Castlevania- I don't like the Acausuality type 4

[Phsccarvalho]

Hello.

Small additions below.

Spoiler: Dracula gains Empowerment

Dracula gains Empowerment
First let's take a look at this scan. As you can see, it is not just another justification for Dracula's power increasing with each resurrection, but also the existence of this evil side/will acting on his behalf.

From what I saw on the page, Empowerment is about something that the user has no control over. Dracula has no control if someone tries to revive him through a ritual.

Spoiler: Juste Belmont gains Creatures of Chaos

Juste Belmont gains Creatures of Chaos
Honestly, just because the summoned things are called monsters, that would be enough. Since in Castlevania, monsters are Creatures of Chaos. But I will also post another scan to prove this.

This scan says that the creatures summoned by Juste came from the Nether World, that is, they are Creatures of Chaos.

Mid-level addition

Spoiler: Death and Vampires Soul Hax

It is said that Death and Vampires can take people's souls.

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Elephant in the room.
Another crt trying to add this...

I don't really like this skill on the wiki, because the description of it on the page seems very vague when it comes to standards. It doesn't help much that the two example characters used on the page have small justifications and no scans/references for Acausality.

Anyway, I made this new justification, and asked a staff about directly quoting causality. So I'm putting it here with other things.

Acausality (Type 4;  Immortal beings ignore the passage of time and disrupt the flow of time, with their souls being free from time. Life, even though it is artificial, is subject to the laws of time, and fate is a truth wounded by time)

• Resistance to Time Manipulation, Fate Manipulation and Law Manipulation

If this is accepted, it will go to the page for chaos creatures and other immortals.

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Votes
Agree: (1;0) @Theglassman12

Neutral: (0;0)

Disagree: (0;1) @Sonoftanavast9 (Apparently just with acausuality)

 

[Theglassman12]

Looks pretty good, though any other staff who can verify if this can work for Acausality would be preferred.

 

[Sonoftanavast9]

Acausality (Type 4;  Immortal beings ignore the passage of time and disrupt the flow of time, with their souls being free from time. Life, even though it is artificial, is subject to the laws of time, and fate is a truth wounded by time)

I completely disagree with this... The dialogue used here are is more that likely just flowery. My reason for that is the following.

The Ignoring and free from time stuff is flowery language for not aging [Almost all the Immortals have lines saying they are subject to the laws of time]​

"Immortal one, you have ignored the passage of time long enough."

Your soul is free from time, yet this is your best

The text above can be said by Aeon before/after fighting Alucard, Carmilla, Death, Golem, or Dracula:

"Even artificial life is subject to the laws of time."

This text is a comment made by Aeon specifically to Golem - [I cannot fathom how this was ignored]

This obviously makes the implication that the first text is supposed to imply Immortals possess some form of acausality while the later is supposed to show that all other life is subject to laws of time completely nonsensical. The fact that this is the case makes it very obvious that the "Immortals ignoring the passage of time" is just a flowery way of saying they don't age because Golem who this applies to is explicitly subject to the laws of time.

"Your quest for eternal beauty is doomed: nothing withstands time."

Further more, Aeon makes this comment toward Carmilla - Another Immortals he says the "Ignore the passage of time" line to.

Obvious if he meant she was acausal with the first scan he wouldn't say this to her

"You govern the fate of death. But even fate is a truth wound by time."

Aeon makes this comment toward Death - [Again I cannot fathom how you managed to ignore the fact that the scan you used to justify other being bound by time is literally talking about one of the immortals]

Obviously the implication being that death is bound by time

"Even the Lord of Darkness cannot withstand time."

Aeon makes this comment towards Dracula - Again one of the immortals he says the first two lines to

​

The funniest part is that in all the scan he is literally using time hax on them with 0 issue....

Edit-

Immortals disrupt the flow of Time, don't you see

To add to this "Disrupting the flow of time" above is completely vague with no explanation or clarification that would make it actually relevant in qualifying for acausality (+ it falls into the category of the other scans in that he says it to people like Golem/death/carmilla/dracula who again are explicitly bound by time) and further more it's more than likely flowery at best since Aeon says something similar to Maria

"I cannot allow that which would disrupt the flow of time"

And before anyone tries to says something like, "Well that just means magic is acausal for disrupting the flow of time since Maria uses magic" Aeon specifically says the following about Magic and time to Sypha

"No matter how powerful the magic you wield, you will never surpass time"

 

[Phsccarvalho]

The Ignoring and free from time stuff is flowery language for not aging [Almost all the Immortals have lines saying they are subject to the laws of time]​

All these characters being creatures of chaos, who are already naturally resistant to time manipulation, receiving statements about being outside/interrupting time would be flowery for exactly what reason?

