Cell vs Doomsday

[Paulo.junior.969]

Problem with saying Gohan did it with AoE and AP would be that it's implying Gohan would be millions of times stronger than Cell to vaporize him, which is factually untrue from every source.

The millions of times is just an estimation using real life values, verses aren't obligated to follow it, so not all vapirizations in fiction need to have a gap this big, it generally varies from verse to verse and from scene to scene.

 

[Paulo.junior.969]

Basically, if you're as strong as the Father Son Kamehameha and have enough AoE, you can get rid of Cell because that was AP gap required to do so in canon.

 

[Axl233]

Bump.

 

[Akreious]

Basically, if you're as strong as the Father Son Kamehameha and have enough AoE, you can get rid of Cell because that was AP gap required to do so in canon.

Except that gap isn't quantifiable nor reasonable whatsoever.

By that standard, a character that is noted to be unable to vaporize an opponent due to not having enough AP to defeat another character in their verse despite their difference being millions, would instantly be able to defeat Cell because he has a larger AP advantage right?

No, it doesn't work like that. A Regen doesn't have some arbitrary or magical AP cap before an otherwise normal attack would vaporize you. I repeat myself, feat for Son Gohan (SS2). Not anti-feat for Cell. Son Gohan was able to overpower Cell's regen; feat for Son Gohan. Not Anti-Feat for Cell.

"The millions of times is just an estimation using real life values, verses aren't obligated to follow it, so not all vapirizations in fiction need to have a gap this big, it generally varies from verse to verse and from scene to scene."

Agreed, so verses should follow their own standard and values for Vaporizations. If one verse is unable to vaporize with an AP gap of a thousand but another verse is able to with an AP gap of less than 2x, that's an aspect and thing for the 2nd verse. The 1st verse would still be unable to Vaporize characters from the 2nd verse even if they had a larger AP advantage simply because we don't verse equalize like such. All we know is that the 2nd verse has a lower roof for someone being able to vaporize something.

"It makes perfect sense. Ki blast can disintegrate if powerful enough. No duh. This has been the case since Rossi first showed it off. It's not an aspect of ki. It's an aspect of AP. Ki isn't hax. All you're doing is explaining every energy source in fiction."

Except you missed my point entirely. It's BECAUSE that Dragon Ball characters from such an early point in time has shown the capacity to disintegrate that I say that it isn't purely an AP thing. And even if it were, these are feats for the characters, not a weakness for people who are defeated by said characters.

If Dragon Ball characters are capable of showing Vaporization by being stronger than an opponent (Although not stomping), that's their ability to do so. This should not translate to other characters from other Verses who have never displayed such.

Also your assertion that Ki isn't hax and that it's any other energy source almost completely ignores every time it countered hax, blasted through hax, and the variations of it that are haxxed to oblivion. Ki very clearly has capabilities beyond simply enhancing one's strength and the basic skill sets we see. Just because we see it used in a more simplistic manner says nothing about it's nature.

Let's see:

A Chakra based attack has never displayed the ability to disintegrate an enemy besides many a select few used by very few characters.

However if I give this Naruto character a high AP advantage against Cell, what you would be saying is that this Chakra user would be able to overpower Cell's Low-High regen simply because Cell was defeated by a peer in his own verse. That's your logic being used right now. Despite this Naruto Character never displaying such capabilities ever nor was hinted at this feat even being within the realm of possibility of any normal Chakra-based attack.

"Dzhindzholia The latter is also not true."

How does this disprove Ki Blasts being capable of atomization (Well I was more fighting for Disintegration but okay)?

In fact, all that means was that Freeza was alive after being cut to pieces by Trunks and since the Dragon can only bring back their body as they were prior to their death/when they were alive, Freeza would be in literal pieces (Which is why they had to used a healing tank to literally piece him back together).

