Circular Reasoning in Ichigo's and Ginjo's Scaling

[AppleLord]

Urahara need help to injure him: http://www.mangahit.com/bleach/498/16

Urahara gets Immobilize by an arrow: http://www.mangahit.com/bleach/499/13

Injure Quilge gets kill from behind: http://www.mangahit.com/bleach/500/20, http://www.mangahit.com/bleach/500/21, same way Askin the "Elite" gets kill: http://www.mangahit.com/bleach/665/16

You're asking for Yoruichi, Urahara, Askin, Grimmjow, Quilge, Ginjo and Ichigo to get a downgrade. Base on Quilge not been an elite. Bambi, Bazz and Greemy are no elites either. Neither are they trust enough with intel directly from Yhwach.

The question remains. How do Ginjo and Fullbring Ichigo power scale from Shunsui or Lille? Quilge power scales from Ichigo but the latter?

 

[Amlad22]

Shunsui scaled to Lille, Urahara scaled to Shunsui, Quilge scaled to Urahara and Ginjo and Ichigo both scaled from him. That's what I remember from the thread

 

[Gwynbleiddd]

Just started rereading the final arc, but so far the scaling doesn't seem right.Shunsui was fighting Lille using hax (while Lille was clearly stronger) and there isn't a particular reason for Urahara to scale to Shunsui.

 

[Burning_Full_Fingers]

He pierced Lille without using hax as far as I remember. But I might be wrong.

 

[Gwynbleiddd]

As i said, i'm rereading the entire thing (13 chapters finished so far) but it will take a couple of days.

From what i remember Lille's main powers were his extreme AP (through hax) and his ability to regenerate.His durability wasn't that impressive and shouldn't be scaled to his AP.(i think one of his own attacks was able to vaporize half of his body).

 

[Amlad22]

Shunsui was using his shikai powers, that's true but when he stabbed Lille he wasn't using a hax attack. The hax is what allowed him to get behind Lille before he could react. However the stabs weren't hax

Urahara scaled because he shouldn't be much weaker or even weaker at all to Shunsui

 

[Gwynbleiddd]

Still my point stands, Lille's durability is lower than his AP.

 

[Amlad22]

That's not a proven fact. Your only proof is that his power is based on AP. However, his power isn't based on AP, that's a misconception. His power is the ability to pierce anything, basically ignoring durability.

 

[AppleLord]

There is misconception here. Lille's Mountain level AP comes from his Holy arrows city calc, before using his letter "X-Axis" hax ability. Which he uses after been revive by Yhwach. Same goes for Gerard and Pernida. They didn't get a chance to show their power as they stated, otherwise, Oetsu wouldn't had kill them. They were killed by speed blitz. Lille's Holy Arrows are been shown to be blockable, his X-axis invicible attack wasn't shown to be blockable, the anti-God mirror sword was the only item that deflected his attack back at him and the X-Axis bypassed his Intangibility.

 

[AppleLord]

I agree with @Kkapoios there is no reason at all for Urahara to be scale to Shunsui.

The following characters need a downgrade, Urahara, Askin, Quilge, Grimmjow, Ginjo, Ichigo and Yoruichi.

Shunsui powerscales to Lille because he pierce through Barro with his sword after using his shadow hax to blitz him. But then again, Barro wasn't bleeding or harm in anyway. Lille use his intangibility in base to prevent the sword from making contact with his body.

Shunsui needs a downgrade too.

 

[Amlad22]

Urahara defiantly scaled to Shunsui. He is comparable if not stronger than Shunsui.

The only reason Lille wasn't bleeding was because he became intangible

 

[Burning_Full_Fingers]

Where does Urahara being comparable to or stronger than Shunsui come from? Because I don't remember where that was stated.

 

[AppleLord]

Urahara isn't comparable to Shunsui in anyway. Shunsui was a teenager when Yamamoto was young and that was after defeating Yhwach a 1,000 years ago. Urahara wasn't even a vice captain yet, I don't remember if he was even born during that time. If anything the only other person to train under Yamamoto was Ukitake, who was seem as an equal to Shunsui. But thanks to his illness, he has poor stamina.