You even ignored Aeon telling everyone that they disrupt the flow of time, a statement that is used for when a character actually affects time in some way. For example, the Time Reaper is about to destroy the universes.

This text is a comment made by Aeon specifically to Golem - [I cannot fathom how this was ignored]

This obviously makes the implication that the first text is supposed to imply Immortals possess some form of acausality while the later is supposed to show that all other life is subject to laws of time completely nonsensical. The fact that this is the case makes it very obvious that the "Immortals ignoring the passage of time" is just a flowery way of saying they don't age because Golem who this applies to is explicitly subject to the laws of time.

Besides the fact that again you repeated the flowery language without any solid proof.

Why would this refer to just the Golem? Aeon says "Even artificial life", you know, "even". He is not saying that it is just artificial life but life in general and that this is no exception to artificial life.

Further more, Aeon makes this comment toward Carmilla - Another Immortals he says the "Ignore the passage of time" line to.

Obvious if he meant she was acausal with the first scan he wouldn't say this to her

So your problem is contradiction? Firstly, he is talking about eternal beauty, not immortality itself.

Second, contradiction is not really a good argument considering the following.

Acasualty does not make any character immune to time manipulation, causality, etc. It just makes them follow other rules for this.

All sentences about immortals and time are made normally, casually. Phrases like this one from Carmilla, is made during Aeon's final power, a time stop that works on beings with conceptual resistance to it, he is saying this type of phrase when his ability actually works on the enemy.

Aeon makes this comment toward Death - [Again I cannot fathom how you managed to ignore the fact that the scan you used to justify other being bound by time is literally talking about one of the immortals]

Obviously the implication being that death is bound by time

None of this implies that death is tied to time.

Aeon is just saying that the power of death under the fate of death is under time, and not that the character itself is. Not unlike that timeless person's main form of power is manipulating time, the character is not under the control of time but his power can be linked.

Aeon makes this comment towards Dracula - Again one of the immortals he says the first two lines to

​

The funniest part is that in all the scan he is literally using time hax on them with 0 issue....

The contradiction again.

Again, type 4 Acausality does not make someone immune to time. Characters with this may be susceptible to time.

All of these characters resist the power of time on a conceptual level.

Hell, in that same game Dracula tells Aeon that time and destiny are meaningless to him.

The fact that Aeon's TS works only means that it works in type 4 cases, especially when we have the countless declarations from Aeon himself, the decraction of Dracula and the general resistance that these characters already have to time.

This TS that Aeon uses is his final attack to use.

 

[Sonoftanavast9]

All these characters being creatures of chaos, who are already naturally resistant to time manipulation, receiving statements about being outside/interrupting time would be flowery for exactly what reason?

Because they are all according to Aeon Bound by time one way or another and in your own explanation of the acausality the scan you yourself use to explain that other things which aren't the immortals are bound by time are scans of Aeon saying what amounts to "These guys are bound by time".

You even ignored Aeon telling everyone that they disrupt the flow of time, a statement that is used for when a character actually affects time in some way. For example, the Time Reaper is about to destroy the universes.

I editted that in at the end already

Besides the fact that again you repeated the flowery language without any solid proof.

Why would this refer to just the Golem? Aeon says "Even artificial life", you know, "even". He is not saying that it is just artificial life but life in general and that this is no exception to artificial life.

The proof is that he literally says what amounts to "Golem you are bound by the laws of time" after saying "Immortals ignore the flow of time"/"Your soul is free from time" which for anyone who isn't being willfully ignorant cannot be read as acausality when paired with the other statement thus since these statements are more specifically made with inclusion to their immortality the logical conclusion is that Aeon means to say that they won't die with the passage of time (aka not aging) rather than that they are acausal.

Golem is an artificial being who gained sentience from being in the Time rift so while Aeon is sating this to Golem - I never said it's only applicable to Golem or even that he's saying the laws of time are only applicable to artificial life rather than all life.

What I am saying is that since it is clearly said about Golem he cannot be acausal because he is EXPLICITLY BOUND BY THE LAWS OF TIME and that since all the other statements are applicable to him as well they clearly aren't supposed to be used to imply acausality because again, Golem (who they are applicable to) is explicitly bound by the laws of time.

So your problem is contradiction? Firstly, he is talking about eternal beauty, not immortality itself.

Second, contradiction is not really a good argument considering the following.

Acasualty does not make any character immune to time manipulation, causality, etc. It just makes them follow other rules for this.

All sentences about immortals and time are made normally, casually. Phrases like this one from Carmilla, is made during Aeon's final power, a time stop that works on beings with conceptual resistance to it, he is saying this type of phrase when his ability actually works on the enemy.

