Clarifications on Bayonetta’s ratings

[CloverDragon03]

No he doesn’t, this has been refuted as the only tier 1 feat in the verse that’s used is Ginnungegap, something that only exists in 3 and Singularity is the only person who did it. If you don’t have anything else to add beyond repeating the same arguments weekly I’m not going to waste my time with you.

Imo it'd be best to condense the rebuttals to these other Tier 1 feats into one post so supporters can either counter the rebuttals or, if they can't do so, at least not regurgitate the same points

 

[Comicgyal]

We can talk about the other characters scaling in different ways if need be. If glass isn’t convinced by the absorption, there’s still the avenue of Ginnungagap existing in the Trinity, which other God Tiers have manipulated the totality of before.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Imo it'd be best to condense the rebuttals to these other Tier 1 feats into one post so supporters can either counter the rebuttals or, if they can't do so, at least not regurgitate the same points

Ye i can do that, gimme a few minutes, everything has already been posted here i just gotta organize it

 

[Comicgyal]

@Comicgyal that still doesn’t really tell me he absorbed the Ginnungegap in specific. I’m still unsure on this scaling fully to the characters.

How come? As I said in my post, Ginnungagap is the only realm that’s referred to as a dimension using jigen. Does that singular use not denote that they’re referring to it in particular?

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Imo it'd be best to condense the rebuttals to these other Tier 1 feats into one post so supporters can either counter the rebuttals or, if they can't do so, at least not regurgitate the same points

So, without taking absorption or EE into account:

• Jubileus and Aesir, like Queen Sheba, are the physical embodiments of the realms of Paradiso and Chaos respectively.
  • The Realm of Chaos is made up of two parts, the Worlds of Chaos/Human Worlds, which is a multiverse made up of an infinite number of universes, and the Ginnungagap, which is the space between and encompassing the World of Chaos, to the extent of being described 'as the universe is to planets'.
  • Paradiso, Inferno, and Chaos are equal in scope, with the only difference being that Paradiso and Inferno are a singular realms rather than being broken up into a multiverse, with Paradiso and Inferno being described as infinite in size compared to the Worlds of Chaos.
• Both Jubileus and Aesir possessed the power to completely destroy and recreate the Trinity of Realities (Paradiso, Inferno, and Chaos, as well as Purgatorio, the parallel realm that spans all three realms).
  • Additionally, Jubileus and Aesir were at the epicenter of the First Armageddon, the destruction of the old reality which split reality into the Trinity.
  • Bayonetta in the first game beat the crap out of Jubileus, and in the second game she beat the crap out of Aesir.
• Rodin has two additional forms, Father Rodin and Rodin the Infinite One. Father Rodin is described as being just barely below Jubileus in power, to the point that she outright considered him a thread and had him cast from Paradiso out of fear, while Rodin the Infinite One is directly stated to be the single strongest demon in Inferno, above Queen Sheba (who is Aesir and Jubileus' equal) in power.
  • Bayonetta beat both of these forms in Bayonetta 1 and 2 respectively.
• Singularity is recognized as being the most powerful villain in the series, which would by default place him above the likes of Jubileus and Aesir.
  • Singularity canonically fought and killed an infinite number of alternate universe Bayonettas, including the Bayonettas from Bayonetta 1 and 2.
  • Singularity also canonically fought Bayonetta 3 Bayonetta, who is confirmed to be the single strongest Bayonetta incarnation, as well as matching a three-way fusion of Bayonettas 1, 2, and 3.

I think i got everything, Comic can double check and bring up anything i missed, but these are all reasonings for Singularity scaling to Low 1-C even without the absorption reasoning.

 

[Asdtgh]

How come? As I said in my post, Ginnungagap is the only reason that’s referred to as a dimension using jigen. Does that singular use not denote that they’re referring to it in particular?

I'll agree with Comicgirl on this. It actually had been hinted as a dimension before in Bayonetta 2. Just need to piece the puzzles together

Still preparing my material while realising some things that align with my counter-argument. Still unchanged on 5D Bayoverse

 

[WeeklyBattles]

I'll agree with Comicgirl on this. It actually had been hinted as a dimension before in Bayonetta 2. Just need to piece the puzzles together

Still preparing my material while realising some things that align with my counter-argument. Still unchanged on 5D Bayoverse

Yeah im not sure why Ginnungagap only being shown directly in Bayonetta 3 would prevent it from being applied to he previous two games when they were still affecting the same cosmological structure.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

In the context of their universe, they acknowledge Ginnungagap as a place with properties unlike their normal universe, and evidence points to them certainly knowing of its higher dimensional properties.

For starters, they know of its existence in the first place, and are trying to find something within it that the Eyes of The World cannot locate.


Despite the eyes not being able to find this mysterious object, the fact that we know that they’re using the eyes, is how we can confirm that they knew of Ginnungagaps HD nature. After all, the eyes do give their wielders knowledge of everything, on an omniscient scale. So, I’d wager they knew what it was.




Yes, I’m well aware. The point of that, was to show that the destruction of universes, and the destruction of Ginnungagap do not inherently go hand in hand, and therefore cannot be deduced as “Environmental Destruction.” Since the AlphaVerse existed after Ginnun was destroyed, and is still something classified as a universe in the Multiverse. So destroying universes does not = destroying Ginnungagap.

