- 12,436
- 4,562
Alright, so. I am doing this thread kinda late, given that the last thread that was ever made for this verse was this March, and I've got issues on why I can't keep with it.
So, we got the Chrono verse, a kinda niche verse that, similar to EarthBound, while being very popular among the JRPG community, it's not really in the powerscaling one.
And the profiles are so damn bad that it's hard for me to get a starting point on why for its own good it should be purged from existence and then re-done from 0.
Why Low 2-C sucks and breaks the in-verse powerscaling
Everyone in the verse is Low 2-C, and the reason of that are 3 feats, and while 2 of them are correct, they completely break the scaling.
The first is FATE's feat of sending an infinite space-time to the Darkness Beyond Time, which is technically sending it to Nonexistence, which is technically fine, if only for the fact that FATE is directly empowered from the Frozen Flame and uses it as power source, meaning that it wasn't just her power alone. This straight up messes with scaling by a good amount, as FATE is supposed to downscale from the Time Devourer, but I'll get there shortly.
The second is Lynx's ForeverZero, an attack that is claimed to be such because it created what it seemigly a whole universe and then destroy it. But the problem is that it's a 4-A feat. The description is "All things get reduced to eternal nothingness", but if you see the thing, you'll see him creating a pocket realm with a bunch of stars and nebulae, and then erasing it, returning to the main reality. This is not only not Low 2-C, but also is not really right to fully apply it on Lynx for reasons I'll tell later.
The third reason is Lavos' base form, which is Low 2-C due to to scaling from the Frozen Flame, which can generate power equivalent to a Big Bang, due to it being a splinter of his body. While this sounds solid at first for someone who does not know the verse, if you've played the series, you'd know why context completely contradicts this notion. The Frozen Flame is directly connected to Lavos, and who gets it gets connected to Lavos as well, gaining extraordinary powers, which is technically true, as the Zeal Kingdom intended to use Lavos' power to get eternal life, which is one of the powers that the Frozen Flame grants to its user. The problem is that the Frozen Flame in Chrono Cross is not proven to have such power in Chrono Trigger, and in fact, Lavos gets constantly empowered from absorbing stuff like energy, magic, living beings or also dreams (aka the Type 1 concepts that shape reality and yadda yadda, you know), and thanks to the latter and merging with Schala, Lavos became first the Dream Devourer, and then the Time Devourer. This already should tell that scaling a Frozen Flame that is connected from the Time Devourer to a Lavos of two evolutive stages before it's already stupid.
But this Frozen Flame scaling gets even worse when you see the verse's powerscaling, that the VBW pages completely reject for some reason. So, you know Lucca, right? She aided in the defeat of the first form of Lavos in a relatively long battle with 2 companions that were chosen from the player. The thing is that Lynx, a mid-game boss, is heavily implied to have killed her, and it's the entire reason on why Kid is on his ass all the time in the game, as Lynx has killed Lucca and burned to the ground the orphanage she grew in. This already says a lot as FATE with the Frozen Flame is the third to last major boss that is fought in the game, before the Dragon God and the Time Devourer, and Lynx is part of FATE as her biological avatar other than being a boss that is fought in the first half of the game.
It's also important to tell that when Lynx made that statement, he has forcefully swapped his body with Serge after said mid-game fight, and using Lynx's body, Serge has fought a LOT of enemies, including the dragons that each embody one of the 6 elements, before fighting Lynx (now called Dark Serge) again, and some time after Serge gained back his original body. It's obvious that the two of them became way stronger after the body swap, and even then, FATE with the Frozen Flame is still much stronger than Dark Serge.
The way this wiki makes the scaling is this:
Lavos > FATE > Dark Serge > Lynx > Lucca >= Lavos (and yes, in Chrono Trigger Lavos can be defeated from also just one or two party members)
So you can see that this does not really make any sense. The main reason why this abomination of a scaling was even argued was because of Lavos absorbing the power of the Earth, thus being already stronger than the Dragon God (aka the boss that is fought instantly before the Time Devourer in Cross), which is the embodiment of the planet's energy and the 6 colors of the elements. But the problem is that the statement here is meant more about the physical planet's core rather than the Dragon God, especially when the Elements weren't exactly a thing in Chrono Trigger at all, as in the first game the "special attacks" are Techs and Items, and not Elements (which also act as consumable stuff other than special attacks), and the Cross Plot wasn't exactly planned when making Trigger, as Cross was made after Radical Dreamers, which was made after Trigger, other than the development of Cross being made only after Trigger. Plus, the first form of Lavos being as strong as the Dragon God is contradicted from the fact that the latter was absorbed from Lavos only when the latter was in the Darkness Beyond Time, and in that place he was already merging with Schala. Thus the energy base Lavos was absorbing in the Earth is not the Dragon God, and the two characters have basically no link to each other.