 

[Amlad22]

Urahara is likely stronger than Shunsui. They were both able to compete power and speed wise with elites. Plus base Aizen was able to take out Shunsui with two hits. Compare that to Urahara who took a full power hit from Chrysalis Aizen and got back up like 10 minutes later while Shunsui was still eating dirt

 

[AppleLord]

Lille is stronger than Askin. You can't compare them.

As for your other question. Shunsui is lazy.

http://www.mangahit.com/bleach/365/6, http://www.mangahit.com/bleach/365/7

 

[Amlad22]

Lille might be slightly stronger but he's a lot slower than Askin so I'd say they are comparable.

Shunsui being lazy doesn't affect the fact that he got beat by base Aizen in two shots

 

[AppleLord]

Any evidence that says that Askin matches anywhere near his strenght? How is Askin faster than him again?

It explains why he didn't get up. Unlike Urahara that was fresh to the battle, Shunsui fought Starkk before Aizen and tanked a couple of hits from him.

 

[Amlad22]

The elites are all in the same league when in their base forms. There's nothing to prove otherwise. Plus Askin was the only sternritter capable of keeping up with and reacting to Nimaya

Sure he was injured, but he still got stomped by BASE Aizen. The difference between base Aizen and Chrysalis Aizen is very big. So Kisuke fighting evolved Aizen is a very good feat

Also him not getting up against Starrk and Aizen are two different instances. Against Starrk he was fine and his face shows he wasn't very hurt. However look at his face against Aizen, he was clearly in a lot of pain http://www.goodmanga.net/bleach/chapter/393

 

[AppleLord]

You need to prove the opposite. Askin was a rookie that was ascent by his hax powers. Askin tells Oetsu that was the reason why Yhwach took him in.

What puts Nimaya above Shunsui in speed?

Explain how you calc that difference, Urahara didn't scratch Aizen and got one shot with the rest the moment Aizen stop playing around and stop blocking attacks. When Gin said that he was gonna kill Ichigo. By this logic Tomari scales to Edoo Madara for landing a blow on him.

He took damage from Starkk allowing Aizen to easily defeat him. In a interview Kubo was ask if Shunsui's bankai could had kill Aizen, his only answered was a laugh and a nod. It was old, so i can't find it right now. It was before the last arc started.

 

[Amlad22]

Fair enough, I'll agree that Lille is physically stronger than Askin

Speed wise Nimaya blitzed 3 elites at once. Shunsui needed hax just to get behind Lille

I'm not saying that Urahara is equal to Aizen. What I'm saying is that he was able to get up from an attack from evolved Aizen. Shunsui on the other hand couldn't do the same with base Aizen. His injuries weren't severe either, as I said earlier the gun shots barley fazed him. The only big injury he had was the slash to the back.

We are talking about shikai Shunsui and Urahara. Don't bring Bankai into this

 

[AppleLord]

I'm settled.. I'll wait for further opinions before saying anything else.

 

[Amlad22]

Fair enough, now we wait.

 

[Burning_Full_Fingers]

Err, who are we waiting for? I myself believe that Shikai Shunsui is superior to Shikai Urahara. It's his laziness that always gets to him. I mean, he got his eye taken out by Robert Accutrone of all people because of it. Him not getting up is because of his laziness. This is someone that was reluctant to deal with Chad when he was a ryoka and asked Starrk for them to pretend like they were fighting for real. Plus, you can't say that Shunsui hasn't taken more damaging attacks than two slashes to the back. Much more inferior Shinigami have taken worse.

But not to the extent that he would be one tier above him.

 

[AppleLord]

What @Fingers said.

 

[Gwynbleiddd]

I said i'm rereading the enire arc (currently read around 100 chapters)

Anyway i'm closing this and i'll make another thread when i'm done.