This was never a problem for characters such as Yamcha (Who got suicide bombed but had a intact body so he came back fine), Goku (Body can be assumed to be completely destroyed and as such, his state prior to his death would be an intact full body), Chiaotzu (Again, suicide-bombed Nappa and no body was found after. Meaning state prior to death would be an intact body), Piccolo (Died from wounds in the Saiyan Saga, so the state prior to his death/the thing that caused it would be an intact body) and everyone revived on Earth after Buu Saga (Everyone pretty much got dusted so their states prior to their deaths would, again, be an intact body).

 

[Paulo.junior.969]

By that standard, a character that is noted to be unable to vaporize an opponent due to not having enough AP to defeat another character in their verse despite their difference being millions, would instantly be able to defeat Cell because he has a larger AP advantage right?

Yes.

 

[Akreious]

That was a sarcastic statement.

I'll just leave this segment of my wall here:

"Agreed, so verses should follow their own standard and values for Vaporizations. If one verse is unable to vaporize with an AP gap of a thousand but another verse is able to with an AP gap of less than 2x, that's an aspect and thing for the 2nd verse. The 1st verse would still be unable to Vaporize characters from the 2nd verse even if they had a larger AP advantage simply because we don't verse equalize like such. All we know is that the 2nd verse has a lower roof for someone being able to vaporize something."

 

[Paulo.junior.969]

Yeah, they follow their own values, with the value required to vaporize Cell being significantly above 1.053 KiloFOE to an unknown degree (without counting him getting zenkai boosts, of course, then the value would go up due to his durability going up), because that's how strong the attack that destroyed him was.

 

[MrKingOfNegativity]

What other people see.


What I see.

 

[Akreious]

For gods sake Paulo listen to yourself. You say one thing and then immediately say something else with no real correlation.

If a character has not displayed the capacity to Vaporize an enemy with a larger AP gap, they cannot do so here. Following their own Vaporization Value, they simply aren't capable of doing so.

Son Gohan has displayed the ability to vaporize with a much lesser AP gap, meaning that in his verse, you can Vaporize with a lower AP value. This will not translate to other verses since it's an aspect and feature of their own verse, not others. Verse Equalization does not cover this.

Son Gohan would be capable of vaporizing with much less than other characters because he has shown the capacity to do so. You're giving Cell an arbitrary weakness not supported.

With my stance, you at least have a manga panel and a Daizenshuu page supporting the argument. With yours, you have to ignore those and just assume that a slight AP gap above your AP in Dragon Ball would make you weaker than jello seeing as you evaporate into stray atoms.

"with the value required to vaporize Cell being significantly above 1.053 KiloFOE to an unknown degree (without counting him getting zenkai boosts, of course, then the value would go up due to his durability going up)"

This is contrary to what you're saying Paulo. You agreed with me that characters follow their own values, so if a character has not shown the ability to vaporize with significantly higher gaps and values, then they cannot do it.

Characters that did show vaporization despite having lower gaps and values would be capable of doing so with enemies of a similar level because they follow their own Vaporization Values.

 

[Paulo.junior.969]

They follow their own standards, and the standard for Cell is being vaporized with a lower AP gap; that's how Cell works in canon.

 

[MrKingOfNegativity]

Assuming I'm reading this right...

If one character gets vaporized by something energy or fire based in their series (or whatever other equivalent)

And another character who has fire or energy attacks has shown AP far stronger than what vaporized the first character

Then character 1 gets vaporized by character 2.

Common sense

 

[Paulo.junior.969]

Yeah.

 

[Akreious]

They follow their own standards, and the standard for Cell is being vaporized with a lower AP gap; that's how Cell works in canon.

They follow their own standards, and the Standard for Vaporization in the Dragon Ball verse is a lower AP gap; so Cell's Low-High failed against a stronger attack. That's how it works in Canon.

Again, I have one Manga panel and a Daizenshuu Magazine supporting my stance. You need to provide evidence that it's an explicit Cell weakness that simply being a little stronger is able to allow you to overpower his regen.

 

[Paulo.junior.969]

Cell's Low-High failed against a stronger attack because that's how Cell's Low-High works, that's Cell's standard; stronger than the Father Son Kamehameha = ded.

The value would probably go up with zenkai, and I don't think Doomsday starts with firebreath, so Cell might still have a chance.

