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Cardfight!! Vanguard Upgrades

ProfessorKukui4Life

ProfessorKukui4Life

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Aight. Had to put this off for a bit but now I might as well make this to get it officialized. Now that the 2nd feats blog for Cardfight!! Vanguard has been completed , it's upgrade time. Going to address the simple stuff first and the more important material second. Here we go.

Subjective Reality for all Cardfighters
This thread isn't going to list hax abilities as that would take too long. Anyone reading this can skim through the blog itself to analyze the listed abilities if they want. However, I do want to address a hax that should've been added from the beginning, but wasn't, because I am oblivious.

Every cardfighter and their mother needs to have Subjective Reality. The power of a Cardfighter's imagination is the central role of them being able to play Cardfight!! Vanguard in the first place. They use their imagination to send their souls to Planet Cray, summon Units, possess and fight as the Units, etc. Everything they do in a cardfight is driven by their imagination, which becomes reality. This should be pretty simple. They already have "Imagination Manipulation" listed on their pages, it just needs to be updated to be specified as Subjective Reality.

Speed Upgrades
This one is also fairly simple. Currently, the verse is scaled to the MFTL+ feat that Takuto Tatsunagi pulls off using his soul to travel past numerous stars extremely quickly. Since then, I made a calc to address the feat being far better than this and it got approved and accepted to be used.

So now, the degree of MFTL+ is in the Quadrillions range. The feat is already on their pages, what just needs to be done is have the calc linked to their speeds to give a more clarified rating as to what range of MFTL+ they reach. Now for the more important upgrades.

4-A Upgrade from Misaki's Tsukuyomi feat
Here, we got a new feat to be added. And once again, Misaki Tokura is the source of this said feat. In Episode 72 of Cardfight!! Vanguard Asia Circuit , Misaki's Goddess of the Full Moon Tsukuyomi performs a feat of casually creating a pocket dimension during her phase of attacking, which houses a moon and over dozens of stars presently inside (To make this easier, watch up to 4:00 and pause it to get a better view). While the attack fails because Misaki's opponent successfully guarded it, the dimension was still created in the middle of Tsukuyomi's attack.

This, by our sites current standards, counts as a 4-A feat.

Is 4-A an outlier?
Just incase this is asked, no, 4-A is not an outlier because this new feat is being performed by one of Misaki's strongest Units. And a Unit who's considered her Avatar at that.

The current High 4-C ratings come from a High 4-C feat that was performed in the previous Vanguard season at the start of the series. That, and Misaki's Unit who performed this feat is her Grade 1 Goddess of the Cresent Moon Tsukuyomi, which is a much weaker pre-evolution of Full Moon Tsukuyomi, a Grade 3. Full Moon Tsukuyomi currently just upscales from her weaker form, which is unnecessary now since she has her own feat to be rated from.

Who scales from this feat?
With this 4-A feat coming from Misaki, pretty much every relevant Cardfighter that has a page here, and will be getting their pages added soon, would scale to this feat. This also includes their Beginning Series keys. Reason why this scales to everyone is because Misaki when performing this feat was at exactly the same level of power she was at by the end of Nationals in S1. That would mean Full Moon Tsukuyomi was just 4-A all along, before and during Asia Circuit.

In addition to this, Misaki's S1 Oracle Think Tank deck with her Tsukuyomi Units are treated as fodder during the first half of Asia Circuit. With it, she loses every major cardfight she participates in against relevant characters, including a stronger Asaka Narumi. Even a minor character who literally appeared for only 2 episodes in the series was able to defeat Misaki using this deck. It is only when upgrading her deck in the 2nd half of the season (Episode 85) that Misaki becomes stronger than she was before. Otherwise, her S1 deck is only strong enough to defeat everyday fodder cardfighters by this point in the series. So every Cardfighter who gets a page here is a player who has either defeated Misaki, defeated opponents stronger than her, or faced cardfighters near her level. Making them 4-A.

The enemy of Season 2, The Void, would also scale to this.

