Chara Dreemurr (Undertale) vs Solaris (Sonic The Hedgehog)

[Alice_Liddel_in_WikiLand]

I was actually debating this with a friend recently. Although the debate was with Asriel instead of Chara. But since he/She is the lowest high tier of Undertale here i though it would be a better match. But lets just get to the point.

Scenario:



In an alternate universe. Mephiles the Dark during the events of Sonic The Hedgehog 06 out of plans. Make a deal with the eldritch horror known as Chara in order to kill Sonic The Hedgehog and awake Iblis. Chara, who was waiting to deal a fatal strike to the world accept the deal and gladly killed Sonic. Making Elise cry as seen in the game and in the processes Iblis awoke. Mephiles then proceed to fuse with Iblis to create Solaris. Although Chara was aware of he nature of Mephiles' plans and the murder of Sonic was just a set up to summon Solaris and take charge of the another big anomaly in the space-time continuum. The God of Time then proceed to turn against the Fallen Child. Seeing that her determination was enough to stop him from consuming time itself.
Rules:

-In character both

-Chara at the end of the genocide run. Therefore her absolute state. Solaris starts in his first form

-Win by death or incap.

Well Then. Lets see how this goes.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Personally, I'd likely give it to Chara. Their raw power seemed to be more impressive than Solaris', and as more of an abstract being they've got an advantage on the defensive side, as well. Top it off with the fact that Solaris didn't show to be very well equipped for combat and I'd say Chara comes out on top.

 

[Alice_Liddel_in_WikiLand]

and as more of an abstract being they've got an advantage on the defensive side, as well.

This was exactly the dead end that my friend and i encounter.

Well. See. Even if Chara manages to destroy Solaris' mind. His body would still be indestructible and he would still be consuming time until nothing has left. And since it was virtually impossible to destroy his body. Elise and Sonic needed to go back through time. But even then it was supossed to be Solaris himself who transported them to the past.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Chara's not exactly a stranger to time powers. However, I'm not sure if they could actually rewind time far enough to the point in which Solaris was...well, a small flame. Regardless, I'm not seeing Solaris really be able to inflict any lasting damage on Chara, whereas that's certainly not the case for the opposite situation.

 

[Squid_peanut]

this is inconclusive due to solaris being unable to kill Chara and Chara being unable to go back in time before they existed

 

[Otakuzoid]

I'm voting for Chara

 

[Drac32Drac]

Does the notion of 'when' the strike took place really even matter for a conceptual being like Chara that can potentially erase the Universe itself(all timelines)... thus giving time no real meaning?

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Does the notion of 'when' the strike took place really even matter for a conceptual being like Chara that can potentially erase the Universe itself(all timelines)... thus giving time no real meaning?

That's the tough part. Solaris is supposed to be a 4-D being, meaning time travel should logically have not had any effect on it, given the fact that it should have just always existed by our standard perception of time and have no real "beginning". Due to the nature of its defeat, it seems more like a basic 3-D being with 4-D levels of power, though it's difficult to determine if this is just massive PIS or not.

 

[The_Everlasting]

It was most likely just massive PIS, considering how he was defeated by three Super Hedgehogs, all of whom have only shown planetary levels of power before and since.

After all, he is the total embodiment of time itself, so he should logically be 4-D.

 

[Drac32Drac]

No, I agree with you. If Solaris were 'fully' 4D then that is exactly what I would expect. Perhaps it's somewhere in between? But we can't really make an adequate determination based upon that... at least not without better justification.

It's just that the very notion that the time of strike would be an obstacle for a being that casually destroys timelines all at once just seems, off somehow.

 

[Alice_Liddel_in_WikiLand]

Does the notion of 'when' the strike took place really even matter for a conceptual being like Chara that can potentially erase the Universe itself(all timelines)... thus giving time no real meaning?

I don't understeand. Are you trying yo say that since Chara can erase timelines she should be able to strike in both past, resent, future and attack/destroy Solaris' original form?