 

[Akreious]

Assuming I'm reading this right...
If one character gets vaporized by something energy or fire based in their series (or whatever other equivalent)

And another character who has fire or energy attacks has shown AP far stronger than what vaporized the first character

Then character 1 gets vaporized by character 2.

Common sense

• • • Internally screaming***

Okay. Already addressed this a million times but whatever.

Character A gets vaporized by someone stronger in their verse. These generic energy blasts has displayed the capacity to do so multiple times throughout the series with only a small but not insignificant difference in AP.

Character B is in a verse where the AP is crazy for coconuts. However they have never displayed the capacity for Vaporization nor shows any hints of being able to do so. Sometimes worse, they flat out say they can't do such a feat.

Then, as stated above by Paulo, these characters follow their own Vaporization Values as this changes from verse to verse and scene to scene.

Character A and people in their verse has the ability to Vaporize enemies with a smaller gap in AP because they have simply displayed the ability to do so. On multiple occasions. This is a value and thing that happens in their verse.

Character B, despite being significantly stronger than their enemies and existing in a verse with larger AP values, has never once vaporized anything and worse-case scenario, flat out said they couldn't do it.

that's my stance. I also on multiple occasions argued that bypassing Cell's regen wasn't 100% an AP thing like you guys keep saying it is. Ki on it's own has long displayed large supernatural abilities, showing abilities like Intangibility, blocking said Intangibility, EE Resistance, Teleportation, Bypassing dimensional barriers, Attacking one point in space and having the resulting energy come out in another point, and breaking through Time Stop, and Vaporization is what you can't believe is another special case for Ki?

Edit:

"Cell's Low-High failed against a stronger attack because that's how Cell's Low-High works, that's Cell's standard; stronger than the Father Son Kamehameha = ded."

Cell's Low-High failed against a stronger Ki Attack in a verse where being stronger has allowed you to destroy an enemy to a higher degree than Low-High. You keep saying that's how Cell's Low-High regen works. Prove it to me. Show me scans where Cell says someone stronger would overpower his Regen like that. Show me a Daizenshuu page that says Cell died because his Regen couldn't beat someone of a stronger AP.

Cell's Regen Standard is "Failed against an attack that is in the same vein as other attacks in the verse that has shown such feats with much less".

"The value would probably go up with zenkai, and I don't think Doomsday starts with firebreath, so Cell might still have a chance."

From the cartoons and a few comics I've read, DD starts by bullrushing Supes unless Supes himself opens with Heat Vision which DD would counter back. Although this is iffy since people right now are also advocating that DD's punch would vaporize Cell >_>

 

[MrKingOfNegativity]

Except that that isn't how it works.

If Cell's regen failed against something weaker than what Doomsday brings to the table AP-wise, then it fails against Doomsday, because Cell doesn't have the feats to say otherwise.

Common sense.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

All of that was from Super so idk why you're saying "has long displayed."

 

[Paulo.junior.969]

Ki doesn't grant "the ability to vaporize the opponent with only a small AP gap" (if you think it does, go add that ability in every DBZ character's page), it just happens that the AP required to bypass Cell's Regen is lower than the real life AP that would be required for vaporization, so to vaporize Cell, you just have to be significantly stronger than him, instead of the millions of times stronger that would be required normally.

That's the value that was required to vaporize Cell in canon, and as I've said, the characters follow their own values, therefore: stronger than the Father Son Kamehameha = ded.

 

[Paulo.junior.969]

Anyway, if Cell gets hit by Doomsday's fire breath or other AoE attacks, Cell would be done for, but I don't think Doomsday starts with those (correct me if I'm wrong), and if Doomday blows Cell up a few times, he could probably get closer to Doomsday's level with zenkai, so there's that.

 

[MrKingOfNegativity]

I guess I might as well say my piece on this while I'm here...

From what I see, it seems like the entire argument for Cell boils down to "Doomsday beats him into the ground until he Zenkai's to victory", which is such a flimsy argument that I really don't even know where to start.