Also, the relationship between the two of them is like the universe to the earth. No matter how many planets I destroy (in this case the universes in the woc) I will not destroy the Universe.




The point of that was to prove he can access Ginnungagap, and is proof that he’d been paying it mind. Since his hommunculi are in that realm, that means singularity sees it as part of his conquest, is something he is actively targeting.

It is said singularity gains power from the multiverse, chaotic energy, and the arch eves he has absorbed. Ginnun is not the multiverse, but the classification of Chaotic energy should apply to it, due it it being called the Chaotic Rift.

Also, it’s said singularity gains power from parallel dimensions, a point you decided to concede on earlier. Ginnungagap is referenced as a dimension, as I explained, so he gains power from it.



So yes, it’s stated he gains power from Ginnungagap, and all other dimensions in the cosmology of Chaos.



As explained before, the World of Chaos (The multiverse) and Ginnungagap together, both equal Chaos. So, after showing how he derives power from parallel dimensions, and the Multiverse, his power would be equal to that of the original Chaos.


For starters, the singularity being the strongest villain is only referenced to actual villains. Those being Balder and Aesir. Jubileus is not a villain, so this does not apply to her. So above all else, she can certainly be Low 1C physically, which still scales to her compatriots.

Moreover, the answer to your question is what I explained above. His absorption did not only span the multiverse, but Ginnungagap as well. There has yet to be any solid reasoning as to why Ginnungagap exists outside of the classification of the whole realm of Chaos, and even less the Trinity itself.

So, after his absorption of not only the multiverse, but also Ginnungagap, he gained enough power to affect the entire trinity.

I should note, the power to affect the Trinity originally came about from the Eyes of the World. These eyes came from Aesir, the God of the Human World, aka, Chaos.

The eyes are also the power source that was used to keep Chaos in balance with the other realms, as well as allowing Jubileus to merge all three realms. So the “Chaotic energy” that Singularity attains is much more potent than you think.

Staff can now feel free to evaluate this once more, I do encourage questions from them only from here on, (if you have any) so that any further clarifications or confusions can be addressed.

I agree with Comicgyal via this post.

 

[Asdtgh]

Yeah im not sure why Ginnungagap only being shown directly in Bayonetta 3 would prevent it from being applied to he previous two games when they were still affecting the same cosmological structure.

Sorry about this dudes, but I couldn't keep up with the thread cause I'm busy. Can I please get a rundown/summary of what everyone's stands are for Bayonetta's Tier?

Mine is Tier Low 1-C/5D, possibly higher

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Sorry about this dudes, but I couldn't keep up with the thread cause I'm busy. Can I please get a rundown/summary of what everyone's stands are for Bayonetta's Tier?

Mine is Tier Low 1-C/5D, possibly higher

No worries, shit happens. ATM its not so much an issue of deciding tiers, all thats being done in this thread is rebutting the downgrade argument, the upgrade/tiering adjustment is going to be done in another thread in a few days after this is concluded

 

[Asdtgh]

No worries, shit happens. ATM its not so much an issue of deciding tiers, all thats being done in this thread is rebutting the downgrade argument, the upgrade/tiering adjustment is going to be done in another thread in a few days after this is concluded

I mean technically, it is arguing against the current Tiering of Bayonetta anyway, which is still deciding tiers. But outside of that, I'm prepared to see what Comicgyal, you and Minaj has to say about the diamonds being higher dimensions. Cause that hypothesis is not even close to being right. No offense

 

[WeeklyBattles]

I mean technically, it is arguing against the current Tiering of Bayonetta anyway, which is still deciding tiers.

Not really...?

So, without taking absorption or EE into account:

• Jubileus and Aesir, like Queen Sheba, are the physical embodiments of the realms of Paradiso and Chaos respectively.
  • The Realm of Chaos is made up of two parts, the Worlds of Chaos/Human Worlds, which is a multiverse made up of an infinite number of universes, and the Ginnungagap, which is the space between and encompassing the World of Chaos, to the extent of being described 'as the universe is to planets'.
  • Paradiso, Inferno, and Chaos are equal in scope, with the only difference being that Paradiso and Inferno are a singular realms rather than being broken up into a multiverse, with Paradiso and Inferno being described as infinite in size compared to the Worlds of Chaos.
• Both Jubileus and Aesir possessed the power to completely destroy and recreate the Trinity of Realities (Paradiso, Inferno, and Chaos, as well as Purgatorio, the parallel realm that spans all three realms).
  • Additionally, Jubileus and Aesir were at the epicenter of the First Armageddon, the destruction of the old reality which split reality into the Trinity.
  • Bayonetta in the first game beat the crap out of Jubileus, and in the second game she beat the crap out of Aesir.
• Rodin has two additional forms, Father Rodin and Rodin the Infinite One. Father Rodin is described as being just barely below Jubileus in power, to the point that she outright considered him a thread and had him cast from Paradiso out of fear, while Rodin the Infinite One is directly stated to be the single strongest demon in Inferno, above Queen Sheba (who is Aesir and Jubileus' equal) in power.
  • Bayonetta beat both of these forms in Bayonetta 1 and 2 respectively.
• Singularity is recognized as being the most powerful villain in the series, which would by default place him above the likes of Jubileus and Aesir.
  • Singularity canonically fought and killed an infinite number of alternate universe Bayonettas, including the Bayonettas from Bayonetta 1 and 2.
  • Singularity also canonically fought Bayonetta 3 Bayonetta, who is confirmed to be the single strongest Bayonetta incarnation, as well as matching a three-way fusion of Bayonettas 1, 2, and 3.