You're being willfully ignorant, he says nothing withstands time to her while using time hax on here. Is she was acausal and the reason his time stop worked was due to it's other unrelated unique properties he would specify that.

If she and the creatures already have resistance to time manipulation then that would grant him layered hax rather than anything relevant to acausality.

Acausality Type 4 specifically means that they operate on an irregular causality system to the regular one, this causality system might operate from the outside like the regular one (Their actions have effects etc.) but changes to the regular causality (alongside stuff relevant to it) won't affect them.

If Carmilla was in this state, Aeon wouldn't be saying her goal is pointless because nothing withstands time, he would be making reference to the unique system of time (In this case since it's time stuff that's relevant) she is beholden to rather than just time.

Conceptual resistance is irrelevant to the point and irrelevant to acausality...

None of this implies that death is tied to time.

Aeon is just saying that the power of death under the fate of death is under time, and not that the character itself is. Not unlike that timeless person's main form of power is manipulating time, the character is not under the control of time but his power can be linked.

Death embodies/governs the fate of death -> fate is bound to time -> Death is bound by time...

This is basic common sense and you're just ignoring the fact that Aeon makes this statement to death because clearly he isn't unbound by time.

But even at that, you never so much as imply in your post that deaths hax would be excluded from his supposed acausality. If this was your intention you make literally 0 indication of such and only backrolled onto it when it became clear the entire acausality thing was choppy

The contradiction again.

Again, type 4 Acausality does not make someone immune to time. Characters with this may be susceptible to time.

All of these characters resist the power of time on a conceptual level.

Again with the conceptual hax, non of that is relevant to acausality nor even slightly important to this discussion

You're justification for Acausality are scans specifically saying they either "ignore the passage of time" or "are free from time" which in the context you believe them to be applicable are synonymous with being immune to the regular system of time but now you are now arguing what amounts to saying these thing don't actually mean acausality which would automatically disqualify them anyway

You're ignoring my primary point which is that Golem, who all of these scans [Disrupting Time/Ignoring the flow of time/having a soul freed from time] is explicitly stated to be bound by the laws of time, not some uniquely separate laws of time but THE laws of time which would automatically require that we examine the later statements in context of this information which is then paired with the other statements.

Basically, all of these statements [Disrupting Time/Ignoring the flow of time/having a soul freed from time] are applicable to Golem, who is then explicitly included amongst those said to be bound by the laws of time which means all those prior statement are not meant to imply something is unbound by the laws of time thus they are not meant to imply acausality.

 

[Phsccarvalho]

Because they are all according to Aeon Bound by time one way or another and in your own explanation of the acausality the scan you yourself use to explain that other things which aren't the immortals are bound by time are scans of Aeon saying what amounts to "These guys are bound by time".

They are not tied to conventional time.

Again, this is acausuality type 4 and not 5. 5 would be something like that and any contradiction will already be a disqualification.

Type 4 no, type 4 explicitly says that the characters still operate in a different and irregular system and not totally and completely outside of any system (as type 5 would be)

All of these characters are either free of time or disrupt it. Whether it's the lines from Aeon, Dracula, or the lore itself.

These characters may very well be free from time and destiny, but be under it in another system. Because type 4 acausuality is literally that.

Especially when we have countless regular or conceptual TS not working on these characters and only the strongest TS in the franchise working.

I editted that in at the end already

None of this refutes what I said.

You insinuated that everything Aeon said is flowery language, when he literally doesn't use those phrases for that purpose.

He used the same phrase of "disrupt time" for the immortals and the Time Reaper (another immortal) who was seriously affecting time.

The proof is that he literally says what amounts to "Golem you are bound by the laws of time" after saying "Immortals ignore the flow of time"/"Your soul is free from time" which for anyone who isn't being willfully ignorant cannot be read as acausality when paired with the other statement thus since these statements are more specifically made with inclusion to their immortality the logical conclusion is that Aeon means to say that they won't die with the passage of time (aka not aging) rather than that they are acausal.

Golem is an artificial being who gained sentience from being in the Time rift and this wanted to be human and Aeon is making the statement specifically to Golem - I never said it's only applicable to Golem or even that he's saying the laws of time are only applicable to artificial life rather than all life. What I am saying is that since it is clearly said about Golem he cannot be acausal because he is EXPLICITLY BOUND BY THE LAWS OF TIME and that since all the other statements are applicable to him as well they clearly aren't supposed to be used to imply acausality because again, Golem (who they are applicable to) is explicitly bound by the laws of time.

Aeon never, I repeat never, says the phrase to be something specific to the golem.

