is the realm as a whole, comprised of the Worlds of Chaos (the infinite number of universes that make up the multiverse) and the Ginnungagap (the space that encompasses the Worlds of Chaos, existing as the space between the Worlds)

1. Ginnungagap is described as a 5-dimensional because it encompasses the multiverse and exists within it.

Confirm someone before I point out the inconsistencies.

The Ginnungagap does not exist within the Worlds of Chaos, it exists around and between them.

Put in super simple terms, its like fruit suspended in jello, the jello simultaneously encompasses the fruit while also existing between each piece of fruit.

 

[ImmortalDread]

This is somewhat accurate, allow me to tweak it.

1. Chaos refers to the entire structure of the realm, which includes the Multiverse, and Ginnungagap which encompasses it.

2. The World of Chaos refers to just the 4D Multiverse.

3. Ginnungagap is the 5D space that encompasses, and exists between the parallel worlds of the Multiverse. It is part of the overall structure of Chaos, when in reference to its full state.

This makes no sense.

The second statement introduces the World of Chaos, which is said to only include the 4D Multiverse. This contradicts the previous statement, where Chaos was defined as encompassing both the Multiverse and Ginnungagap. If Chaos refers to the entire structure, it cannot simultaneously refer to just the 4D Multiverse.

The third statement states that Ginnungagap is a 5D space that exists between the parallel worlds of the Multiverse and is part of the overall structure of Chaos. However, it does not clarify how a 5D space can exist within a 4D Multiverse.

The concept of dimensions should be consistent throughout the statements, but this introduces a potential inconsistency in the logical framework.