How things appear now on the pages
Currently, the Vanguard cardfighters are all rated by ratings generally like this:

"Tier: At least 8-C with Grade 0 Units, at least High 4-C with Grade 1 & higher Units"

"Speed: At least Massively FTL+ with Units (The souls of Cardfighters are far inferior to the Units of Planet Cray and explicitly require them to battle in cardfights, which would include Takuto's soul, which traveled past numerous stars in seconds to reach Planet Cray and all cardfighters transport their souls to Planet Cray when participating in cardfights)"

How things would appear after the upgrades
For most Season 1 Cardfighters:

"Tier: At least 8-C with Grade 0 Units, High 4-C with Grade 1 and 2 Units, 4-A with Grade 3 Units"

"Speed: At least Massively FTL+ with Units (The souls of Cardfighters are far inferior to the Units of Planet Cray and explicitly require them to battle in cardfights, including Takuto's soul, which moved across the universe in a short timespa and all Cardfighters transport their souls to Planet Cray when participating in cardfights)"

For some Season 2 Cardfighters:

"Tier: At least 8-C with Grade 0 Units, High 4-C with Grade 1 and 2 Units, 4-A with Grade 3 Units"

"Speed: At least Massively FTL+ with Units (Faster than before; Possesses Units superior to their previous decks)"

Now, notice how I said "most" and some"? I said that because some of the cardfighters are exceptions to that. I'll address them below in their own section.

What are these exceptions?

For Season 1
Aichi and Ren only. Their Avatar Units, Blaster Blade and Blaster Dark, should actually scale to 4-A like their Grade 3s would. Blaster Blade and Blaster Dark are not typical Grade 2s, they are Aichi and Ren's Avatars and signature Units they always utilize. Further evidence of this comes from the fact that, between the end of S1 and Asia Circuit, Blaster Blade and Blaster Dark were stated to be among-st the strongest of their respective clans and The Void captured these 2 (along with Dragonic Overlord) prior to sealing their clans away. The Void could have captured any of the Royal and Shadow Paladins, yet it captures Blaster Blade and Blaster Dark, suggesting they're at the very least among-st the strongest of their clans. How the upgrades would go for them would be this if accepted:

"Tier: At least 8-C with Grade 0 Units, High 4-C with Grade 1 and 2 Units, 4-A with Blaster Blade and Grade 3 Units"

"Tier: At least 8-C with Grade 0 Units, High 4-C with Grade 1 and 2 Units, 4-A with Blaster Dark and Grade 3 Units"

For Season 2
Team Q4, Team Asteroid, and Team Dreadnought should be the only ones in Season 2 who'd have their entire decks upgraded to 4-A as a whole. Why? Because of the clan that Leon Soryu and his allies use, the Aquaforce.

Prior to the start of the anime, the Aquaforce clan was the strongest of all the clans on Planet Cray. During a time where the clans fought each other to defend their territories, the Aquaforce appeared to end their fighting. Their power was unrivaled by any of the other clans, which allowed the Aquaforce to rule Planet Cray before The Void sealed them away. Since no other clan could rival Aquaforce, that would mean nothing the other clans had could even challenge Aquaforce. This would include Misaki's Oracle Think Tank clan. Meaning, the entire Aquaforce clan as a whole would be nothing but 4-A Units.

Aside from Aichi defeating Leon, all of Q4 and Asteroid can contend with Leon and his allies Jillian and Sharlene who wield the Aquaforce clan. Ren and Asaka fought Jillian and Sharlene when Kai took Leon on, and Misaki and Kamui did the same thing when Aichi took Kai's place. Therefore, these 3 teams would be the only Cardfighters who'd have their decks scale to 4-A completely.

Tl;dr
-All Cardfighters need Subjective Reality via cardfighting on Planet Cray with their power of imagination becoming reality.