He speaks of artificial life, like all life, even artificial life obeys the laws of time.

He doesn't start the sentence with "Golem, you obey the laws of time", no, he uses "even artificial life".

Using another example, if I said "even artificial life feels pain", the context is explicit as life, even if it is artificial, feels pain.

Now this being attributed to the immortals. Immortals are living beings, obviously, right?

Death embodies/governs the fate of death -> fate is bound to time -> Death is bound by time....

This is basic common sense and you're just ignoring the fact that Aeon makes this statement to death because clearly he isn't unbound by time

No, only the destiny part is related to time, and not that death itself is linked to time or is under them.

They are treated in different ways, with the only connection being that one of the forms of death's power has to do with fate, but not meaning that all death itself does.

Especially when Death himself tells Aeon that he (Aeon) could escape time but not death, detailing that Death decides and who lives in who dies, with Aeon not being the exception. Only a small part of Death's powers are related to time, which is when destiny is used, but not Death itself being related to time.

If death were something governed by time, this wouldn't happen.

Again with the conceptual hax, non of that is relevant to acausality nor even slightly important to this discussion

You're justification for Acausality are scans specifically saying they either "ignore the passage of time" or "are free from time" which in the context you believe them to be applicable are synonymous with being "immune to time" but now you are now arguing what amounts to saying these thing don't actually mean acausality which would automatically disqualify them anyway

You're ignoring my primary point which is that Golem, who all of these scans [Disrupting Time/Ignoring the flow of time/having a soul freed from time] is explicitly stated to be bound by the laws of time, not some uniquely separate laws of time but THE laws of time which would automatically require that we examine the later statements in context of this information which is then paired with the other statements

The conceptual thing is just an example of why contradiction is not a good argument.

Since you sometimes use it saying that they can't be free from time, when Aeon uses TS on them. Since it is not just on this wiki, as within Castlevania it is very common for temporal powers/time to be stronger than others or temporal powers working in beings that are explicitly timeless.

For a character to be free from concepts such as time, causality, laws of these things, etc. means type 4. And him being affected by something related to this is not a real anti feat, since apart from type 5, all of them can be affected by those types of powers that have been demonstrated to work at that level.

 

[Sonoftanavast9]

They are not tied to conventional time.

Again, this is acausuality type 4 and not 5. 5 would be something like that and any contradiction will already be a disqualification.

Type 4 no, type 4 explicitly says that the characters still operate in a different and irregular system and not totally and completely outside of any system (as type 5 would be)

The point of Acausality Type 4 is that they are bound by a different system of causality than the normal one of the world while Acausality Type 5 is that they are completely independent of causality all together.

Being bound by the laws of time [Non specified to be the case where you're just bound to a different set of them] is clearly a disqualifier for Acausality Type 4

All of these characters are either free of time or disrupt it. Whether it's the lines from Aeon, Dracula, or the lore itself.

These characters may very well be free from time and destiny, but be under it in another system. Because type 4 acausuality is literally that.

Especially when we have countless regular or conceptual TS not working on these characters and only the strongest TS in the franchise working.

Disrupting time is not relevant for Acausality, not only is it a statement used liberally even with non immortals but the fact that it doesn't matter for acausality is something both you yourself and I point out since Aeon says that line to nearly everybody.

You even ignored Aeon telling everyone that they disrupt the flow of time, a statement that is used for when a character actually affects time in some way. For example, the Time Reaper is about to destroy the universes.

To add to this "Disrupting the flow of time" above is completely vague with no explanation or clarification that would make it actually relevant in qualifying for acausality

And regardless of what he says about their souls being freed from time, Golem is explicitly bound by the laws of time in the same fashion everything else is - You yourself use the scan to say that all things are bound by the laws of time [Meaning you clearly know it means the conventional laws rather than a separate system of laws]

None of this refutes what I said.

You insinuated that everything Aeon said is flowery language, when he literally doesn't use those phrases for that purpose.

He used the same phrase of "disrupt time" for the immortals and the Time Reaper (another immortal) who was seriously affecting time.

Again disrupting time on its own is meaningless, if Aeon is says it to the Time Reaper because the time reaper was going to destroy the universe then he is saying it for that specific reason not that the time reaper is acausal due to being immortal + I both you and I have already pointed out that he makes this statement for others who aren't immortal at all.

I make the point that the statement of "Disrupting time" is not exclusive to the immortals[The example I used was Marier], because clearly it isn't and as such it would have no connection to the other statements relevant specifically to the immortals [Ignoring the passage of time/Their souls being freed from time].

Aeon never, I repeat never, says the phrase to be something specific to the golem.

He speaks of artificial life, like all life, even artificial life obeys the laws of time.