I think i got everything, Comic can double check and bring up anything i missed, but these are all reasonings for Singularity scaling to Low 1-C even without the absorption reasoning.

Their tiering has been summed up here

 

[Asdtgh]

Not really...?

Their tiering has been summed up here

I see

• Both Jubileus and Aesir possessed the power to completely destroy and recreate the Trinity of Realities (Paradiso, Inferno, and Chaos, as well as Purgatorio, the parallel realm that spans all three realms).
  • Additionally, Jubileus and Aesir were at the epicenter of the First Armageddon, the destruction of the old reality which split reality into the Trinity.
  • Bayonetta in the first game beat the crap out of Jubileus, and in the second game she beat the crap out of Aesir.

You guys might need to clarify that the Jubileus and Aesir that Bayonetta "beat the crap out of" are still their lesser versions of themselves, not the full powered ones. Jubileus at that time only had the REoL while Bayonetta was competing her with the LEoD. Along with her using Queen Sheeba to help out at the last moment thanks to Jeanne's hair.

As for Aesir (Loptr), do remember he didn't have his other half merged as well, including Loki's Trump Card. Which, under the context as it should be, is the help Bayonetta and Baldur needed to actually stop Loptr. Along with gaining another outside help entity Omne to dropkick his soul out of his body, and Jeanne and Gomorrah to do the final blow to his physical body.

• Singularity is recognized as being the most powerful villain in the series, which would by default place him above the likes of Jubileus and Aesir.
  • Singularity canonically fought and killed an infinite number of alternate universe Bayonettas, including the Bayonettas from Bayonetta 1 and 2.
  • Singularity also canonically fought Bayonetta 3 Bayonetta, who is confirmed to be the single strongest Bayonetta incarnation, as well as matching a three-way fusion of Bayonettas 1, 2, and 3.

The scan said they design Singularity to be on par with Baldur and Aesir (Loptr), though I do still agree he is the strongest out of the adversaries Bayonetta has ever fought.

But I don't recall. Since when did Singularity killed the Bayonettas of the previous games? Last time I checked, they're all fine at the final moments of the last battle

 

[WeeklyBattles]

You guys might need to clarify that the Jubileus and Aesir that Bayonetta "beat the crap out of" are still their lesser versions of themselves, not the full powered ones. Jubileus at that time only had the REoL while Bayonetta was competing her with the LEoD. Along with her using Queen Sheeba to help out at the last moment thanks to Jeanne's hair.

Pardon? Jubileus was amped in that fight, the Eyes of the World didnt exist until after the First Armageddon when Aesir created them to oversee Chaos. Jubileus never had the Eyes to begin with, so her having the Right Eye would make her stronger than her normal self, not weaker.

As for Aesir (Loptr), do remember he didn't have his other half merged as well, including Loki's Trump Card. Which, under the context as it should be, is the help Bayonetta and Baldur needed to actually stop Loptr. Along with gaining another outside help entity Omne to dropkick his soul out of his body, and Jeanne and Gomorrah to do the final blow to his physical body.

Aesir was near his full power when Bayo fought him, he had Loki's Soverign Power on top of both Eyes of the World.

Also would like to point out that the Sheba and Omne parts dont really reflect on Bayo's power seeing as she uses demons to finish off every enemy that isnt complete fodder, even strong normal Angels.

But I don't recall. Since when did Singularity killed the Bayonettas of the previous games? Last time I checked, they're all fine at the final moments of the last battle

They were resurrected at the time Bayo 3 Bayo was fighting Balance form Singularity on the moon, along with every other Bayonetta in the multiverse.

 

[Asdtgh]

Pardon? Jubileus was amped in that fight, the Eyes of the World didnt exist until after the First Armageddon when Aesir created them to oversee Chaos. Jubileus never had the Eyes to begin with, so her having the Right Eye would make her stronger than her normal self, not weaker.

Wasn't the whole point of old Baldur making Bayonetta reawaken the LEoD to re-awaken Jubileus strength, especially considering she was sealed away?

Aesir was near his full power when Bayo fought him, he had Loki's Soverign Power on top of both Eyes of the World.

Except the original Aesir's true power, Nothingness. Loki explicitly said why he was the better half by holding onto this trump card. And Aesir (Loptr)'s description in Bayonetta 2 is referring to the original Aesir, not Loptr's impression of him.

Also would like to point out that the Sheba and Omne parts dont really reflect on Bayo's power seeing as she uses demons to finish off every enemy that isnt complete fodder, even strong normal Angels.

I mean, she still needed Baldur's help against Aesir (Loptr) and as for Jubileus, she did still have the LEoD at the time, even if or not Jubileus was amped instead of being attempted to return to full strength.

They were resurrected at the time Bayo 3 Bayo was fighting Balance form Singularity on the moon, along with every other Bayonetta in the multiverse.

I'll look back on this to confirm it then

 

[Tony_di_bugalu]

BTW why is Aesir being brought into the scaling? Loptr was beating the crap out of Bayo in everything single fight and to be defeated, Loki had to nerf his ass severely by deleting the eyes.