In a reasonable scenario, Cell likely gets 1-2 chances to Zenkai before Doomsday switches to burning him instead of punching him in the face. Particularly because Doomsday is the character in DC when it comes to "coming back from shit that should kill you" and will assuredly recognize that Cell coming back from one thing doesn't necessarily mean he can come back from another.

And even if Cell gets to Zenkai a whole bunch of times due to Doomsday conveniently being stupid for the sake of this matchup, well, Doomsday has his own similar amping system thanks to his adaptation, and depending on the situation, it can get to the point where every single step he takes doubles his power.

As for surviving being burned once Doomsday inevitably uses his fire breath on him, Cell has no feats to support him living through that, especially if Doomsday's own self-amps start kicking in.

 

[Paulo.junior.969]

Meh, I guess that makes sense. So it seems like Doomsday just punches a few times, realizes he's regenerating and then fire breathes him.

 

[MrKingOfNegativity]

[removed]

I'm not gonna lie, I laughed pretty hard at this. But you can't post stuff like this here. Sorry.

 

[Schnee_One]

Perfect Cells legit only win con is grabbing to BFR.

Which is not going to happen before Doomsday mauls

Doomsday for all the reasons stated if this isn't a curbstomp

 

[MrKingOfNegativity]

I would think it's a stomp, to be perfectly honest. 90% of the most reasonable scenarios are just Doomsday mopping the street with Cell until he decides to use his fire breath, and getting stronger all the while because that's just how his physiology works.

This isn't even going into the fact that if Cell gets hit with any of Doomsday's bone spikes, he'll have to deal with poison on top of everything else.

 

[Schnee_One]

In this case

Kill it, and remove Cells match with Hulk

 

[A_Stoned_Orc]

[removed]

I'm not gonna lie, I laughed pretty hard at this. But you can't post stuff like this here. Sorry.

Now I really want to know what it said. >_>

 

[MrKingOfNegativity]

You'll be alright.

 

[MrKingOfNegativity]

Also...

In this case
Kill it, and remove Cells match with Hulk

[after going and reading through that thread]
...Why do you people let things like this get past the radar?

 

[Schnee_One]

They don't, they think it's genuinely valid.

I tried to get that removed twice and people said "It's not enough AP"

And the guy at the end who said his stamina wouldn't run out because its superior to androids even though Cells file explicitly states that's false

 

[MrKingOfNegativity]

 

[Schnee_One]

KILL IT

KILL IT

 

[Akreious]

All of that was from Super so idk why you're saying "has long displayed."

Because no opponent in OG DBZ and DB had... much hax? And most of it was used on peer enemies so there's never a chance to display Ki giving one resistance?

Btw important bit will be entirely bolded so skip down if you don't want to hear all this.

Ginyu used hax against peer enemies so there was no chance to resist with Ki.

Guldo's Timestop is somewhat unique in that while he was outclassed, he still displayed enough speed to keep up with Krillin and Gohan who dominated him in sheer strength. TK in Dragon Ball also deals with AP (As you have to exert more force on the enemy than they are themselves) so there's an argument to be made that Krillin and Gohan, again, wasn't powerful enough to overpower said hax.

Devilmite Beam has showed up once and had a clear reason why it didn't work so can't really say anything about that.

Mafuuba is a hax that can actually backfire let alone be resisted. Every use of it has the opponents being surprised and sucked away with a surprised face (Meaning they had no time to try and resist/flare up their Ki in the case with the Hakai Ball), and in the ToP, when it was attempted twice on Frost, it was reversed on Roshi because Frost had more Ki.

Buu's Candy Beam was used on much weaker enemies and the one time it was used on a peer was when they themselves had a magic item that allowed them to retain their consciousness.

In non-canon territory, there's Stardust Breaker that can destroy souls. Just... yeah. You can see why most of it is in DBS since DBZ and DB didn't really deal with Hax and the few times they did, it was on enemies who were weaker or were peers so Ki Resistance and Hax with Ki goes out the window.

"Except that that isn't how it works.