He doesn't start the sentence with "Golem, you obey the laws of time", no, he uses "even artificial life".

Using another example, if I said "even artificial life feels pain", the context is explicit as life, even if it is artificial, feels pain.

Now this being attributed to the immortals. Immortals are living beings, obviously, right?

This is farcically, he's talking directly to golem an artificial creation... Whether or not the statement applies to other things in general is irrelevant he is making it to Golem and includes Golem in that category. Golem is an artificial being so of course the statement which Aeon makes to Golem about Artificial beings would be directed at not just artificial beings in general with specific exclusion to Golem but instead with inclusion of Golem... You have to be willingly ignorant to come to the conclusion that "actually Aeon wasn't talking about Golem, he meant all the other artificial being except the artificial being he's talking to right now"...

Golems literal description in game is

An artificial being that has an unnatural soul.

The statement comes after Aeon [someone with power over time] just beats Golem [An artificial being]

If I was talking to an artificial creature after beating it with a baseball bat and said "Even artificial life isn't immune to a baseball bat the skull" no one one who isn't completely incapable of understanding basic English would assume I was actually not talking about the artificial being I just being and instead just talking about artificial stuff in general with the specific exclusion of the artificial being I just said that statement to....

You are literally bending over backwards because you know how nonsensical your argument looks in light of this.

Using another example, if I said "even artificial life feels pain", the context is explicit as life, even if it is artificial, feels pain.

The actual non-agenda driven example of what you wrote here would be like if I did something to an artificial being then it cried out in pain and I said "Even artificial life feels pain", the context being that I'm not making this statement to say "Artificial life in general with the exclusion of the specific artificial life I'm talking to." which is what you need that statement to be for it not to bulldoze your entire arguement.

No, only the destiny part is related to time, and not that death itself is linked to time or is under them.

They are treated in different ways, with the only connection being that one of the forms of death's power has to do with fate, but not meaning that all death itself does.

Especially when Death himself tells Aeon that he (Aeon) could escape time but not death, detailing that Death decides and who lives in who dies, with Aeon not being the exception. Only a small part of Death's powers are related to time, which is when destiny is used, but not Death itself being related to time.

If death were something governed by time, this wouldn't happen.

The Fate of death is obviously related to Fate and thus with Destiny in general being bound by time so would the destiny of death... This isn't rocket science. Death governs the Fate of Death, thus if Fate in general is beholden to time it affects him. Aeon's situation while makes the statement is that he literally uses his time powers [Heed me Time] on Death to proper effect which if he was acausal and thus the statement was only applicable to that specific power of his, Death himself wouldn't be in that situation. These statements aren't made in a vacuum.

Aeon wouldn't be an exception to deaths hax because he actively fighting him and not running away through time, Aeon Eluding time is in reference to him being a time traveler but obviously while fighting the rift he isn't escaping attacks by jumping through time.

The conceptual thing is just an example of why contradiction is not a good argument.

Since you sometimes use it saying that they can't be free from time, when Aeon uses TS on them. Since it is not just on this wiki, as within Castlevania it is very common for temporal powers/time to be stronger than others or temporal powers working in beings that are explicitly timeless.

For a character to be free from concepts such as time, causality, laws of these things, etc. means type 4. And him being affected by something related to this is not a real anti feat, since apart from type 5, all of them can be affected by those types of powers that have been demonstrated to work at that level.

There's no contradiction, Resistance to conceptual manipulation has little to no relevance to acausality.

I say they can't be freed from time in a way that would mean they are acausal because someone who that is said to is also said to be bound by the laws of time which is a contradiction of your own argument that you refuse to acknowledge, instead opting to twist the English language in illogical ways.

Whether a character can be freed from the concepts of time/causality etc is irrelevant to the point, It can be the case but even those aren't set in stone depending on the context surrounding those statement and what actual relevant they might have beyond flowery text or misinterpretation.

The statements we are talking about neither make call to that and are directly shot dead in the water by the statement of Golem being bound by the laws of time.

 

[Phsccarvalho]

The point of Acausality Type 4 is that they are bound by a different system of causality than the normal one of the world while Acausality Type 5 is that they are completely independent of causality all together.

Being bound by the laws of time [Non specified to be the case where you're just bound to a different set of them] is clearly a disqualifier for Acausality Type 4

And they are operating on another system, since they are free from regular time/destination due to the large number of statements, and lore in general.