I know someone mentioned something about singularity being the strongest villain but how well does that hold in practice against other God Tiers? Especially when, as explained before by someone here, he couldn't even seal paradiso and inferno

Imo it doesn't hold up that well.

Also you guys only need to post whatever scan or proof you have of ginnun being part of the trinity, that pretty much settles any argument against 5D

 

[WeeklyBattles]

BTW why is Aesir being brought into the scaling? Loptr was beating the crap out of Bayo in everything single fight and to be defeated, Loki had to nerf his ass severely by deleting the eyes.

this has already been explained a dozen times over, no, Bayo did not lose to Loptr or Aesir in a straight fight, and this was even confirmed in the guidebook later on.

I know someone mentioned something about singularity being the strongest villain but how well does that hold in practice against other God Tiers? Especially when, as explained before by someone here, he couldn't even seal paradiso and inferno

Imo it doesn't hold up that well.

Irrelevant when both Bayonetta 1 and 2 Bayonetta have Low 1-C feats and he killed both of them physically.

Also you guys only need to post whatever scan or proof you have of ginnun being part of the trinity, that pretty much settles any argument against 5D

Thats already been posted half a dozen times, Comic literally reposts it in every reply she does lol

 

[Asdtgh]

this has already been explained a dozen times over, no, Bayo did not lose to Loptr or Aesir in a straight fight, and this was even confirmed in the guidebook later on.

Sure, as clearly seen here. Even though Bayonetta looked tired and worn out while Loptr calmly proclaimed her power is not great enough to even handle him. Not even able to perceive his true identity, just his blue energy silhouette.

And you forgot to mention she didn't lose to them since Loki had interrupted their fights twice. Prophet fight ended with him opening the gates to Inferno and the Aesir Loptr fight ended with him pulling out Nothingness at the last minute

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Sure, as clearly seen here. Even though Bayonetta looked tired and worn out while Loptr calmly proclaimed her power is not great enough to even handle him. Not even able to perceive his true identity, just his blue energy silhouette.

iirc it was outright confirmed that he only won that fight via mindhaxxing her

 

[Galens]

I did not know that Paradiso was infinitely larger than the WoC, until now I only knew of Irenic's claim that Paradiso is thousands of times larger than WoC
Was there another claim that WoC was infinitely greater than Paradiso?

 

[WeeklyBattles]

I did not know that Paradiso was infinitely larger than the WoC, until now I only knew of Irenic's claim that Paradiso is thousands of times larger than WoC
Was there another claim that WoC was infinitely greater than Paradiso?

WoC is the multiverse contained within Chaos, its infinitely smaller than Paradiso

 

[Asdtgh]

iirc it was outright confirmed that he only won that fight via mindhaxxing her

Even though the mind hax happened after she got ragdolled by his energy blasts? And she was panting and struggling to stand firm and strong before the flashback?

 

[Galens]

WoC is the multiverse contained within Chaos, its infinitely smaller than Paradiso

I understand, it would certainly be the logical thing to do if it were due to the dimensional difference
But ... then what about Irenic's claim that Paradiso is only thousands of times larger than the Worlds of Chaos?

 

[Asdtgh]

I understand, it would certainly be the logical thing to do if it were due to the dimensional difference
But ... then what about Irenic's claim that Paradiso is only thousands of times larger than the Worlds of Chaos?

Galens right. I was also wondering what scan put Paradiso infinitely superior than WoC in size?

Edit: I mean sure, WoC is infinite in the amount of timelines. So technically it's still Paradiso being infinite. But in comparison to WoC? I don't remember that

 

[ZXareo]

Except the original Aesir's true power, Nothingness. Loki explicitly said why he was the better half by holding onto this trump card. And Aesir (Loptr)'s description in Bayonetta 2 is referring to the original Aesir, not Loptr's impression of him

Nothingness has absolutely nothing to do with Aesir's physicals.

BTW why is Aesir being brought into the scaling? Loptr was beating the crap out of Bayo in everything single fight and to be defeated, Loki had to nerf his ass severely by deleting the eyes.

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The damage to Aesir is shown BEFORE the Eyes of the World are erased. This can mean three things:
1. Off-screen, Bayonetta mauled Aesir to the point of this much damage.
2. The damage Aesir takes is not visible (by choice or forgotten to implement).
3. Aesir's damage is only visible when the Eyes of the World are removed.

Keep in mind that Bayonetta could catch Aesir off guard and stagger him: https://youtube.com/clip/Ugkx7MUqmVx6c6dsOBYHoY4Ojn6ZgRuCwTSa , and this was without Balder. Not only was she forced into airborne combat, she also had to fight him solo, nerfed by losing the Left Eye and fighting against a full Power Aesir (-Nothingness which has no affect on Physicals).

It wasn't as much a stomp as people think. And anyways, why would it matter?

iirc it was outright confirmed that he only won that fight via mindhaxxing her

That's...odd since he kinda won the tussle already by the point that he shows her the Microsoft Powerpoint Exposition Dump.

 

[DarkGrath]

Alright. Having looked through everything presented in this thread, I believe the facts are clear and that I'm nearly ready to give a decisive verdict.