-The accepted calc for Takuto's speed feat needs to be added to the respective pages

-Everyone who has a page here is to become 4-A because of Misaki's Full Moon Tsukuyomi; Most of the fighters in Season 1 and Asia Circuit will only become 4-A through their Grade 3s; Season 1 Aichi and Ren are to be upgraded to 4-A with their Avatars & Grade 3s; Team Q4, Team Asteroid and Team Dreadnought in Asia Circuit are to become 4-A entirely.
 
everything else seems fine, but I am unsure about the 4-A, I dont see the stars in the video you linked, all it shows is a moon.
 
Rocker1189 said:
everything else seems fine, but I am unsure about the 4-A, I dont see the stars in the video you linked, all it shows is a moon.
Click to expand...
They're shown after Misaki's opponent guards the attack. Pause the video at 4:00 and you'll see the moon and the stars present before Tsukuyomi ends her attack and makes the dimension fade away.
 
4-A? You forgot Dragonic Overlord?

And Ss2 Aqua force Clan should get higher with power of Void? Since they amped and dominate all clan during that time?
 
@Link

Dragonic Overlord is a Grade 3, all of the Grade 3's in BoS and Asia Circuit are becoming 4-As. I didn't forget him.

The Aquaforce being amped by the Void just puts them higher into 4-A, not a tier beyond it.

Blaster Blade is becoming 4-A before and during Asia Circuit, so yes, Blaster Blade Spirit would become 4-A as well.
 
ProfessorKukui4Life said:
@Link
Dragonic Overlord is a Grade 3, all of the Grade 3's in BoS and Asia Circuit are becoming 4-As. I didn't forget him.
Click to expand...
Ah yeah my mistook, I forgot Overlord was already Grade 3 :V ,After all seem fine
 
I don't see how subjective reality would count as a power, the scenes with them don't seem to be literal, just an imaginary sequence. So it probably isn't a power, just a visual metaphor (I might be wrong if something late into the series confirms that it is real as I only got under 1/2 of the way through. I might re-watch for Nostalgia's sake anyway though.)
 
They are literal, read through the 1st and 2ng blogs I made so far for the verse that explains all of this in length.

Planet Cray is acknowledged as being a real planet with the Units existing and the cardfighters legitimately battle on Cray whenever they cardfight. It's not a case where its like Yu-Gi-Oh and duels being holographic 95% of the time.
 
Okay that makes 5 people (1 being staff) agree so far. But because the upgrades here are quite big, I think we still need more approval before they get accepted. But we're off to a great start.
 
Ok so this is coming from a guy with next to no knowledge on this series but I agree with Subjective Reality and the speed upgrade given the calc checks out.

I have a question about the 4-A feat. Is what I saw a standard thing for these guys?. What I mean is, when these monsters do their attack phase, does the background do a change like that?. I would argue it's just a cool effect like how Kite from Yu-Gi-Oh summons Galaxy Eye's Photon Dragon and you see all the stars appear if that's the case.
 
Thank you for your assistance LordGriffin, it's much appreciated.

To answer your question, yes, this is a standard thing for Vanguard Units. Since this is a card-game verse, and we already know Yu-Gi-Oh's history here when it comes to feats, I can very much understand the need to ask. But what separates Cardfight!! Vanguard's feats from Yu-Gi-Oh's is that in the case of Vanguard, the attack scenes from the Units and the Units themselves are 100% real.

In this verse, the characters involved use their imagination to pull off abilities like Soul Projection to transport their souls to the home-world of the Units, Planet Cray. And they use the Units themselves to battle each other on Cray while their physical bodies remain behind on Earth to fight each other with their cards at the same time. It's not holographic like in Yugioh's case or some imaginary special effects sequence. Here, the Units are real and they are used to battle each other on Cray on behalf of the players who wield them.

So in this battle for example, Tsukuyomi's feat of having created her pocket dimension would be a real pocket dimension with stars.
 
Can't say I really get what's going on in that clip. There's no indication that they're now in a pocket dimension; if they really were, surely the stars and moon would be present for more than just a second. Just because the verse has their cards have physical effects doesn't mean everything shown is tangible and not just an aura or something.