Disrupting time is not relevant for Acausality, not only is it a statement used liberally even with non immortals but the fact that it doesn't matter for acausality is something both you yourself and I point out since Aeon says that line to nearly everybody.
And regardless of what he says about their souls being freed from time, Golem is explicitly bound by the laws of time in the same fashion everything else is - You yourself use the scan to say that all things are bound by the laws of time [Meaning you clearly know it means the conventional laws rather than a separate system of laws]

I mentioned stopping time to show that Aeon doesn't make this kind of statement about time in a flowery way. You argued that his sentences were flowery, when they are not.

And I used the example of this phrase, which he uses for a being that is explicitly affecting time. If this statement that is used in the same way as the others is not flowery, why would the others be?

Living things are limited by the regular laws of time, but immortals would not be considering the large number of statements saying that regular time is not a thing for them.

This is farcically, he's talking directly to golem an artificial creation... Whether or not the statement applies to other things in general is irrelevant he is making it to Golem and includes Golem in that category. Golem is an artificial being so of course the statement which Aeon makes to Golem about Artificial beings would be directed at not just artificial beings in general with specific exclusion to Golem but instead with inclusion of Golem... You have to be willingly ignorant to come to the conclusion that "actually Aeon wasn't talking about Golem, he meant all the other artificial being except the artificial being he's talking to right now"...

Golems literal description in game is
The statement comes after Aeon [someone with power over time] just beats Golem [An artificial being]

If I was talking to an artificial creature after beating it with a baseball bat and said "Even artificial life isn't immune to a baseball bat the skull" no one one who isn't completely incapable of understanding basic English would assume I was actually not talking about the artificial being I just being and instead just talking about artificial stuff in general with the specific exclusion of the artificial being I just said that statement to....

You are literally bending over backwards because you know how nonsensical your argument looks in light of this.
The actual non-agenda driven example of what you wrote here would be like if I did something to an artificial being then it cried out in pain and I said "Even artificial life feels pain", the context being that I'm not making this statement to say "Artificial life in general with the exclusion of the specific artificial life I'm talking to." which is what you need that statement to be for it not to bulldoze your entire arguement.

If it weren't for the fact that Aeon says that the Golem, as an immortal is as free from time as the others.

Life and artificial life are bound by the laws of time -> however Golem is said by the Aeon to be as free from time and the passage of time as the others by further statements.

Aeon is bragging about the laws of time and the artificial life of the Golem at that moment because basically he is using the strongest power of time that works on this type of being. A kind of time power that works.

In the same way as, for example, Dracula, who has the draclaration of the other immortals made by Aeon, and has his own declaration that says that Time and Destiny have no meaning for him. But when Aeon uses his ultimate TS and strongest technique, he says that Dracula cannot stand the test of time.

Why does he say that? Considering that Dracula has resisted regular TS countless times and has these various statements? Because at that moment Aeon is using a temporal power that is strong or above enough that it works on this type of being that is free from time. Basically the same thing as someone doing TS on someone timeless, does not mean that the being is not timeless but rather that that power of time works on that type of being.

The Fate of death is obviously related to Fate and thus with Destiny in general being bound by time so would the destiny of death... This isn't rocket science. Death governs the Fate of Death, thus if Fate in general is beholden to time it affects him. Aeon's situation while makes the statement is that he literally uses his time powers [Heed me Time] on Death to proper effect which if he was acausal and thus the statement was only applicable to that specific power of his, Death himself wouldn't be in that situation. These statements aren't made in a vacuum.

Aeon wouldn't be an exception to deaths hax because he actively fighting him and not running away through time, Aeon Eluding time is in reference to him being a time traveler but obviously while fighting the rift he isn't escaping attacks by jumping through time.

Once again you are using contradiction to argue when I have already shown that there is no problem.

Death can act its powers in different ways, destiny being one of them. With destiny being related to time. But death itself, this concept of Death (and not the being destined for it) is not something linked to time.

This is evidenced with Death saying that Aeon could escape time, but not death. Obviously because death itself (and the character that is its concept) is not limited to time, if it were, Aeon being able to escape time could also escape death.

And again, casuals can be affected by TS, as long as it finds context, and this one has it. Aeon's TS is not an ordinary TS, it is his ultimate power that works on beings resistant to the conceptual power of time, etc.

 

[Sonoftanavast9]

And they are operating on another system, since they are free from regular time/destination due to the large number of statements, and lore in general.

Except they aren't because someone baring the exact same statements as them is explicitly said to be bound by the laws of time in the same way thing in general are.

I mentioned stopping time to show that Aeon doesn't make this kind of statement about time in a flowery way. You argued that his sentences were flowery, when they are not.

And I used the example of this phrase, which he uses for a being that is explicitly affecting time. If this statement that is used in the same way as the others is not flowery, why would the others be?

Living things are limited by the regular laws of time, but immortals would not be considering the large number of statements saying that regular time is not a thing for them.