When the Trinity were one, there was nothing that existed outside of the one universe that made up reality. This universe was eventually split into three - Paradiso, Inferno, and Chaos. These realms were not of equal size, with lore stating that Paradiso and Inferno were larger than Chaos, but they created a balance via maintaining similar levels of "spiritual energy". Through an infinite number of parallel realities, the total number of worlds within each realm was infinite. In Bayonetta 3, it's established that there is a realm known as "Ginnungagap", which is also referred to as the "Chaotic Rift" that encompasses the worlds within Chaos. Going by wiki standards, it is asserted that a realm which encompasses a space-time must be at least 5 dimensional, thereby suggesting that Ginnungagap is 5 dimensional. Due to the existence of Ginnungagap within Chaos, and the statements suggesting Paradiso and Inferno are larger than Chaos, Paradiso and Inferno must also be at least 5 dimensional as a consequence. Therefore, the Trinity is made up of three 5 dimensional realms. Jublieus is stated to be capable of merging the Trinity together, reuniting them as one universe, which would require energy on a 5 dimensional scale. Therefore, Jubileus must be at least Low 1-C. Singularity is both stated to be stronger than Jubileus and characters around Jubileus' level, and has direct feats that would scale Singularity above these characters, therefore Singularity must be at least Low 1-C.

As far as I can tell, this is the cohesive (non-EE related) argument for Low 1-C Singularity by the opposition. To be honest, I'm inclined to say that I'd be okay with this being the justification provided on the profiles for Low 1-C. That being said, there are a couple of loose threads here - pedantic loose threads at that, but I dislike leaving unanswered questions by the end of a major revision. So I'm going to play the devil's advocate for a bit here and address all the questions I have that may or may not reveal important information for this cosmology.

1: While this may sound like beating a dead horse, even after everything I've read, I'm still not 100% confident that Ginnungagap is actually reserved entirely to Chaos. As far as I can tell, the biggest points of evidence for this is:

- It is stated that, when the Trinity was one, that nothing existed outside of the Trinity (on a side note, I'd like if someone could reply with the scan for this, because I've seemingly lost it and can't find it going back in the thread). Therefore, Ginnungagap could not exist outside the boundaries of the Trinity.

- Ginnungagap is referred to as the "Chaotic Rift". This phrasing implies a connection to Chaos, therefore, it is reserved to Chaos.

Neither of these wholly convince me. In regard to the former, as far as I can tell, it's not clear when exactly Ginnungagap appeared or how - it would be a big point in favour of this argument if it could be proven it existed prior to the splitting of the Trinity, but otherwise, one could easily look at this and imagine that Ginnungagap formed during or after the splitting of the Trinity. Furthermore, the existence of realms that do not strictly adhere to the Trinity's structure (such as Purgatorio, said to be in the "centre" of the Trinity and used by Umbral Witches to traverse between realms) suggests that, despite what the statements suggest, a place doesn't need to strictly be a part of any single aspect of the Trinity.

In regard to the latter, this is rather weak by itself; I don't deny that it sounds like "Chaotic Rift" is referencing the realm of Chaos, but this is just an assumption. I doubt there are zero contexts where the word "chaos" could be used outside references to the realm called Chaos. In particular, a lot of things could be called "chaotic" without being in reference to the realm of Chaos. And even if it is, does this show it possesses exclusivity to Chaos?

While I believe the inferences presented are reasonable, I can't completely rule out the possibility that Ginnungagap encompasses more than just Chaos. Particularly, there is still some possibility that it encompasses all the realms, and isn't reserved entirely to the Trinity. This connects well into another concern:

2: If Paradiso and Inferno also possess their own 5 dimensional spaces, do we have any direct references to them? I don't deny the power of deduction - if Chaos is 5 dimensional, and Paradiso and Inferno are larger than Chaos, Paradiso and Inferno can effectively be deduced to be 5 dimensional themselves. But this is a point of surprisingly major importance to the plot for there to seemingly be no references (at least, none mentioned so far) as to any kind of 5 dimensional space (or other equivalent of Ginnungagap) in Paradiso or Inferno. Our scaling and cosmology will be based on the assertion that these do exist, yet as far as I can tell, nothing of the sort has been stated, shown, or even implied in the whole Bayonetta series.

Relying on pure deduction here would be acceptable if it wasn't for my previous question - there is an instance where all the evidence presented can be correct, and Ginnungagap can still encompass more than just Chaos. If that was the case, then Paradiso and Inferno don't have to have their own 5 dimensional spaces, and this concern is rectified.

Is this all pedantic? Yes, you could say so. I don't expect most verses would be held to the scrutiny that I am holding the Bayonetta verse now. However, I do have high standards for proof in matters like these, so I want every doubt to be stifled before I can firmly cast my judgement.

@Comicgyal In particular, I'd appreciate your input here. You've provided a great deal of scans, quotes, and detailed explanations that have helped to clear up a lot of the confusion thus far in the thread. If you have the time, I'd be happy to hear what you have to say about these concerns.

 

[Asdtgh]

Nothingness has absolutely nothing to do with Aesir's physicals.

