Chara's attack power.

[Parks_Brit]

I do not beleive Chara's attack power is as high as the article suggests. The ludicrous ammount of damage given is easily explained in the attack being physical rather than magical. Frisk has defended only from magic based attacks the whole game, and has a considerible defence against it. However, physical attacks are compleatly different as far as damage dealt is concerned. The reason the damage dealt was such a large number is that Chara stabbed Frisk, who need I remind you is a child, with a knife. The attack ignored Frisk's defence and reality insued, Frisk was a small child that would have been obliterated with a physical attack targeting a vital organ.

The screen goes black because Frisk is dead, not because the game was destroyed.

 

[Promestein]

Chara doesn't attack Frisk, they attack the game. You ARE NOT Frisk - and Chara is talking to you, the player, not Frisk. Frisk is a completely separate entity.

 

[Senkoro]

So is it a matter of interpretation or is there solid evidence for this?

 

[Parks_Brit]

Chara doesn't attack Frisk, they attack the game. You ARE NOT Frisk - and Chara is talking to you, the player, not Frisk. Frisk is a completely separate entity.

Do you have proof of this?

The only way in which the game changes upon Chara's attack is the addition of a single file. The addition of a file inplies something within the game changed, rather than the game being destroyed. Deletion of the file the attack adds causes the game to boot up as if Chara never attacked.

So is it a matter of interpretation or is there solid evidence for this?

If it's a matter of interprestation, then the page should be edited to reflect that.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Chara doesn't attack Frisk, they attack the game. You ARE NOT Frisk - and Chara is talking to you, the player, not Frisk. Frisk is a completely separate entity.

This.

Flowey specifically speaks about Frisk to the Player after the true ending, and Chara speaking only to Frisk would not make sense. The player is treated as an entirely separate being, as Frisk has a defined personality and is manipulated by either Chara or the Player when they go down any route which isn't true pacifist. Also, Chara specifically speaks about the world as if it's been destroyed, and the whole bargain with them is for them to restore the world in return for your soul.

 

[Senkoro]

Are we really using game mechanics like that? Isn't this considered a sort of abuse in the system which doesn't amount to anything within the actual context of the game? Just because you save and load a file doesn't mean you can now time travel.

Or is there something within the content of the game IE lore or statements etc that proves this.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Do you have proof of this?

The only way in which the game changes upon Chara's attack is the addition of a single file. The addition of a file inplies something within the game changed, rather than the game being destroyed. Deletion of the file the attack adds causes the game to boot up as if Chara never attacked.

The game would not stop if Frisk was killed. This is never the case any other time Frisk is killed, except against Omega Flowey, who forcibly shuts down the game.

 

[Parks_Brit]

Chara doesn't attack Frisk, they attack the game. You ARE NOT Frisk - and Chara is talking to you, the player, not Frisk. Frisk is a completely separate entity.

This.
Flowey specifically speaks to Frisk after the true ending, and Chara speaking only to Frisk would not make sense. The player is treated as an entirely separate being, as Frisk has a defined personality and is manipulated by either Chara or the Player when they go down any route which isn't true pacifist. Also, Chara specifically speaks about the world as if it's been destroyed, and the whole bargain with them is for them to restore the world in return for your soul.

Firstly, you act as if Chara is a trustworthy source of information. This is simply not the case, as Chara is in every way nefarious. If the world was truely destroyed, then the files would be destroyed as well as that is what the world is made of. Instead, a file is added onto the game as if the world was not in fact destroyed, but something within it was.

As for Frisk and the player being seperate, this is true, but the player explicitly uses Frisk as a avatar. Destruction of the avatar and sending the avatar to death would cause the player to see what the avatar see's: The nothing after death.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Are we really using game mechanics like that? Isn't this considered a sort of abuse in the system which doesn't amount to anything within the actual context of the game? Just because you save and load a file doesn't mean you can now time travel.
Or is there something within the content of the game IE lore or statements etc that proves this.

It's quite literally how the powers work within the context of the game. Undertale is hard to debate if you have not played it, because there is a lot of explaining to do.

 

[Parks_Brit]

Do you have proof of this?

The only way in which the game changes upon Chara's attack is the addition of a single file. The addition of a file inplies something within the game changed, rather than the game being destroyed. Deletion of the file the attack adds causes the game to boot up as if Chara never attacked.

The game would not stop if Frisk was killed. This is never the case any other time Frisk is killed, except against Omega Flowey, who forcibly shuts down the game.

The thing is, the game never stops. This time is explicitly different. Omega Flowey reloads a save back to where Frisk is alive to kill them again. Chara does not.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Firstly, you act as if Chara is a trustworthy source of information. This is simply not the case, as Chara is in every way nefarious. If the world was truely destroyed, then the files would be destroyed as well as that is what the world is made of. Instead, a file is added onto the game as if the world was not in fact destroyed, but something within it was.

As for Frisk and the player being seperate, this is true, but the player explicitly uses Frisk as a avatar. Destruction of the avatar and sending the avatar to death would cause the player to see what the avatar see's: The nothing after death.