I argue that it is meaningless when removed of the specific context it is made in because that specific statement is made liberally to literally everyone [The specific Example I gave was Marie], including people who are explicitly bound by conventional time and not immortals themselves which shows that it has no connection to the immortals being acausal.

If he says it to comment on a specific event, such as Time Reaper destroying the world for an example, then that specific circumstance is all it matter for it in that given moment - Essentially disrupting time in of itself has no relevant to acausality and when the statement is made about a specific circumstance it is only applicable in that moment to that circumstance. I say the "You immortals Ignoring the flow of time"/"Your souls are free of time" is flowery because clearly it cannot be reconciled with such immortals being bound by the laws of time if it was meant to explain that immortals in general are acausal.

Again The statement about Artificial life was made to Golem, one of such immortals and clearly means he is bound by the laws of time.

If it weren't for the fact that Aeon says that the Golem, as an immortal is as free from time as the others.

Life and artificial life are bound by the laws of time -> however Golem is said by the Aeon to be as free from time and the passage of time as the others by further statements.

Aeon is bragging about the laws of time and the artificial life of the Golem at that moment because basically he is using the strongest power of time that works on this type of being. A kind of time power that works.

In the same way as, for example, Dracula, who has the draclaration of the other immortals made by Aeon, and has his own declaration that says that Time and Destiny have no meaning for him. But when Aeon uses his ultimate TS and strongest technique, he says that Dracula cannot stand the test of time.

Why does he say that? Considering that Dracula has resisted regular TS countless times and has these various statements? Because at that moment Aeon is using a temporal power that is strong or above enough that it works on this type of being that is free from time. Basically the same thing as someone doing TS on someone timeless, does not mean that the being is not timeless but rather that that power of time works on that type of being.

Aeon makes the statemen about being bound by Time about Golem after beating Golem with time powers. This again isn't rocket science, the real issue is you're attempt to use flavor text to provide characters with abilities that logically they simply don't have.

Aeon's primary combat method is Time Manipulation -> Aeon beat Golem in a fight -> Golem is an artificial being -> Aeon says that even artificial beings are bound by the laws of time

This is a clear line of basic common sense, the statement would not be exclusively said to Golem if his nature as an artificial being thus by the statement being bound by the laws of time wasn't relevant. If Aeon was just trying to explain that stuff in general is bound by the laws of time then he would say this statement to literally everyone indiscriminately.

an Immortal being "Ignoring the passage of time"/"Their souls being freed form the flow of time" can be interpreted as flowery text for being ageless when put in context of the fact that Aeon specifically says to one of such beings that they are bound by the laws of time.

Once again you are using contradiction to argue when I have already shown that there is no problem.

Death can act its powers in different ways, destiny being one of them. With destiny being related to time. But death itself, this concept of Death (and not the being destined for it) is not something linked to time.

This is evidenced with Death saying that Aeon could escape time, but not death. Obviously because death itself (and the character that is its concept) is not limited to time, if it were, Aeon being able to escape time could also escape death.

And again, casuals can be affected by TS, as long as it finds context, and this one has it. Aeon's TS is not an ordinary TS, it is his ultimate power that works on beings resistant to the conceptual power of time, etc.

There is no contradiction beyond your own attempt to reconcile Golem's status.

The context of the statement about death is given when he is actively being affected by said time manipulation which would mean that the explanation Aeon gave is the reason. If all Aeon meant to imply was that "Hey Death, while you are completely immune to time hax one of your abilities isn't" then death wouldn't be in that situation and Aeon wouldn't be saying while actively time stopping Death himself rather than just affecting one of Deaths Powers.

But even ignoring this, it's clear how this is pretty much just a backpedal because you never made any attempt to conclude that deaths fate hax would be left out of his acausality despite using that exact statement for further justification for the acausality. The fate of death is something he governs but virtue of embodying death, it is inseparable from death himself and the fact Aeon makes that statement while affecting death himself rather than just affecting his power makes that clear as day.

Aeon is a time traveler, when death says he can elude time but not death it is because Death has just won his fight with Aeon but Aeon obviously doesn't just insta-win with time travel when he's in the time rift. The Context the statement is made under is that Death won a fight with a time traveler and thus says while he can elude time he cannot elude death not that Death is acausal by virtue of being unbound by time.

 

[Phsccarvalho]

Except they aren't because someone baring the exact same statements as them is explicitly said to be bound by the laws of time in the same way thing in general are.

They are.

I argue that it is meaningless when removed of the specific context it is made in because that specific statement is made liberally to literally everyone [The specific Example I gave was Marie], including people who are explicitly bound by conventional time and not immortals themselves which shows that it has no connection to the immortals being acausal.