If Cell's regen failed against something weaker than what Doomsday brings to the table AP-wise, then it fails against Doomsday, because Cell doesn't have the feats to say otherwise.

Common sense."

Cell's regen failed against someone in a verse where Vaporization occurs more often with less AP than other verses. Freeza in the Daizenshuu was stated to have been reduced to atoms, King Piccolo claimed his attack would've reduced Goku to atoms. [Also Cell's death was actually pretty dragged out], having enough time to scream that he's invincible in the panel prior and that he couldn't believe it, he can't die.

Then again I'm not sure why we're arguing this and not putting up Cell's death to PIS like most of Dragon Ball that makes no sense. My question would be has Doomsday ever displayed the capacity to damage things on the Cellular level? Because unlike this discussion, it is canon that Cell can regenerate from small stray cells after his body is destroyed. Vaporization or not, AP or not, Cell can regenerate from his cells.

Plus accepting that Cell's regen can be overpowered by AP like that would mean that every Dragon Ball character in the series, the moment they're outclassed, would be Vaporized by anyone stronger. Someone with a 3x AP advantage against Goku could blast him once and rather than tanking it and coming out with some damage, he'd be vaporized completely. See how I absolutely can't accept this?

This literally only ever came up because DD was noted as being unable to bypass Low-High. Cell's Regen was overpowered by a bunch of unknowns by a thing that is clearly not only "Just another power source" and is very much exotic in manner.

"Ki doesn't grant "the ability to vaporize the opponent with only a small AP gap" (if you think it does, go add that ability in every DBZ character's page)"

"subjective" small. Unless you think that Cell really does get vaporized by a >=2x AP Advantage and that Dragon Ball characters turn into less than jelly the moment they get overpowered.

"it just happens that the AP required to bypass Cell's Regen is lower than the real life AP that would be required for vaporization"

You're asserting that the value for Vaporization in the DB universe is around 2x your enemy. That's not only completely asinine, but if accepted, an absolutely massive complete downgrade for the entire verse. Hell if this actually is accepted, on every page there should be in the weakness "a 2x AP advantage would vaporize them".

"so to vaporize Cell, you just have to be significantly stronger than him, instead of the millions of times stronger that would be required normally."

Except this applies to all DB characters, not only Cell. You're, as of right now, saying all DB characters get vaporized by opponents 2x stronger than them or more.

"From what I see, it seems like the entire argument for Cell boils down to "Doomsday beats him into the ground until he Zenkai's to victory", which is such a flimsy argument that I really don't even know where to start."

"Intelligence: Doomsday is capable of instinctively processing information extremely quickly, though he is simple-minded for the most part."

I wonder where people got that Doomsday isn't the most intelligent fighter?

"In a reasonable scenario, Cell likely gets 1-2 chances to Zenkai before Doomsday switches to burning him instead of punching him in the face. Particularly because Doomsday is thecharacter in DC when it comes to "coming back from shit that should kill you" and will assuredly recognize that Cell coming back from one thing doesn't necessarily mean he can come back from another."

Again, look at the Intelligence value above. Also Cell, while liking a good fight, absolutely hates it when enemies are stronger than he is. Raged against Gohan, tried to Suicide bomb him, and died in utter disbelief that he somehow lost. He'd have absolutely no qualms with IT-ing DD into the Afterlife after the "1-2 chances" of regenerating.

"And even if Cell gets to Zenkai a whole bunch of times due to Doomsday conveniently being stupid for the sake of this matchup, well, Doomsday has his own similar amping system thanks to his adaptation, and depending on the situation, it can get to the point where every single step he takes doubles his power."

(Cough Intelligence value above cough). If DD allows Cell to get to his level, he gets absorbed which stacks DD's AP on top of Cell's own. Sure he'd come back of which Cell would be in, again, disbelief and try to get DD out of here as soon as he physically can. Hence the IT BFR to... anywhere else.

"As for surviving being burned once Doomsday inevitably uses his fire breath on him, Cell has no feats to support him living through that, especially if Doomsday's own self-amps start kicking in."