Speed upgrade is fine, as is subjective reality. Would the MFTL+ speed be just travel speed, or would it apply to combat speed too?
 
It wasn't present that long because it was part of an attack that got stopped. Tsukuyomi created it as part of her attack, but Misaki's opponent successfully defended against it, making Tsukuyomi cease her attack.

Had it not been blocked, the dimension would have remained longer than it did.
 
And for your speed question, no it would scale to all speeds since Units can react to each others attacks, guard against them, hit each other with their attacks, etc.
 
So she made a pocket dimension to be used as an attack? The background of the other guy was unchanged, so she hadn't even enveloped him in the pocket dimension, assuming it was MSS in size (which it'd have to be to be 4-A, ofc). Is there any further context to this attack, because I'm not seeing it.

The description of it makes it seem like it was travel speed.
 
That can simply be that he defended against her attack at the same time as her creating the pocket dimension. Especially since we see everyone present within the pocket dimension's setting at 4:00 before she ceases her attack and makes the space fade away back into the prior underwater setting.

As for the speed feat, the feat itself is travel speed but the Units scale from it, which scales over to their other speeds since they can fight each other.
 
But we see the underwater background before and after he sends his summons out, before it cuts to the girl's summon with the starry background immediately fading away. We don't really know if in that instant they were in the pocket dimension or viewing it, with what I said before pointing to the latter, in which case it could just be an aura or something.

Ah, that's fine. Maybe for the speed description put that units can attack other units mid-travel just to make it clear.

It's pretty late (early?) for me, I'll try to reply again in the morning
 
While I understand what your saying Gyro, I feel that is being too nitpicky. With it taking place in a real physical area and us seeing them within the pocket dimension before it vanishes, the occums razer should point towards them being within the pocket dimension Tsukuyomi created shortly before it faded away from her ceasing her attack.

It also doesnt make much sense to say it was an "Aura" or anything like that when we see Tsukuyomi already having an aura around her when beginning her attack, making it seperate.
 
All of these seem fine at a glance. I guess we should link the relevant scans/videos to their 4-A keys and the relevant calc to their Massively FTL+ statistic.

Speaking of which, why are they "At least Massively FTL+" in their revised statistic? Normally we place them as such when they have Infinite and/or Immeasurable feats, or the current MFTL+ comes from a low ball, but they seem like regular MFTL+ to me.

Aside from that, like I've said, this seems fine.
 
Thank you for your input Julian.

However, can I ask what you mean by them being MFTL+ in their revised statistic? The new feat in the upgrade here is still MFTL+ for these guys, its just far more impressive than it was before when being lowballed.
 
I meant this: "At least Massively FTL+ with Units"

Is there any particular reason why they are "At least"? As in do they scale to any Infinite or higher feats? Because even the fastest MFTL+ characters I've seen are just plain "Massively FTL+" unless they scale to higher tier feats like "At least Massively FTL+, possibly Infinite" as an example.
 
Ohhh I see what you mean now. My fault.

They're given the "at least" because of the scaling. The souls of cardfighters, like Takuto's own soul, explicitly rely on and require the Units in order to fight each other in battles, so it would mean the Units themselves would have to be at least faster than the cardfighters souls. Which is where the "at least" came from.

But if you don't think it's neccessary, I have no issue with just using plain MFTL+.
 
I think something like this would be preferable:

"Speed: Massively FTL+ with Units (The souls of Cardfighters are far inferior to the Units of Planet Cray and explicitly require them to battle in cardfights, including Takuto's soul, which moved across the universe in a short timespan and all Cardfighters transport their souls to Planet Cray when participating in cardfights)"
 
Okay, thank you very much for your input here Julian.

Since the forum change is going to be here soon, is it fine for the upgrades to be accepted now with 8 people agreeing with this (2 being staff members)?
 
Does @GyroNutz agree with this? Because if so I don't see why not.

You might want to contact a Content Mod/Admin/Bureaucrat in order to unlock any pages that might need it.
 
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