If he says it to comment on a specific event, such as Time Reaper destroying the world for an example, then that specific circumstance is all it matter for it in that given moment - Essentially disrupting time in of itself has no relevant to acausality and when the statement is made about a specific circumstance it is only applicable in that moment to that circumstance. I say the "You immortals Ignoring the flow of time"/"Your souls are free of time" is flowery because clearly it cannot be reconciled with such immortals being bound by the laws of time if it was meant to explain that immortals in general are acausal.

Again The statement about Artificial life was made to Golem, one of such immortals and clearly means he is bound by the laws of time.

He makes this kind of statement when he uses his maximum ability, his strongest TS.

He is referencing the temporal power of his TS in these statements, because he only makes these types of statements during the time of this ability.

He tells Sypha that no magic would overcome time, but in the verses we have magic strong enough to remove someone's concept of time. He says this to Sypha when he uses the strongest time power in the franchise, the phrases he says during his final power are basically a reference to how strong the time power of his final power is, to work in this type of situation. be to the point where they can't escape.

The same thing Aeon says to Belmonts or Dracula, saying that they don't resist time. Why does he say that considering that these guys resist temporal powers on a conceptual level? Because he says exactly these phrases when he uses his strongest time power that these characters end up not resisting, because it is a much greater type of time power.

These phrases are the Aeon boasting about its own power of time, to beings who already resist the regulation of this type of thing.

Aeon makes the statemen about being bound by Time about Golem after beating Golem with time powers. This again isn't rocket science, the real issue is you're attempt to use flavor text to provide characters with abilities that logically they simply don't have.

Aeon's primary combat method is Time Manipulation -> Aeon beat Golem in a fight -> Golem is an artificial being -> Aeon says that even artificial beings are bound by the flow of time

This is a clear line of basic common sense, the statement would not be exclusively said to Golem if his nature as an artificial being thus by the statement being bound by the laws of time wasn't relevant. If Aeon was just trying to explain that stuff in general is bound by the laws of time then he would say this statement to literally everyone indiscriminately.

an Immortal being "Ignoring the passage of time"/"Their souls being freed form the flow of time" can be interpreted as flowery text for being ageless when put in context of the fact that Aeon specifically says to one of such beings that they are bound by the laws of time.

Except not? Aeon doesn't say this to the Golem when he beats him. Even in post-battle quotes he never says a similar quote about time being above the characters. In fact, his quotes after beating them are as follows: "I cannot allow that which would disrupt the flow of time." "Immortals disrupt the flow of time, don't you see?"

Even when he defeats them, he makes statements about these guys screwing up time.

Furthermore, the way the lore of this game works, Golem can also defeat Aeon.

He only makes the declaration of time above x character when he manages to use his final power, which is a power of time that can work on these guys. This is the only situation where he makes this type of statement, when he manages to catch these guys in time with his ultimate power.

There is no contradiction beyond your own attempt to reconcile Golem's status.

The context of the statement about death is given when he is actively being affected by said time manipulation which would mean that the explanation Aeon gave is the reason. If all Aeon meant to imply was that "Hey Death, while you are completely immune to time hax one of your abilities isn't" then death wouldn't be in that situation and Aeon wouldn't be saying while actively time stopping Death himself rather than just affecting one of Deaths Powers.

But even ignoring this, it's clear how this is pretty much just a backpedal because you never made any attempt to conclude that deaths fate hax would be left out of his acausality despite using that exact statement for further justification for the acausality. The fate of death is something he governs but virtue of embodying death, it is inseparable from death himself and the fact Aeon makes that statement while affecting death himself rather than just affecting his power makes that clear as day.

Aeon is a time traveler, when death says he can elude time but not death it is because Death has just won his fight with Aeon but Aeon obviously doesn't just insta-win with time travel when he's in the time rift. The Context the statement is made under is that Death won a fight with a time traveler and thus says while he can elude time he cannot elude death not that Death is acausal by virtue of being unbound by time.

Death is death, destiny is an additional thing to this concept, which he can use.

Damn, another thing he can say to Aeon when he defeats him is "I am the god who governs death.", which could be in a context where the battle happened, Aeon used his final TS and said that about destiny, and then lost, with in the end Death reinforcing his power over death to Aeon. And it doesn't happen the other way around, Aeon doesn't talk or reinforce about time governing the destiny of death, he just tells Death to stop interrupting the flow of time.

Furthermore, why would escaping time be limited to simply traveling through time when in the same sentence we have escaping death? If you want to go ahead with this, it's just Death reinforcing that no matter time, time travel or anything related to time, Death would be one thing Aeon couldn't escape.