So in short:
If you guys want to discuss the feats, I'll gladly do it, I already have the tiers in mind.
Every profile outside of Lavos is terrible
Lavos is the only profile that can be called decent. Everyone else lacks keys for Early/Mid/Late Game (especially Serge, that mf is the one that goes through the most power ups through the game), keys for Elements (every character in Cross can equip basically all the Elements, and boy there are a lot) and there basically no scans for almost nothing outside few stuff. The MHS+ rating comes from Crono, and is even wrong, given no one is dodging this attack. While I think MHS+ (or even Immeasurable if you highball some stuff enough) can be argued, is definitely not from that.
Not to mention that only Crono, Lucca and Marle have business at having concept resistance from the Dream Devourer's attack, as only them have gotten a power up each right before fighting it. Magus, Frog and Ayla no, they did not, so them fighting him is just Game Mechanics if anything.
Plus the verse page uses just fanart, come on.
Inactive Supporters
Basically, @Ultima_Reality does not bother with the verse anymore, @Hagane_no_Saiyajin is completely inactive, @Jinsye barely bothers with this wiki now, @DarkDragonMedeus is very busy in general, @The_real_cal_howard and @OnsokunoSonic are inactive too.
Plus the last CRT took 1 or 2 months before getting applied, and is too much.
What to do?
Delete the verse, as there's too much wrong with it, pages are all very low quality and fixing it with CRTs would take too much time and effort, and would be way easier to straight up delete and then re-do it from Scratch. The 6D thing is outdated due to the new "bigger than 2-A" standard, and the verse would just be 5D given the Temporal Dimensions stuff anyway.
Lavos' profile should be probably archived, as it as the most useful information after all.
So, we got the Chrono verse, a kinda niche verse that, similar to EarthBound, while being very popular among the JRPG community, it's not really in the powerscaling one.
And the profiles are so damn bad that it's hard for me to get a starting point on why for its own good it should be purged from existence and then re-done from 0.
Why Low 2-C sucks and breaks the in-verse powerscaling
Everyone in the verse is Low 2-C, and the reason of that are 3 feats, and while 2 of them are correct, they completely break the scaling.
The first is FATE's feat of sending an infinite space-time to the Darkness Beyond Time, which is technically sending it to Nonexistence, which is technically fine, if only for the fact that FATE is directly empowered from the Frozen Flame and uses it as power source, meaning that it wasn't just her power alone. This straight up messes with scaling by a good amount, as FATE is supposed to downscale from the Time Devourer, but I'll get there shortly.
The second is Lynx's ForeverZero, an attack that is claimed to be such because it created what it seemigly a whole universe and then destroy it. But the problem is that it's a 4-A feat. The description is "All things get reduced to eternal nothingness", but if you see the thing, you'll see him creating a pocket realm with a bunch of stars and nebulae, and then erasing it, returning to the main reality. This is not only not Low 2-C, but also is not really right to fully apply it on Lynx for reasons I'll tell later.
The third reason is Lavos' base form, which is Low 2-C due to to scaling from the Frozen Flame, which can generate power equivalent to a Big Bang, due to it being a splinter of his body. While this sounds solid at first for someone who does not know the verse, if you've played the series, you'd know why context completely contradicts this notion. The Frozen Flame is directly connected to Lavos, and who gets it gets connected to Lavos as well, gaining extraordinary powers, which is technically true, as the Zeal Kingdom intended to use Lavos' power to get eternal life, which is one of the powers that the Frozen Flame grants to its user. The problem is that the Frozen Flame in Chrono Cross is not proven to have such power in Chrono Trigger, and in fact, Lavos gets constantly empowered from absorbing stuff like energy, magic, living beings or also dreams (aka the Type 1 concepts that shape reality and yadda yadda, you know), and thanks to the latter and merging with Schala, Lavos became first the Dream Devourer, and then the Time Devourer. This already should tell that scaling a Frozen Flame that is connected from the Time Devourer to a Lavos of two evolutive stages before it's already stupid.