Even though the EoTW do to the point it can alter his own form and body and is a part of Aesir? You even considered that the Left Eye of Darkness does amp Bayonetta in your post. Not to mention, Loptr, right before he transformed into an impression of Aesir, said the eyes hold power. Along with the fact he knew alot about the EoTW (except Nothingness) and how he used to be a god but was separated as one half. And Loki, another half who also knows about Aesir since he is the other half (even called himself the better half and it proves), said that Aesir's real power is Nothingness, and that power can erase anything and everything from the Human World. Not an ability. Not a technique. Not some non-physical feature he had. Power.

And it's Nothingness. Just. Like. Ginnungagap. An abyss. And who else we know is "absorbing" an abyss into his physical/spiritually meta-physical form? Singularity. (I've given you guys another hint to what Ginnungagap is. And it is still never just within the Human World.)

Sure you can argue Nothingness is like "magic"/hax and the Eyes are genuinely his physical prowess. But considering that we are aware that Witch Time (Time Slow) and Light Speed (Time Stop) has an effect with the Umbra Witches and Lumen Sages' physical abilities, and that magic and spiritual power is pretty much the DBZ Ki for Bayonetta, it's still at least likely Nothingness does indeed have something to do with Aesir. And besides, it is a POWER more powerful than his eyes. And it can erase anything and everything, and the eyes themselves. A power Bayonetta 2's Bayo never went up against. As it was only an impression/mockey of the OG Aesir she fought.

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The damage to Aesir is shown BEFORE the Eyes of the World are erased. This can mean three things:
1. Off-screen, Bayonetta mauled Aesir to the point of this much damage.
2. The damage Aesir takes is not visible (by choice or forgotten to implement).
3. Aesir's damage is only visible when the Eyes of the World are removed.

Three-ish. Since it's his "clothing" that had only been damaged, just like it was for Loptr's eye wear. We start to see him really falter once the eyes were gone. And if you took note of the scenes both before this clip and afterwards, Loptr was able to resist, avoid and attack them and only after he lost those eyes, did he become a human ragdolling, punching bag with no Super Armour to resist hitstun and no attempt to dodge their attacks and hit back. And under the context of the story (That being Bayonetta "amped by the Left eye" still getting chokehold by a cocky, calm Loptr to lose her Left Eye) and what Loki did, Loki helped give them a very big fighting chance, at the risk of destroying the world, by making Loptr undefendable and weak, stumbling constantly, walking awkwardly, etc.

Keep in mind that Bayonetta could catch Aesir off guard and stagger him: https://youtube.com/clip/Ugkx7MUqmVx6c6dsOBYHoY4Ojn6ZgRuCwTSa , and this was without Balder.

Caught off guard and staggered or not, Baldr still supported her on the platform arena. Maybe until they started flying then Baldr was out of the arena, but it was help nonetheless. 2v1 isn't exactly fair, is it?

Not only was she forced into airborne combat

So did Aesir (Loptr). Hell, he's been floating forever in general in his boss fights.

It wasn't as much a stomp as people think. And anyways, why would it matter?

WeeklyBattles said she beat the crap out of Aesir without the context she still required Baldr's help and that it wasn't the true Aesir, just Loptr with most of the powers Aesir had except Nothingness.

 

[ZXareo]

Caught off guard and staggered or not, Baldr still supported her on the platform arena. Maybe until they started flying then Baldr was out of the arena, but it was help nonetheless. 2v1 isn't exactly fair, is it?

He was out of the fight really early on, and when Bayonetta actually does QTE, she's in a 1v1. Balder is not seen again until we're outside of Aesir's dimension.

So did Aesir (Loptr). Hell, he's been floating forever in general in his boss fights.

A race car driver and an olympic athlete race each other, however they both are forced to race on foot.

I'm not gonna lie, the first half of your reply I don't understand. Are you saying that Nothingness is Ginnungagap?? Or are you saying that Nothingness actually amps you, despite Loki showing no physical advantage over base form Luka?

 

[Asdtgh]

He was out of the fight really early on, and when Bayonetta actually does QTE, she's in a 1v1. Balder is not seen again until we're outside of Aesir's dimension.

Help. None. The less.

Need I remind you Loptr had been calm the entire time until he "went shook" once Loki blue-balled him from obtaining his goal of reviving a new era as its god with Nothingness? That Trump Card was the only thing that really got him worried. Surprised by the satellite thrown back at him sure, but he recovered back to a striking and confident pose

A race car driver and an olympic athlete race each other, however they both are forced to race on foot.

Except that she has experience with aerial combat. Almost two whole adventures she went through, if we even exclude her time before the war. While I agree with you somewhat on this take [though not entirely the same context and situation Aesir (Loptr) and Bayonetta were in], it doesn't really change much when she can do numerous aerial moves with multiple different weaponry just as much as she can on the ground.

 

[Tony_di_bugalu]

this has already been explained a dozen times over, no, Bayo did not lose to Loptr or Aesir in a straight fight, and this was even confirmed in the guidebook later on.

Lmao no, literally everyone agreed Loptr was slapping Bayo around.

Also you never posted the guide thing

Thats already been posted half a dozen times, Comic literally reposts it in every reply she does lol

Can you repost it pls

 

[ZXareo]

Except that she has experience with aerial combat. Almost two whole adventures she went through, if we even exclude her time before the war. While I agree with you somewhat on this take [though not entirely the same context and situation Aesir (Loptr) and Bayonetta were in], it doesn't really change much when she can do numerous aerial moves with multiple different weaponry just as much as she can on the ground.

