Chibaku Tensei Calc Problems

[Damage3245]

I didn't know whether to create a blog to address this or a thread, so I'll go with a thread to generate some discussion.

In the very important calc for the size of Chibaku Tensei (which determines the size of the crater and speed of the Rasenshuriken), it is pointed out that we can supposedly see Nagato's hideout from a double-page shot that shows the whole crater.

The only issue being I don't see any evidence for why we should consider this random green hill to be the same one that has Nagato's hideout on top of it.

There is another issue too in that Pain only through up the core for the Chibaku Tensei after travelling a certain distance away from the village which is still visible in the background.

When Naruto emerges from the rubble and looks in the distance he too can see Konoha Village not that far away.

For Pain to travel far away enough from the village to not get it caught up in the Chibaku Tensei, he'd have to have travelled well over 62 kilometers or so going by the calc at least. That's pretty far away for Nagato be from the village considered he needs to be nearby to control the Pains.

EDIT: I have made my own version of the calc here, though it has not been evaluated yet: https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:Damage3245/Nagato's_Chibaku_Tensei_and_Speed

 

[M3X_2.0]

Can we discuss about the timeframe here too?

 

[Damage3245]

Can we discuss about the timeframe here too?

Sorry, I'd rather discuss that after this topic.

 

[M3X_2.0]

Ok the. I will message some members about this

 

[The_Causality]

Two solution here:

• Firstly, Use the Rock Mountain in the scan with a Height of the Average mountain (609 meters)
• Or scale Nagato's Mountain calculated with the Rock Mountain here (so basically an assumption)

 

[M3X_2.0]

Nagato's hideout is a forest, but we can only see mountain there, so, we cant sale his hideout to rock mountains

 

[IMadeThisOn8-1-2017]

I had the same issues with this calc, damage, it's definitely not a viable calc when the assumptions are pretty much debunked in the art or aren't solid. Good math, foundation is wrong.

The Causality brings up good alternatives if we still wish to use the mountains to scale a size and distance.

I've also seen calcs use the cloud levels to get a size as clouds can be about 2000 meters high.

 

[BlackeJan]

Ask Kep About it since he made it

 

[MostPowerfull]

I remember there are some image inconsistencies, but I do not think that's enough to set a downgrade. The art is basically saying that CT is extremely small.

It has also never been said the distance that Nagato needs to be in control of the Pain, again that the number of kilometers seems irrelevant, since it can be interpretive (62 kilometers for Nagato, it may be little or close).
Using clouds and etc, would also make calc City Level (if I'm not mistaken, Gwynbleiddd made it), which would make it weaker than casual Pain attacks.

I propose that they use the standard height of a mountain.

 

[Tenshin-Ta]

[the user ideally transmits their chakra from the highest and closest point possible so that they can have the best possible range.]

Like MP said it was never established on what the limit of Nagato's distance of controlling the Pains. And if the mountains are used the result would probably be Island or somewhere checked Gwynn's old calc

 

[Damage3245]

I'll try and do a recalc using a couple of the other options, and see what people think.

 

[Damage3245]

I made a version of the calc using the standard height of a mountain: https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:Damage3245/Nagato's_Chibaku_Tensei_and_Speed

The Chibaku Tensei would be Mountain level, and Nagato's speed would be Massively Hypersonic.

 

[ShrekAlmighty]

Isnt 400 megatons 7-A?

 

[Spinoirr]

Yeah, isn't that 7-A?

 

[Damage3245]

Whoops, sorry, you're right. I got mixed up between City level and Mountain level.

 

[M3X_2.0]

Kep made a case for why we can use 3km for Mountains

 

[M3X_2.0]

Using clouds and etc, would also make calc City Level (if I'm not mistaken, Gwynbleiddd made it), which would make it weaker than casual Pain attacks.

This is correct. Chibaku Tensei would contradict various calculated feats. That would give scaling problems. CT is one of the strongest Nagato's abilities, and one of its weaker ones arrives at Mountain level and Island level.

 

[Damage3245]

This is correct. Chibaku Tensei would contradict various calculated feats. That would give scaling problems. CT is one of the strongest Nagato's abilities, and one of its weaker ones arrives at Mountain level and Island level.

Whether the calced result is lower than one of Pain's earlier feats is irrelevant to the topic of whether the current calc is flawed.

There are no scaling problems from the Chibaku Tensei being calced at Mountain level.

The only change would be that Pain's profile would go from:

Attack Potency: Mountain level+ (Fought equally against Sage Mode Jiraiya and Naruto), far higher with a fully charged Shinra Tensei. Country level with Chibaku Tensei

to:

Attack Potency: Mountain level+ (Fought equally against Sage Mode Jiraiya and Naruto), far higher with a fully charged Shinra Tensei.

 

[M3X_2.0]

Whether the calced result is lower than one of Pain's earlier feats is irrelevant to the topic of whether the current calc is flawed.

But at no time did I deny it, except that we should not use your calculation.

Nagato scale above this physically and with weaker jutsus than the CT.