I don't believe there is any point in which Chara lies to you. Them being evil does not mean everything they say is a lie, as they are not Flowey. The added file makes sure Chara appears in all your subsequent playthroughs of the game. I would not expect Toby to actually make the game delete itself just for part of the story.

Every time Frisk is killed, the player can still act. That is not the case, here.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

The thing is, the game never stops. This time is explicitly different. Omega Flowey reloads a save back to where Frisk is alive to kill them again. Chara does not.

The game stops when Flowey kills you. I am not referring to the programmed event at the end of the fight, but any time you are killed during the fight.

 

[Parks_Brit]

I don't believe there is any point in which Chara lies to you. Them being evil does not mean everything they say is a lie, as they are not Flowey. The added file makes sure Chara appears in all your subsequent playthroughs of the game. I would not expect Toby to actually make the game delete itself just for part of the story.

Every time Frisk is killed, the player can still act. That is not the case, here.

There are two different files that are added.

The file 682 is added when Chara does the slash and causes the ludicrous amoutns of damage.

The file 683 is added when the player accepts Chara's offer.

The reason there's a chance Chara is lying is because they have a incentive to do so. If the player beleives the universe is destroyed and they must give Chara the soul to play again, that makes them more likely to agree than if they said that they would bring the player back and let them keep playing if they give them their soul.

 

[Senkoro]

Still is it fair to treat a game as an entire universe? I mean that sounds incredibly unreliable, for instance in Assasin's creed unity, only one city exists which is london, does breaking the game somehow mean that the character is city level?

Also what about visual novel games that have a bunch of high level characters like Dies Irael? Or Umineko?

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

So, are the player and Chara like, equals? For example, are they Ma'at and Chaos? The dark and light side of the force? Creation and destruction?

 

[Promestein]

But you literally can't do anything but accept the offer in-canon, so Chara is probably telling the truth. You CAN delete the file, but that's not really a canon thing that's around.

I am getting really tired of these constant Undertale debates about the same things.

 

[Parks_Brit]

The thing is, the game never stops. This time is explicitly different. Omega Flowey reloads a save back to where Frisk is alive to kill them again. Chara does not.

The game stops when Flowey kills you. I am not referring to the programmed event at the end of the fight, but any time you are killed during the fight.

The game consistantly crashes when Frisk dies and is unable to load a previous save. This happens when Omega Flowey kills you and also happens when Chara does the slash. Therefore, it is reasonable to assume the death of Frisk.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

There are two different files that are added.

The file 682 is added when Chara does the slash and causes the ludicrous amoutns of damage.

The file 683 is added when the player accepts Chara's offer.

The reason there's a chance Chara is lying is because they have a incentive to do so. If the player beleives the universe is destroyed and they must give Chara the soul to play again, that makes them more likely to agree than if they said that they would bring the player back and let them keep playing if they give them their soul.

That would be a very specific lie for something which could be accomplished by Chara not lying to the player. Had Chara said "I will never allow you to return to the world until you accept my offer", the player's choices would have been the same. There is no reason for them to make up the world being destroyed.

 

[Senkoro]

I feel like an email to the creator of the game would end this debate.

 

[Promestein]

I feel like an email to the creator of the game would end this debate.

No, it wouldn't, because he won't answer, because he doesn't care.

 

[Parks_Brit]

That would be a very specific lie for something which could be accomplished by Chara not lying to the player. Had Chara said "I will never allow you to return to the world until you accept my offer", the player's choices would have been the same. There is no reason for them to make up the world being destroyed.

The player is much more likely to attempt to find a work around by exploiting the game if you told them the avatar is dead. If you tell them the world is destroyed, it adds urgency to the decision and makes you less likely to attempt to find the work around I described.

 

[Parks_Brit]

But you literally can't do anything but accept the offer in-canon, so Chara is probably telling the truth. You CAN delete the file, but that's not really a canon thing that's around.
I am getting really tired of these constant Undertale debates about the same things.

There is a ending in the game specifically for situations in which none of the ending criteria are met. I doubt Toby would have overlooked such a obvious oversight.

I feel like an email to the creator of the game would end this debate.

No, it wouldn't, because he won't answer, because he doesn't care.

The reason he wouldn't answer is because he want's to leave this open to interpretation, making it more likely to start digging for answers.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

The game consistantly crashes when Frisk dies and is unable to load a previous save. This happens when Omega Flowey kills you and also happens when Chara does the slash. Therefore, it is reasonable to assume the death of Frisk.

The only time this happens is when Flowey and Chara kill you. Flowey is forcing you out, because he is now the one in control, and only lets you continue due to his own sadism.

If Chara DIDN'T destroy anything and simply killed Frisk, the player could have simply loaded their previous save.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

But what if he emails back saying Chara's not even universal akin to Brevort's Marvel speeds, despite the fact that all evidence points to multiversity? Then things will get even more complicated lol.