Race Car Drivers also do a lot of physical exercise, such as running. A race on foot wouldn't be foreign to them. But I think you get the point.

Lmao no, literally everyone agreed Loptr was slapping Bayo around.

Yeah. Round 1, decisive win. Round 2, Ran away but BFRed and knocked out unconscious. Win. Round 3, chocked her out, stole her Eye.

 

[Asdtgh]

- It is stated that, when the Trinity was one, that nothing existed outside of the Trinity (on a side note, I'd like if someone could reply with the scan for this, because I've seemingly lost it and can't find it going back in the thread). Therefore, Ginnungagap could not exist outside the boundaries of the Trinity.

- Ginnungagap is referred to as the "Chaotic Rift". This phrasing implies a connection to Chaos, therefore, it is reserved to Chaos.

Neither of these wholly convince me. In regard to the former, as far as I can tell, it's not clear when exactly Ginnungagap appeared or how - it would be a big point in favour of this argument if it could be proven it existed prior to the splitting of the Trinity, but otherwise, one could easily look at this and imagine that Ginnungagap formed during or after the splitting of the Trinity. Furthermore, the existence of realms that do not strictly adhere to the Trinity's structure (such as Purgatorio, said to be in the "centre" of the Trinity and used by Umbral Witches to traverse between realms) suggests that, despite what the statements suggest, a place doesn't need to strictly be a part of any single aspect of the Trinity.

In regard to the latter, this is rather weak by itself; I don't deny that it sounds like "Chaotic Rift" is referencing the realm of Chaos, but this is just an assumption. I doubt there are zero contexts where the word "chaos" could be used outside references to the realm called Chaos. In particular, a lot of things could be called "chaotic" without being in reference to the realm of Chaos. And even if it is, does this show it possesses exclusivity to Chaos?

While I believe the inferences presented are reasonable, I can't completely rule out the possibility that Ginnungagap encompasses more than just Chaos. Particularly, there is still some possibility that it encompasses all the realms, and isn't reserved entirely to the Trinity. This connects well into another concern:

Relying on pure deduction here would be acceptable if it wasn't for my previous question - there is an instance where all the evidence presented can be correct, and Ginnungagap can still encompass more than just Chaos. If that was the case, then Paradiso and Inferno don't have to have their own 5 dimensional spaces, and this concern is rectified.

Is this all pedantic? Yes, you could say so. I don't expect most verses would be held to the scrutiny that I am holding the Bayonetta verse now. However, I do have high standards for proof in matters like these, so I want every doubt to be stifled before I can firmly cast my judgement.

Here's another hint for what Ginnungagap is (Or basically the whole answer since this is getting out of hand and I do tend to get impatient. Apologies). It wasn't identified by the two clans simply, even with the Eyes of the World. These eyes were supposed to be able to see anything and everything in the world, along with creating it.

But in the "The Isle Between (1)" entry of Echoes of Memory, there was a place that even the Eyes could not fully locate easily. Despite its rule over the cosmology we once knew in Bayonetta 1 and 2, they are almost nothing to Ginnungagap, thus explaining its QS over them. Sure they still managed to find it, but it wasn't easy at all.

And what else is beyond the EoTW and is associated with emptiness? Aesir's Nothingness.

And what about Aesir that can handle this power of his? He's on a dimension surpassing time and space as not just a God of Chaos, but a Void-manipulating being. So Fimbulventr's no longer some higher plane of dimensionality, but just a simple mountain for Aesir/Loptr to laze around.

And this can also scale to another being, Omne. Who isn't even within "this realm". But the clans knew of her existence.

So 5-D for the true Aesir, Omne and yes, Singularity (Don't know about Jubileus, don't care lol). Because Singularity can indeed wipe the Trinity "in a snap". Cause he is affecting the abyss that towers the Trinity.

I've given enough, or basically all the hints, to what Ginnungagap is. But I'm fine with it either way. Just waiting for Comicgyal to finish their CRT comeback thread so that I can see what they still got wrong. Hope the diamonds are understood properly now...

 

[ZXareo]

So Fimbulventr's no longer some higher plane of dimensionality, but just a simple mountain for Aesir/Loptr to laze around.

Fimbulventr is, and always was, just a mountain, dude. Aesir's dimension is separate. We see what his dimension looks like in Chapter 16 A Sovereign Power.

 

[Tony_di_bugalu]

Imo Aesir should be the top dog of the verse

Also a lot of people agree ginnun is part of the trinity and apparently they posted proof I'm too lazy to look it up so there's no need to continue

 

[Comicgyal]

Can we save all this side commentary, for, something else? From this forward we’re supposed to just be addressing staff, in an attempt to hasten the end of this ridiculously long thread.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

This thread is abominable, lmao. Between the constant derailings, and all the kicked-up drama that it caused, just close it at this point, I concede on all points, I really do not care about this anymore.

 

[Comicgyal]

Alright. Having looked through everything presented in this thread, I believe the facts are clear and that I'm nearly ready to give a decisive verdict.

