CAPE Calcs and Storm Feats (Staff only)

[Executor_N0]

CAPE is to storm feats what Potential energy is to launching feats basically.

Yes, it is even possible to determine the kinetic energy of the air currents using CAPE (The formula would be: Kc = [2 X CAPE]^(1/2)).

CAPE determines the potential energy of the air parcels, which depending on the density can cause different things to occur. If the air parcel density is above the surrounding air density, then the buoyant force is more negative and the air sinks, but if that density is lower than the surrounding air density then the buoyant force increases and the air rises. If the density is equivalent, then the air packet will be in equilibrium by not transferring potential energy into kinetic energy. Technically I believe that it is possible to use the density of 1.003 kg / m┬│ when using CAPE, after all it is technically the same thing as Kinetic Energy, the difference is that in CAPE we would be "assuming the speed" according to the intensity of the storm.

 

[BlackeJan]

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:Kepekley23/Ninja_Art:_Rain_Tiger_at_Will_calc

What about this? It was made from Kep-sama so idk what he had done or when he comes back he could probably tell y'all about ut

 

[Mr. Bambu]

@Blacke Since that only affects the condensation, we should downgrade that with the 0.5g/m^3 density.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I think Executor makes sense. A couple Chrono Trigger calcs are rated higher than expected due to similar Potential energy reasons. For example, destroying a floating continent the size of the British Isles was High 6-A or Rain of Destruction in general being Planet level. So regardless of true cloud density being so low; which explains why it's lifted so much higher, it requires a significant amount of potential energy to even reach the clouds in the first place. Which would be in the ball park of the 1.003 kg/M^3 density combining with velocity value.

The details on CAPE also is based on other things of course as well.

 

[Antvasima]

You can mention whenever you have reached a conclusion, in case you need a calculation method page temporarily unlocked.

 

[DontTalkDT]

Hmmm... so the entire cloud is making 1 circle while the instability is maintained then? Interesting.


That aside everyone seems to be in agreement with the density issue. Should we document the decisions on the storm page or make a separate page just for clouds?

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Just as a TL;DR

• KE (if proven to be actual KE and not cloud formation) should use 1.003 kg/m^3

• CAPE should be the default calculation method and should use 1.003 kg/m^3

• Condensation and forming clouds and such should not use 1.003 kg/m^3 and should instead default to an appropriate density ofr the given cloud (default being 0.5 g/m^3, or 0.0005 kg/m^3)

• Vaporizing or otherwise destroying clouds should not use 1.003 kg/m^3 and should also default to the density of the vapor content (0.0005 kg/m^3)

Missing anything?

 

[DMUA]

Oh good, it's not effecting CAPE or KE.

So it's keeping my favorite verses at their tiers and downgrading the FC/OC Tabletop. This is the best downgrade of my life.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

It might affect calcs that were treated as KE, though.

Any calc that was KE via forming a storm would likely be called into question.

 

[DMUA]

Oh.


Well, I'm still good then for the most part...

Remembers InFAMOUS is a thing

OH SHI

 

[Jobbo]

This should apply to fog feats as well since they're basically the same thing.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Fog has a very low density compared to clouds and I doubt it falls under CAPE.

 

[Antoniofer]

Fog do not use CAPE, however is still condensed water (just another type of cloud), so it can be used for creation, although may have a different density than 0.5 g/m^3

 

[Mr. Bambu]

It does.

Fog is 0.05g/m^3, 1/10 of the density

 

[Jobbo]

According to this it varies depending on visibility, it's over 0.5 g/m^3 if visibility is less than 50m.

 

[Antoniofer]

So, did we reach a conclusion or the chanhes we made already? Also, with what DT said, we should changebthe standard of storm clouds thickness to the range of 8000 and 11800 m as low and high end respectively.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

So. Here's my proposed changes.

What Stays the Same:

• CAPE and KE calcs rely on the same density (1.003 kg/m^3)

• CAPE values remain the same for instability

What Changes:

• Storm creation calcs no longer rely on KE and purely function on CAPE or condensation

• Condensation calcs rely on the 0.5g/m^3 (0.0005 kg/m^3) density

• KE is only applicable in cases where the storm is drawn in supernaturally via the character's powers (a la All Might) or moved/dispersed/etc in such a way (a la Kushala Daora). KE does not apply to creating a storm over a given timeframe, only moving an already formed storm.