For the record, that wasn't a suggestion or subliminal messaging at all. A joke if anything.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

The player is much more likely to attempt to find a work around by exploiting the game if you told them the avatar is dead. If you tell them the world is destroyed, it adds urgency to the decision and makes you less likely to attempt to find the work around I described.

Again, this is assuming there is no fourth wall of any kind whatsoever, along with the fact the player simply couldn't recreate the world on their own, which they logically could, if they were powerful enough to override Chara's influence, in the first place.

 

[Parks_Brit]

The only time this happens is when Flowey and Chara kill you. Flowey is forcing you out, because he is now the one in control, and only lets you continue due to his own sadism.

If Chara DIDN'T destroy anything and simply killed Frisk, the player could have simply loaded their previous save.

Not if Chara was the one in control, in a way similar to how Flowey did it.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

But what if he emails back saying Chara's not even universal akin to Brevort's Marvel speeds, despite the fact that all evidence points to multiversity? Then things will get even more complicated lol.
For the record, that wasn't a suggestion or subliminal messaging at all.

Actual feats are put in higher standing than later author statement (i.e. Flash and the nuke, FTL Homestuck, etc).

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Not if Chara was the one in control, in a way similar to how Flowey did it.

That would also mean Chara was in control of the world, which is why they would have no reason to lie in the first place. Again, the only reason Frisk is even able to reenter the world and fight Omega Flowey is because Flowey allows it. He even taunts you about it if you die enough times.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Phew. I like my multiversal Chara.

 

[Parks_Brit]

The player is much more likely to attempt to find a work around by exploiting the game if you told them the avatar is dead. If you tell them the world is destroyed, it adds urgency to the decision and makes you less likely to attempt to find the work around I described.

Again, this is assuming there is no fourth wall of any kind whatsoever, along with the fact the player simply couldn't recreate the world on their own, which they logically could, if they were powerful enough to override Chara's influence, in the first place.

Undertale is a meta game with meta themes. Chara was clearly able to pierce the fourth wall, so it's logical that she would have some knowledge about the game and about the player's power and other fourth wall insights.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Undertale is a meta game with meta themes. Chara was clearly able to pierce the fourth wall, so it's logical that she would have some knowledge about the game and about the player's power and other fourth wall insights.

There is a difference between being meta and simply being superfluous and not making sense. Assuming that something such as the game actually being wiped from your hard drive would need to happen in order to accomplish the same meaning is expecting way too much.

 

[Parks_Brit]

Not if Chara was the one in control, in a way similar to how Flowey did it.

That would also mean Chara was in control of the world, which is why they would have no reason to lie in the first place. Again, the only reason Frisk is even able to reenter the world and fight Omega Flowey is because Flowey allows it. He even taunts you about it if you die enough times.

Chara is in control of the Saving and Loading process, not necciarilly in control of the world. This is the control Flowey wrests away from you.

 

[Senkoro]

Also isn't there a rule about fourth wall stuff like this? Like how the Lord of Nightmares killed her author with a shovel, but it didn't count? But it does with a game file?

 

[Parks_Brit]

Undertale is a meta game with meta themes. Chara was clearly able to pierce the fourth wall, so it's logical that she would have some knowledge about the game and about the player's power and other fourth wall insights.

There is a difference between being meta and simply being superfluous and not making sense. Assuming that something such as the game actually being wiped from your hard drive would need to happen in order to accomplish the same meaning is expecting way too much.

It's been done in games media in the past, it's not exactly a impossible occurence.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Also isn't there a rule about fourth wall stuff like this? Like how the Lord of Nightmares killed her author with a shovel, but it didn't count? But it does with a game file?

Again, this is nothing like that, nor does it have to do with a game file. I would suggest playing Undertale before trying to argue about it, because as I said before, it's really difficult to do unless you understand the structure of the world, the game, and how it works.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

It's been done in games media in the past, it's not exactly a impossible occurence.

That doesn't stop it from not making sense and being superfluous, which is what I said, before. Expecting the game to do so is ridiculous. You can argue it could have or should have been done, but it is far from something that should be expected.

 

[Senkoro]

Think there was a similar case with tier 1-A Sai Akuto, Dark Link said it was too hard to explain to anyone else which was why it was deleted.

 

[Parks_Brit]

It's been done in games media in the past, it's not exactly a impossible occurence.

That doesn't stop it from not making sense and being superfluous, which is what I said, before. Expecting the game to do so is ridiculous. You can argue it could have or should have been done, but it is far from something that should be expected.

The game files are structured in such a way that it has notes adressed to players poking through them, some notes even supposedly written by charecters within the game itself. It's clear that the game and the game files are interconnected in a meta way, so it would have made sense for them to have been deleted upon Chara's attack if they destroyed the game.

 

[Promestein]

DarkLK said he was the only person here who knew how to explain it and that he wasn't going to.

There are multiple people present on this wiki who can explain the Undertale stats.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Think there was a similar case with tier 1-A Sai Akuto, Dark Link said it was too hard to explain to anyone else which was why it was deleted.

Yes...because like one person here had actually read Demon King Daimou, whereas dozens have actually played Undertale, as it is easily accessible.