When the Trinity were one, there was nothing that existed outside of the one universe that made up reality. This universe was eventually split into three - Paradiso, Inferno, and Chaos. These realms were not of equal size, with lore stating that Paradiso and Inferno were larger than Chaos, but they created a balance via maintaining similar levels of "spiritual energy". Through an infinite number of parallel realities, the total number of worlds within each realm was infinite. In Bayonetta 3, it's established that there is a realm known as "Ginnungagap", which is also referred to as the "Chaotic Rift" that encompasses the worlds within Chaos. Going by wiki standards, it is asserted that a realm which encompasses a space-time must be at least 5 dimensional, thereby suggesting that Ginnungagap is 5 dimensional. Due to the existence of Ginnungagap within Chaos, and the statements suggesting Paradiso and Inferno are larger than Chaos, Paradiso and Inferno must also be at least 5 dimensional as a consequence. Therefore, the Trinity is made up of three 5 dimensional realms. Jublieus is stated to be capable of merging the Trinity together, reuniting them as one universe, which would require energy on a 5 dimensional scale. Therefore, Jubileus must be at least Low 1-C. Singularity is both stated to be stronger than Jubileus and characters around Jubileus' level, and has direct feats that would scale Singularity above these characters, therefore Singularity must be at least Low 1-C.

As far as I can tell, this is the cohesive (non-EE related) argument for Low 1-C Singularity by the opposition. To be honest, I'm inclined to say that I'd be okay with this being the justification provided on the profiles for Low 1-C. That being said, there are a couple of loose threads here - pedantic loose threads at that, but I dislike leaving unanswered questions by the end of a major revision. So I'm going to play the devil's advocate for a bit here and address all the questions I have that may or may not reveal important information for this cosmology.

1: While this may sound like beating a dead horse, even after everything I've read, I'm still not 100% confident that Ginnungagap is actually reserved entirely to Chaos. As far as I can tell, the biggest points of evidence for this is:

- It is stated that, when the Trinity was one, that nothing existed outside of the Trinity (on a side note, I'd like if someone could reply with the scan for this, because I've seemingly lost it and can't find it going back in the thread). Therefore, Ginnungagap could not exist outside the boundaries of the Trinity.

- Ginnungagap is referred to as the "Chaotic Rift". This phrasing implies a connection to Chaos, therefore, it is reserved to Chaos.

Neither of these wholly convince me. In regard to the former, as far as I can tell, it's not clear when exactly Ginnungagap appeared or how - it would be a big point in favour of this argument if it could be proven it existed prior to the splitting of the Trinity, but otherwise, one could easily look at this and imagine that Ginnungagap formed during or after the splitting of the Trinity. Furthermore, the existence of realms that do not strictly adhere to the Trinity's structure (such as Purgatorio, said to be in the "centre" of the Trinity and used by Umbral Witches to traverse between realms) suggests that, despite what the statements suggest, a place doesn't need to strictly be a part of any single aspect of the Trinity.

In regard to the latter, this is rather weak by itself; I don't deny that it sounds like "Chaotic Rift" is referencing the realm of Chaos, but this is just an assumption. I doubt there are zero contexts where the word "chaos" could be used outside references to the realm called Chaos. In particular, a lot of things could be called "chaotic" without being in reference to the realm of Chaos. And even if it is, does this show it possesses exclusivity to Chaos?

While I believe the inferences presented are reasonable, I can't completely rule out the possibility that Ginnungagap encompasses more than just Chaos. Particularly, there is still some possibility that it encompasses all the realms, and isn't reserved entirely to the Trinity. This connects well into another concern:

2: If Paradiso and Inferno also possess their own 5 dimensional spaces, do we have any direct references to them? I don't deny the power of deduction - if Chaos is 5 dimensional, and Paradiso and Inferno are larger than Chaos, Paradiso and Inferno can effectively be deduced to be 5 dimensional themselves. But this is a point of surprisingly major importance to the plot for there to seemingly be no references (at least, none mentioned so far) as to any kind of 5 dimensional space (or other equivalent of Ginnungagap) in Paradiso or Inferno. Our scaling and cosmology will be based on the assertion that these do exist, yet as far as I can tell, nothing of the sort has been stated, shown, or even implied in the whole Bayonetta series.

Relying on pure deduction here would be acceptable if it wasn't for my previous question - there is an instance where all the evidence presented can be correct, and Ginnungagap can still encompass more than just Chaos. If that was the case, then Paradiso and Inferno don't have to have their own 5 dimensional spaces, and this concern is rectified.

Is this all pedantic? Yes, you could say so. I don't expect most verses would be held to the scrutiny that I am holding the Bayonetta verse now. However, I do have high standards for proof in matters like these, so I want every doubt to be stifled before I can firmly cast my judgement.

@Comicgyal In particular, I'd appreciate your input here. You've provided a great deal of scans, quotes, and detailed explanations that have helped to clear up a lot of the confusion thus far in the thread. If you have the time, I'd be happy to hear what you have to say about these concerns.

I do still intend to reply, but after your concerns are hopefully addressed, can this thread be closed? The OP has conceded, and there are still other things to be addressed in staff discussion at a later date.

 

[DarkGrath]

I do still intend to reply, but after your concerns are hopefully addressed, can this thread be closed? The OP has conceded, and there are still other things to be addressed in staff discussion at a later date.

That would be fine by me. Would you rather I close the thread now and we can bring this to my message wall?

 

[Comicgyal]

That would be fine by me. Would you rather I close the thread now and we can bring this to my message wall?

Yes, thank you!

 

[DarkGrath]

Very well. I'll close this thread now.