 

[Drac32Drac]

Does the notion of 'when' the strike took place really even matter for a conceptual being like Chara that can potentially erase the Universe itself(all timelines)... thus giving time no real meaning?

I don't understeand. Are you trying yo say that since Chara can erase timelines she should be able to strike in both past, resent, future and attack/destroy Solaris' original form?

Now that I think about it. Yeah. By definition of the feats not only destroying the timelines from that moment on, but also all moments before it, Chara's attacks on Solaris directly should have the same effect. If not normally, then certainly from the 'void' where the feat was demonstrated.

Need I remind everyone that he actually 'attacked' spacetime(yes, the entire 4d verse) and won, instead of using some other hax ability?

I should think that that feat should at least put Chara on the level of being able to damage Solaris.

 

[Ultimatesonic91]

Solaris can only be damaged by supercharged Chaos Powers

 

[The_Everlasting]

Solaris can only be damaged by supercharged Chaos Powers

NLF.

 

[Ultimatesonic91]

Solaris can only be damaged by supercharged Chaos Powers

NLF.

Well its was stated that physical attacks can't damage him and it took super charged chaos powers to damage so its gonna a hard fight here

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Well its was stated that physical attacks can't damage him and it took super charged chaos powers to damage so its gonna a hard fight here

Chara's at their "absolute" here, meaning they're no longer a physical being, but essentially a disembodied conceptual entity.

 

[KennethTL]

If three hedgehogs in their super form who are at least planet level could hold their own and damage solaris, then why cant chara, being multiversal in attack and defense, defeat solaris?

 

[Drac32Drac]

If three hedgehogs in their super form who are at least planet level could hold their own and damage solaris, then why cant chara, being multiversal in attack and defense, defeat solaris?

That also has attacks that affect past, present, and future simultaneously as well. I can't stress that point enough. I see no reason whatsoever why Chara can't just brute force Solaris.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

I see no reason whatsoever why Chara can't just brute force Solaris.

This makes me imagine Chara bullying Solaris into giving them his lunch money on the playground, or something.

 

[Pikachu942]

Inconclusive,, neither has the method to kill each other. Perhaps after an incredibly long period of time Solaris would come out on top from just consuming time and eventually leaving no place left for Chara to exist, but for the most part it is inconclusive. Solaris does not have the strength needed, and Chara does have the strength, but simply cannot realistically destroy all of Solaris across the entirety of reality. Remember, Chara can only destroy one timeline at a time, or 1 multiverse at a time, while Solaris is stated to "eat dimensions for lunch" and exists across all spans of time, implying separate timelines as well from my perspective. Chara just doesn't have the means to put Solaris down for good, but at the same time there is no way Solaris will be able to damage Chara at all.

Though, like I said, if I had to choose a winner, Solaris would eventually win after a VERY long time.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Solaris would come out on top from just consuming time and eventually leaving no place left for Chara to exist,

Chara doesn't need space-time to exist, iirc. In fact, post genocide ending the only thing left in the empty void where the world used to be is Chara (albeit disembodied due to becoming fully conceptual), and the world only returns at their whim.

 

[Drac32Drac]

When Chara destroys everything, the universe didn't just end... it never was in the first place. He wipes it out pretty thoroughly with one slash. For confirmation, when the player attempts to start a new game, essentially going back in time, they are instead greeted with an empty void in which Chara speaks to the player. This is a pretty good indication that he wiped out not just one timeline, but all of them(which is why he says world instead of timeline). If he didn't, then the start of the game should still be there.

Not only should Chara be able to damage Solaris due to that hax, but by raw AP as well.

And Solaris provably can't just eat all of time to get rid of Chara. He has already destroyed time and space and continued to exist.

Unless new arguments are brought forth, I still say Chara takes this.

 

[Drac32Drac]

Also, Chara can stop Solaris from 'feeding' by essentially destroying time itself first. That actually sounds somewhat paradoxical. It makes me wonder that if Chara did that, if it wouldn't outright cause Solaris to cease to exist by itself.

 

[Ultimatesonic91]

Also, Chara can stop Solaris from 'feeding' by essentially destroying time itself first. That actually sounds somewhat paradoxical. It makes me wonder that if Chara did that, if it wouldn't outright cause Solaris to cease to exist by itself.

Chara needs Chaos Energy to inflict damage on Solaris like the Super States did but since she has no acesses to that power how is she gonna damage him huh?

 

[Drac32Drac]

NLF. Chara is a conceptual being... dealing damage conceptually all across time and space. Has Solaris faced that before?

Instead of thinking of it as Chara damaging Solaris with his attacks, think of it more like erasing Solaris' concept from existence from his attacks.

 

[Ultimatesonic91]

NLF. Chara is a conceptual being... dealing damage conceptually all across time and space. Has Solaris faced that before?
Instead of thinking of it as Chara damaging Solaris with his attacks, think of it more like erasing Solaris' concept from existence from his attacks.

You forgot to quote

 

[Ultimatesonic91]

Again unless Chara has Chaos Energy she cant hurt Solaris

 

[The_Everlasting]

Dude, stop using NLF. It's getting obnoxious.

 

[Ultimatesonic91]

Dude, stop using NLF. It's getting obnoxious.

Ok what the hell is NFL

 

[Otakuzoid]

No Limits Fallacy

 

[Drac32Drac]

The gist of the NLF as it applies here is that just because Solaris is claimed to require Chaos Energy to defeat... in his universe... it doesn't mean that other types of damage, notably conceptually damaging him, can't hurt him. Solaris also wasn't faced with a being of Chara's level when that statement was made.

 

[Ultimatesonic91]

The gist of the NLF as it applies here is that just because Solaris is claimed to require Chaos Energy to defeat... in his universe... it doesn't mean that other types of damage, notably conceptually damaging him, can't hurt him. Solaris also wasn't faced with a being of Chara's level when that statement was made.

Show me where energy based attacks other than chaos energy could damage Solaris

 

[Drac32Drac]

Show me where energy based attacks other than chaos energy could damage Solaris

That's not how things work here. You can use it to help support an argument that simple physical attacks won't damage him... but more abstract ideas that were never mentioned one way or the other in the Sonic verse are fair game. Chara isn't shooting lasers or anything so mundane. There is NO mundane explanation that can account for the fact that Chara can destroy EVERYTHING in his universe simultaneously, including the universe itself... past, present, and future... in one slash.

 

[Drac32Drac]

Also, Chara was recently upgraded to Omnipresent in all possible timelines. That pretty well eliminates the 'multiple timelines' counterargument for Solaris... Chara's already there. This upgrade pretty well seals it as a sure win for Chara now.

 

[Ultimatesonic91]

Hello Solaris is Omnipresent as well can do that as well

 

[Drac32Drac]

But Solaris can't really hurt Chara, the reverse isn't strictly true. Also, Solaris is omnipresent across ONE timeline and that doesn't seem to include space, Chara is omnipresent across ALL of them and does include space.

 

[Ultimatesonic91]

Solaris is Omnipresent in past present and future as well and your telling me chara can damage solaris but solaris cant now that is off right there

 

[Drac32Drac]

Just to make it clear... As the profiles currently state, Solaris' durability is listed at Universe+ level, Chara's attack potency is listed at Multiverse level. Chara has good enough AP to overcome Solaris's durability, and has the better Omnipresence to ensure that he can fully strike Solaris. Any way you slice it, Chara wins.

 

[Drac32Drac]

Solaris is Omnipresent in past present and future as well and your telling me chara can damage solaris but solaris cant now that is off right there

Chara is conceptually immortal. And he exists in ALL timelines, not just one. And he doesn't require reality to continue existing. That's a mite better than anything Solaris can boast.

 

[Ultimatesonic91]

Solaris is Omnipresent in past present and future as well and your telling me chara can damage solaris but solaris cant now that is off right there

Chara is conceptually immortal. And he exists in ALL timelines, not just one. And he doesn't require reality to continue existing. That's a mite better than anything Solaris can boast.

same with Solaris