If I'm missing something, let me know. This means a fair amount of storm KE calcs need looking at but for the most part nothing huge. If someone can make up a list of verses that have such calcs that make up their AP basing, then that would be helpful. Right now the one I can think of is Ninjago.

 

[Antoniofer]

@Bambu, I think you covered everything relevant there, but what you think about DT's suggestion for cloud thickness? Also, I think there's more densities aside from 0.5 g/m^3 (it vay depending of the type of cloud/fog.

I also would like to known the method of calculation for condentation.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

0.5 g/m^3 is just what I'd suggest for standard.

What suggestion for cloud thickness?

Condensation is something I don't know what to for. I've heard the calc archetype referenced but not seen the actual calcs. Not familiar with it.

 

[DontTalkDT]

Condensation is just reverse vaporization. Just apply the latent heat of vaoprisation on the water mass.

For a better result there are these formulas.


For cloud thickness I would add that 8000 to 11800m is for cumulonimbus clouds and the like. For other clouds that can be lower. We should probably list a few types of clouds, with description what they look like, and their particular height.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

OH. That kind of thickness. Yeah that's fine, I always use 9144 meters as a baseline (30000 feet). For many storm feats it may be difficult to tell what type of cloud due to most media just because art style making it "this is a lumpy black sky, obviously it is storming".

But yeah, we may want to add a page concerning general cloud feats since it has now expanded to include several distinct requirements, much like lightning feats.

 

[Kaltias]

Iirc if a cloud is creating lightning bolts, it's a cumulonimbus cloud. That could help when determining the thickness, maybe it's a good idea to write it somewhere

Edit: That's what Wikipedia says at least

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

We still use kinetic energy if someone legitimately uses wind manipulation to blow storm clouds away or pulls them closer.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Yes.

 

[Antvasima]

So have you reached a conclusion here, and if so, is anybody willing to adjust the instruction page accordingly?

 

[Antoniofer]

This thread is taking more time than the necessary, we should finish this before we forget about it. If I'm not mistaken, we only need to write the new rules, and maybe a thread about the calculations affected.

 

[Antvasima]

Agreed.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

I also agree. If an admin could write the suggestions above into a suitable rewriting of the rules, I think we're done.

As for calcs affected, I think the most notable change is against any calculation that treats forming an otherwise normal storm over a set timeframe. Ninjago's Low 7-B would default to High 7-C, for example, as the Low 7-B came from a recalc of a CAPE feat.

How should we handle planetary storms, however? They may have an argument for KE considering they extend and expand across the planet (typically) once forming. They may be the only exception, actually.

 

[Antoniofer]

I think they still fall for forming rather than movement, if is planetary then more of the current mass of clouds in the planet would appears; even less if they cover the planet since there's no place where the clouds moved unless someone would bring moving from space that is impossible.

 

[Antvasima]

Admins don't tend to handle rewriting calculation rules. It is up to the calc group members.

 

[Antoniofer]

Admins don't tend to handle rewriting calculation rules. It is up to the calc group members.

I think he refers to the new rules in general, not the changes to the calculations.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, I am the wrong person to ask. Calculations are not my area.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Fair enough. So I think storms like Pokemon and God of War will also need looking at if they don't have a back-up feat. D&D's feat already has a CAPE value and a backup High 6-A feat. These are all that I can think of right now.

 

[Antvasima]

DontTalkDT is good at rewriting calculation rules. You could ask him to comment here again via his message wall if you wish.

 

[Antvasima]

I have asked DontTalkDT for help.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Alright. Thank you. Once the rules are in place, an effort should be made at seeing which verses scale to storms at some tier and see if said scaling is acceptable under our basic rule changes.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay.

 

[Andytrenom]

@Bambu Should that be discussed in other thread? Regarding Which verses are going to be affected and which are not?

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Which thread?

 

[Andytrenom]

Should there be a new thread for determining which storm calcs need to be revised.