But this Frozen Flame scaling gets even worse when you see the verse's powerscaling, that the VBW pages completely reject for some reason. So, you know Lucca, right? She aided in the defeat of the first form of Lavos in a relatively long battle with 2 companions that were chosen from the player. The thing is that Lynx, a mid-game boss, is heavily implied to have killed her, and it's the entire reason on why Kid is on his ass all the time in the game, as Lynx has killed Lucca and burned to the ground the orphanage she grew in. This already says a lot as FATE with the Frozen Flame is the third to last major boss that is fought in the game, before the Dragon God and the Time Devourer, and Lynx is part of FATE as her biological avatar other than being a boss that is fought in the first half of the game.
It's also important to tell that when Lynx made that statement, he has forcefully swapped his body with Serge after said mid-game fight, and using Lynx's body, Serge has fought a LOT of enemies, including the dragons that each embody one of the 6 elements, before fighting Lynx (now called Dark Serge) again, and some time after Serge gained back his original body. It's obvious that the two of them became way stronger after the body swap, and even then, FATE with the Frozen Flame is still much stronger than Dark Serge.
The way this wiki makes the scaling is this:
Lavos > FATE > Dark Serge > Lynx > Lucca >= Lavos (and yes, in Chrono Trigger Lavos can be defeated from also just one or two party members)
So you can see that this does not really make any sense. The main reason why this abomination of a scaling was even argued was because of Lavos absorbing the power of the Earth, thus being already stronger than the Dragon God (aka the boss that is fought instantly before the Time Devourer in Cross), which is the embodiment of the planet's energy and the 6 colors of the elements. But the problem is that the statement here is meant more about the physical planet's core rather than the Dragon God, especially when the Elements weren't exactly a thing in Chrono Trigger at all, as in the first game the "special attacks" are Techs and Items, and not Elements (which also act as consumable stuff other than special attacks), and the Cross Plot wasn't exactly planned when making Trigger, as Cross was made after Radical Dreamers, which was made after Trigger, other than the development of Cross being made only after Trigger. Plus, the first form of Lavos being as strong as the Dragon God is contradicted from the fact that the latter was absorbed from Lavos only when the latter was in the Darkness Beyond Time, and in that place he was already merging with Schala. Thus the energy base Lavos was absorbing in the Earth is not the Dragon God, and the two characters have basically no link to each other.
So in short:
- Lynx's ForeverZero was used only from stronger form of himself, and that feat is just 4-A.
- FATE and the Frozen Flame do not scale to base Lavos, but the Time Devourer.
If you guys want to discuss the feats, I'll gladly do it, I already have the tiers in mind.
Every profile outside of Lavos is terrible
Lavos is the only profile that can be called decent. Everyone else lacks keys for Early/Mid/Late Game (especially Serge, that mf is the one that goes through the most power ups through the game), keys for Elements (every character in Cross can equip basically all the Elements, and boy there are a lot) and there basically no scans for almost nothing outside few stuff. The MHS+ rating comes from Crono, and is even wrong, given no one is dodging this attack. While I think MHS+ (or even Immeasurable if you highball some stuff enough) can be argued, is definitely not from that.
Not to mention that only Crono, Lucca and Marle have business at having concept resistance from the Dream Devourer's attack, as only them have gotten a power up each right before fighting it. Magus, Frog and Ayla no, they did not, so them fighting him is just Game Mechanics if anything.
Plus the verse page uses just fanart, come on.
Inactive Supporters
Basically, @Ultima_Reality does not bother with the verse anymore, @Hagane_no_Saiyajin is completely inactive, @Jinsye barely bothers with this wiki now, @DarkDragonMedeus is very busy in general, @The_real_cal_howard and @OnsokunoSonic are inactive too.
Plus the last CRT took 1 or 2 months before getting applied, and is too much.
What to do?
Delete the verse, as there's too much wrong with it, pages are all very low quality and fixing it with CRTs would take too much time and effort, and would be way easier to straight up delete and then re-do it from Scratch. The 6D thing is outdated due to the new "bigger than 2-A" standard, and the verse would just be 5D given the Temporal Dimensions stuff anyway.
Lavos' profile should be probably archived, as it as the most useful information after all.
Last edited:
