chaos manipulation for turn null users

[Starfeldway]

First with the introduction of what is chaos manipulation by the wiki management:That is, power over disharmony, confusion, disorder, and destructiveness in their most pure and vivid forms. Chaos is opposed to order, it may be related to nonexistence (state of the universe before order or creation), but represents a pure destructive, chaotic, primordial form of everything or it can also be a hodgepodge of everything.

then to my personal statement of what I understand by it: it is being able to manipulate something or anything that causes destructive disorder,this isn't necessarily nothingness although that thing could have non existence....
now about turn null

The ultimate and supreme ability-'Turn Null,' primordial energy needed to create worlds. In the end, it was irreproducible.
Even if he had been able to replicate that ability, he would have to create a world as Veldanava had done, or else the energy would have just run wild and then disappear.
After all, as the name 'Turn Null' suggested, it was a pure, ultra high-density energy that could destroy everything.
It was an extreme ability from another dimension that allowed you to destroy the existing world and create a new one.
It is said that Veldanava created this world and lost 'Turn Null. And what remained after that was the 'Mana Breeder Reactor.'
Veldanava was the most powerful because this ability allowed him to inexhaustibly create mana.

I'll then explain this statement,as turn null is the pure,supreme,primordial energy which existed before the concept of existence,it was a power that's drawn out from a nothingness dimension,which they called nuclear-chaos dimension so as not to call this a name fallacy,it could bring about the destructive force of anything at all in tensura although from this same power can it be able to create order

In nothingness power finds its fill.

That is a holy spirit. The great holy spirit is the source of power.

Among these, light and darkness, the two great spirits.

Who came to exist at the same moment as the world.

But, the world was without form, a ephemeral existence.

Light and shadow, darkness and the light. Two existences that shall never interweave.

One day, the great spirit time was born.

The child of light and darkness.

And thus the world began to move.

The moving world spun, without purpose, around itself.

Inside the flowing currents of life and death,

Earth, Water, Fire, Wind, and Sky–these five great spirits were born.

And since then, these were the great eight spirits.

Until the light consumes the world, erasing darkness,

Until a new spirit is born, erasing all.

Life and death.

Heralding the coming end of the world…”

also explaining this part,veldanava Said to be the holy spirit which created the world-sekai the universe 世界宇宙 the world was still an ephemeral existence-the world was void,still in nothingness until he split himself,which I discussed about.
Turn null brought about the event of the world starting from nothing,it also existed before everything
which means it can destroy light and darkness which existed before the concept of information,existence and time on a 4D conceptual level
it can destroy time
it can destroy power
existence
information and everything that makes up the world and its several parallel universes
,thus energy is also irreversible and irreplaceable

the primordial energy needed to create worlds. In the end, it was irreproducible.
Even if he had been able to replicate that ability, he would have to create a world as Veldanava had done, or else the energy would have just run wild and then disappear.

there was one thing he couldn't recreate and that was turn null,no matter how much he tried the energy would just run amok and dissappear

this entails that turn nulll-the primordial nothingness energy that lacked every form of existence which is one of the requirements,which also lacked order and had traits of randomness in the world,also from another dimension which is said to be chaotic and nuclear in nature,the same energy that is primordial and started off the universe being in void before veldanava split himself,the same energy that can bring about the destruction of the universe-the entire multiverse
also before I get something off.
chaos is said to be something that opposed order and hodgepodge form of everything even tho veldanava didn't use the power to create the great spirits rimuru could-
turn null is chaos in its purest form.
let me be precise that turn null dimension is separate from darkness....as proven as it can destroy even darkness,also it is separate form of nothingness since in nothingness veldanava summoned the energy from another dimension which is described as chaos dimension

Chap 248 :

[As so much time has passed, there is an enormous amount of energy from Turn Null' that has been stored. Veldanava seems to have lost
'Turn Null' when creating the world, but you still have 'Imaginary Space', so there should not be a problem. As 'Imaginary Space' is infinite, it has not become full, but it has been loaded with enough energy to rebuild worlds tens of thousands of times over. If I may add, this means that you can replicate every person you were ever involved with including their memories, you can create a world that is as close as you can possibly get to the world you left. What will you do?]

could recreate the world+everything that was in it.
so for all turn null users which includes rimuru,veldanava and rimuru subordinates who can borrow his turn null could get chaos manipulation

 

[Tempestdragon6]

Agree pretty simple

 

[Starfeldway]

bump

 

[simply]

Agree, this is a simple one.

 

[simply]

@Dread

Bro you cant ping people unless you mod i think

 

[BlackCat]

I agree with this upgrade because of TrunNull's description of Chaos. Manipulation corresponds to each other.

But what I'm curious about is Chaos. Is Manipulation cheating? Because I rarely see people talking about this ability when Vs.

 

[AzuRizzz]

Accepting this would contradict rimuru's NEP

As the CRT suggests that turn null is a chaos energy which previously was accepted as nothingness energy Rimuru can use to his body therefore where the NEP came from

 

[AzuRizzz]

this entails that turn nulll-the primordial nothingness energy that lacked every form of existence which is one of the requirements

The nothingness stated ln chaos manipulation was the state of universe before everything in existence. Not as in literal nothingness in a sense that just doesn't exist but the form of universe before everything was created; chaos and lack of order

 

[AzuRizzz]

Nothingness>chaos>existence and order

 

[Starfeldway]

Accepting this would contradict rimuru's NEP

As the CRT suggests that turn null is a chaos energy which previously was accepted as nothingness energy Rimuru can use to his body therefore where the NEP came from

nah it isn't contradictory to Rimuru's nep if chaos can also be nep

 

[Starfeldway]

The nothingness stated ln chaos manipulation was the state of universe before everything in existence. Not as in literal nothingness in a sense that just doesn't exist but the form of universe before everything was created; chaos and lack of order

yeah?
doesn't contradict my point the universe was born from nothingness,the state of the world when veldanava used turn null was also nothingness

 

[Starfeldway]

Nothingness>chaos>existence and order

and rimuru have all of em

 

[AzuRizzz]

Turn Null as the WN stated is nothingness, a form of pure energy that Veldanava used to create the universe, gave birth to spirits and concept (which is the closest to the order of universe)

Chaos suggests manipulation of randomness, lack of order and destruction.

Turn null indeed can be used for destruction but it was also used to create (which isn't very chaos like because chaos is chaos and turn null brought order through creation)

 

[AzuRizzz]

nah it isn't contradictory to Rimuru's nep if chaos can also be nep

You don't get the point I'm trying to say

 

[AzuRizzz]

Ah, my train of thoughts is gone

 

[AzuRizzz]

Turn Null here is more like void manipulation

Conversion to Existence: The inverse of Existence Erasure. The user may be able to move something from a state of nonexistence to existence, such as reversing the effects of the aforementioned power through their innate control over nothingness

Conversion to Nonexistence: The user of this ability might be capable of turning targets to nothing. This can range from only turning the matter of the target to nothing to also turning things like its energy, mind, soul, space, time and/or concept to nothing.

Manipulation of Nothingness: The primary use of this ability, one's control over a 'nonexistent substance'.

 

[Starfeldway]

Turn Null as the WN stated is nothingness, a form of pure energy that Veldanava used to create the universe, gave birth to spirits and concept (which is the closest to the order of universe)

Chaos suggests manipulation of randomness, lack of order and destruction.

Turn null indeed can be used for destruction but it was also used to create (which isn't very chaos like because chaos is chaos and turn null brought order through creation)

it would be non-dual, since its follow 2 truth states at the same time.

literally said it can both create and destroy,and veldanava didn't use it for the great spirits,rimuru did.

it also follows randomness and destructiveness force didn't you read the OP

there's no argument against non dual power like being both chaos and order

 

[Starfeldway]

Turn Null here is more like void manipulation

Conversion to Existence: The inverse of Existence Erasure. The user may be able to move something from a state of nonexistence to existence, such as reversing the effects of the aforementioned power through their innate control over nothingness

Conversion to Nonexistence: The user of this ability might be capable of turning targets to nothing. This can range from only turning the matter of the target to nothing to also turning things like its energy, mind, soul, space, time and/or concept to nothing.

Manipulation of Nothingness: The primary use of this ability, one's control over a 'nonexistent substance'.

chaos manipulation is what I proved....
I mean rimuru fused it's power to his hand to create some stuff like eternal pain

 

[AzuRizzz]

it also follows randomness and destructiveness force didn't you read the OP

Randomness? You mean turn null energy going amok and disappearing?
That's because Yuuki can't control it, he lacks the ability for it.

But rimuru can.

If that's the point then shouldn't Beelzebub get chaos manipulation too? If ran amok it'll destroy everything including time.

 

[Peak]

Turn Null as the WN stated is nothingness, a form of pure energy that Veldanava used to create the universe, gave birth to spirits and concept (which is the closest to the order of universe)

Chaos suggests manipulation of randomness, lack of order and destruction.

Turn null indeed can be used for destruction but it was also used to create (which isn't very chaos like because chaos is chaos and turn null brought order through creation)

hmmm I have no knowledge about chaos manipulation but that makes sense to me for now, but I'll stay neutral

 

[Starfeldway]

Randomness? You mean turn null energy going amok and disappearing?
That's because Yuuki can't control it, he lacks the ability for it.

But rimuru can.

If that's the point then shouldn't Beelzebub get chaos manipulation too? If ran amok it'll destroy everything including time.

you can control randomness via manas pretty sure veldanava didn't...
for the fact he lost its power to be able to anyways...
yuuki could recreate beelzebuth but not turn null,and turn null is like seperate nothingness and darkness power
like I said
irreproducible
irreversible power of chaos the turn null dimension

 

[Starfeldway]

you can control randomness via manas pretty sure veldanava didn't...
for the fact he lost its power to be able to anyways...
yuuki could recreate beelzebuth but not turn null,and turn null is like seperate nothingness and darkness power
like I said
irreproducible
irreversible power of chaos the turn null dimension

the power of turn null ain't random cuz it run amok
it's random cuz if you try to copy it or control it,it then run amok

 

[ImmortalDread]

This is not chaos manipulation, it is either NEP or chaos. Choose from both.

 

[Starfeldway]

This is not chaos manipulation, it is either NEP or chaos. Choose from both.

the description it can be both

That is, power over disharmony, confusion, disorder, and destructiveness in their most pure and vivid forms. Chaos is opposed to order, it may be related to nonexistence (state of the universe before order or creation), but represents a pure destructive, chaotic, primordial form of everything or it can also be a hodgepodge of everything.

 

[ImmortalDread]

No, it can't. Chaos and darkness and nothingness are all different. If you say it is nothingness and Chaos, and it shows the former, so it is NEP for Rimuru.
I have no clue, are you trying to downgrade Rimuru? + You used the same scans over and over again.

 

[Peak]

the description it can be both

Guretodesu already answered about this

 

[Starfeldway]

No, it can't. Chaos and darkness and nothingness are all different. If you say it is nothingness and Chaos, and it shows the former, so it is NEP for Rimuru.
I have no clue, are you trying to downgrade Rimuru? + You used the same scans over and over again.

it just said it can be non existence I literally read this entire thing
nothingness isn't always nep are you even aware?

 

[ImmortalDread]

I disagree with this CRT. The OP has no clue what is chaos manipulation even means. Turn Null is a destruction feat. Nowhere it manipulates chaos.

 

[Peak]

As Guretodesu said, nothingness was only chaotic because it was uncontrollable, Ciel was able to control (literally the description of turn null), so it doesn't really sound like chaos manipulation, saying it is chaos manipulation would be contradictory since Rimuru never used chaos as an attack, but nothingness

 

[ImmortalDread]

it just said it can be non existence I literally read this entire thing
nothingness isn't always nep are you even aware?

NEP 1 is nonexistence. lol

 

[Starfeldway]

I disagree with this CRT. The OP has no clue what is chaos manipulation even means. Turn Null is a destruction feat. Nowhere it manipulates chaos.

OK.
it actually manipulates chaos tho

 

[Peak]

Chaos has to be chaotic by nature, there is no way to control chaos

 

[ImmortalDread]

OK.
it actually manipulates chaos tho

No. Chaos DESTRUCTION and MANIPULATION are different. In your context, there is no manipulation, rather it says it can be destructive in nature. Which ofc is self-explanatory?

I can't believe you use the same scans, nothing new, and try to contradict Rimuru NEP.

 

[Starfeldway]

No. Chaos DESTRUCTION and MANIPULATION are different. In your context, there is no manipulation, rather it says it can be destructive in nature. Which ofc is self-explanatory?

I can't believe you use the same scans, nothing new, and try to contradict Rimuru NEP.

alright

 

[ImmortalDread]

I will request closing the thread, I talked with OP privately and he agreed with it.

 

[Starfeldway]

alright then
it was all a misunderstanding you can close the thread then.