Why would Cell tank it? If he's been splattered once or twice, he wouldn't be taking any attacks if he can help it. Plus he has IT so it's not like he's out of mobility options. He also has flight which is a major knock against DD.

Pretty sure one of the arguments was that Cell planet busted and just left DD floating in space as well. DD doesn't die so he has nothing to "survive" and "evolve" from and Cell could just... go do his own thing. Maybe send a Ki blast to move DD through space and out of the System.

"Meh, I guess that makes sense. So it seems like Doomsday just punches a few times, realizes he's regenerating and then fire breathes him."

I feel like we went from discussing a way the battle could go to completely forgetting the other scenarios that people said would also happen.

"Perfect Cells legit only win con is grabbing to BFR.

Which is not going to happen before Doomsday mauls

Doomsday for all the reasons stated if this isn't a curbstomp"

BFR would also count when Cell planet busts. DD has no flight so he'd be stuck floating in space and would be limited to leaps from leaping off of stray asteroids. Which, as noted above and isn't contested at all actually, very much IC for Cell who tried to Planet-bust at significantly less powerful enemies.

 

[Huesito88]

BURN THE MATCH!

 

[Paulo.junior.969]

I have no idea where you got 2x from, like, for real, you made up that number out of nowhere.

 

[Akreious]

I have no idea where you got 2x from, like, for real, you made up that number out of nowhere.

Cell was slightly overpowering Gohan.

Gohan was, by his own admission, only outputting about 50% of his maximum output.

Goku gave Gohan a push so that he unleashed his total 100%.

As Gohan a 50% was contesting Cell, a 100% Gohan would be around 2x Cell's maximum output.

Said 100% Gohan's output was the thing that vaporized Cell.

This was brought up roughly 2-3x in this thread before me?

 

[DragonEmperor23]

heres proof that Cell beats Doomsday


you're welcome

this is jiren ****, delete

 

[Paulo.junior.969]

Really? I thought Gohan was way more powerful than 2x; Omg, Cell's Regen freaking sucks.

 

[Schnee_One]

Really? I thought Gohan was way more powerful than 2x; Omg, Cell's Regen freaking sucks.

In this case

"Cell, where is my money"

"Doomsday I got you man the money is coming through"

"I SAID WHERES THE MONEY?!" (Pimp Slaps)

Cell: (Dies)

 

[Akreious]

Really? I thought Gohan was way more powerful than 2x; Omg, Cell's Regen freaking sucks.

That's why I'm fighting you so hard on Cell's Regen and saying that it isn't an AP thing. Ki has displayed exotic properties on multiple fronts and it isn't completely unreasonable to say that the Vaporization of Cell would be a feat of Ki, not a weakness of his regen.

Also this won't only apply to Cell's regen Paulo. Cell being vaporized by Gohan with only a 2x AP advantage would apply to the entire verse. Which is, again, why I'm fighting you so hard on this.

 

[MrKingOfNegativity]

"Intelligence: Doomsday is capable of instinctively processing information extremely quickly, though he is simple-minded for the most part."
I wonder where people got that Doomsday isn't the most intelligent fighter?

Again, look at the Intelligence value above.

(Cough Intelligence value above cough).

Alternatively, you could read the scan posted above about how he adapted to gain sentience and think properly, and isn't the brute he started off as.

Or you could just pick up and read some comics instead of doing the debater's equivalent of throwing haymakers and hoping one lands.

Also Cell, while liking a good fight, absolutely hates it when enemies are stronger than he is. Raged against Gohan, tried to Suicide bomb him, and died in utter disbelief that he somehow lost.

So instead of BFRing like you've said, it's much more in-character to suicide-bomb someone who's stronger than he is. I'll make a note of that next time I feel like listing off the reasons why Cell dies here.

Gohan was, by his own admission, only outputting about 50% of his maximum output.
Goku gave Gohan a push so that he unleashed his total 100%.

As Gohan a 50% was contesting Cell, a 100% Gohan would be around 2x Cell's maximum output.

Said 100% Gohan's output was the thing that vaporized Cell.