The AP should be

Attack Potency: Mountain level+ (Fought equally against Sage Mode Jiraiya and Naruto), far higher with a fully charged Shinra Tensei, even higher with Chibaku Tensei (Should be his most powerfull abilitie)

• Rain Tiger calc is wrong, need to be redone.
• There is no reason to use CT calc while he scale above that

 

[M3X_2.0]

And if I am not mistaken, after some revisions he would scale far above that, Island level or Large Island (Nagato only)

 

[Damage3245]

I don't remember if Chibaku Tensei was ever stated to be Nagato's most powerful ability.

The only thing we were told IIRC was that Nagato needed Tendo to be closer to him in order to use it effectively.

 

[M3X_2.0]

It is the technique that most requires chakra, he even bleeds to use it.

 

[Damage3245]

It is the technique that most requires chakra, he even bleeds to use it.

That is a fair point, but even so that doesn't mean it is far higher than his fully charged Shinra Tensei which also required all of his Chakra to perform.

 

[M3X_2.0]

Well, whatever. higher with Chibaku Tensei is fine then

 

[Dzhindzholia]

I am not fine with this,the whole thing is bigger than mountains,it can't yield only 400 megatons.

Dariel's calc.

Was rejected only due to inconsistency.

 

[M3X_2.0]

Yeah, there is no need to lowball the calc like that. We CAN scale Nagato's hideout from green "mountains"

 

[Damage3245]

I am not fine with this,the whole thing is bigger than mountains,it can't yield only 400 megatons.
Dariel's calc.

Was rejected only due to inconsistency.

Dariel's calc has the same flaw as Kep's calc.

There is no reason to assume that random hill is the same one that Nagato's hideout is on.

 

[AstralKing7]

CT is Nagato strongest ability

 

[MostPowerfull]

In fact, the calculation is not flawed. He's pretty solid! And it would cause problems of scaling, since CT is the technique that produces the most pressure and has the greatest use of chakra, among the techniques of Nagato. Being on the Mountain level causes me much more discomfort when practically all of Nagato's techniques are almost at Island level.

The crater is more than 100km a little worried to me, but it is dozens of times bigger than the mountains, which they have there, easily 3km.
In Dariel's picture, we can also see that the gray mountains are nothing/little different from this "mountain of grass."

What would be the real problem with the current calculation? Just the fact that there are few image inconsistencies?.

 

[AstralKing7]

That's all that is being brought is art inconsistencies tbh

 

[Damage3245]

> What would be the real problem with the current calculation? Just the fact that there are few image inconsistencies?.

The main issue being as I've stated that the size is massively inflated due to the baseless assumptions used to get the size of the crater.

Problems of scaling would need to be addressed after the calcs have been looked at - they're not a reason for the calc not existing in the first place.

 

[MostPowerfull]

What hypotheses? There is no hypothesis in the calculation, much less unfounded.
The whole size of the crater follows the calculation of the tree above the "mountain of grass", which as I said, does not have a great difference of the grayest mountains.
There is literally nothing that is unfounded!

I really do not understand the reason for the downgrade!

 

[Damage3245]

What hypotheses? There is no hypothesis in the calculation, much less unfounded.
The whole size of the crater follows the calculation of the tree above the "mountain of grass", which as I said, does not have a great difference of the grayest mountains.
There is literally nothing that is unfounded!
I really do not understand the reason for the downgrade!

The calculation is assuming that the green hill that Nagato's hideout is located on is one of the green hills visible near the edge of the crater on the double-page shot.

Despite there being no indication that this is the case.

 

[M3X_2.0]

We dont need indications, thats just an assumption

 

[Damage3245]

We dont need indications, thats just an assumptio

For it to be anything other than a baseless assumption, it needs an indication.

Otherwise how is it any better than just scaling the crater to the mountains?

 

[AstralKing7]

I believe keep used that Green hill because of the fact that it's the only one that got shown with mountains behind it that weren't green when Naruto senses where Nagato was hiding. It actually makes sense and uses less assumptions

 

[MostPowerfull]

I understand! But this be solved, scaling the same through the grayest mountains. The calculation would fall a lot (from country to island), but would be more consistent, thanks to "mountain of grass" being almost the same size as the gray mountains...

But that assumption would also make a little of sense. After all, we see that the "mountain of grass" is on the edge of where the gray mountains begin. So assuming it to be that "grass heaped up," makes a little sense.

 

[Dzhindzholia]

@Damage3245

Maybe your calc is the one that has flaws,not the other way around.

 

[Damage3245]

@Damage3245
Maybe your calc is the one that has flaws,not the other way around.

Gee, thank you for the constructive dialogue.

You are more than welcome to comment on the calc if you think there are flaws with it.

 

[M3X_2.0]

There is no baseless assumption, you just want to lowball this calculation. Nagato's hideout is located in a green hill, and Kep's calc use a green hill as a base. Why we need the specific green hill while all of them looks like the same and have almost the same size?

Because we have others ways to scale better than this. We clearly see that the mountains are far bigger than any green hill there, and Kep already made a case saying that we can use 3km for mountains.