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Canopus High 2-A

The demons in DeSu 2 are absolutely the real things, there's no reason to assume otherwise. The demons act, think, talk and have their own goals, they hunt down humans independant of their summoner, for example, the demons you summon at the start of the game, Botis, Bifrons, Lilith, the Frost Five, Kama, Shiva, Trumpeter and many others. The notion that demons act like "stands" without personality is directly contradicted within the first few minutes of the game.
 
Pretty much:

Even in Dx2, while the Demons you control seem to be dependent on their summoner, they don't really compare to Stands. They can be found around, they have different levels of intelligence, they have free will, different goals, and personalities, possess and trick other humans, some of them are just inhabitants of the Demon Realm, and pretty much every sidequest shows it, from the storylines of every Dx2 to the demons in the various monthly storylines, to the ones in the Aura Gate 2.

Heck, with a lot of the lower tier ones, to capture them you have to directly talk to them, and in the trivia and compendium, they tell personally you small facts about themselves. And the main antagonists are demons themselves.

At best I'd say that not every demon is the real thing, and that some to a lot of them are just spawns.

But I think I've derailed enough from the main topic, so I'll stop.
 
A fuckton of SMT games feature "Stand Demons" with no personality of self control and who don't scale to the real deal.
 
LukaSolosYourVerse said:
Polaris and Beelzebub are never even compared in DeSu 2 so it isn't really possible to say one is specifically portrayed above the other, the closest we have to anything like that is Polaris being able to control a void that swallows and erases demons.
Click to expand...
Beelzebub isn't even actually killed by the main cast in DeSu2, and just disappears after his defeat because he was impressed by the Protagonists' strength, all while basically laughing it off. Unlike Polaris, who was canonically destroyed for good in the final battle (As far as I remember, anyways, I haven't touched Devil Survivor in general for a while)

Now, I do agree that saying that the Demons are just Stands is a bit of an exaggeration, but if we go by Dx2, many of the Demons we fight and control are just their forms that are spawned in order to fight you. Lucifer himself is a boss in Dx2 but it's obviously not the actual Lucifer.

Besides, isn't the Anime it's own separate continuity? If that is the case I don't think feats from it should be used.
 
2-A, possibly High 2-A is safer as the only thing implying that Providence transcends Akasha to that level is one scan that can be interpreted different ways.
 
Canopus is outright High 2-A. Existing above > existing outside. It's literally High 2-A. The Chaos Force is no longer High 2-A because it doesn't exist above the multiverse, it only exists outside of it and encompasses it. That's a big difference.
 
And that rating is extremely generous considering there's one scan for Canopus that doesn't even mention transcending, just existing beyond.
 
Not everything will be spoon fed to you. The multiverse is nothing but data to Canopus. That's sufficient enough to confirm it transcends it.
 
Canopus exists beyond a realm that views 4D time spaces as data.

>4-D Universes

>Akasha Stratum where 4D reality is nothing but data

>Providence where Canopus resides, existing beyond even the Akasha Stratum

Keep in mind it was originally Low 1-C for this, before it was knocked down to High 2-A. Now people want to knock it down to 2-A.

I'm now worried about how many verses are actually downplayed because of this...
 
You are specifically looking for the word transcend in spite of the context that = transcendence. It's not on me to show you a word that isn't used, nor is that word required to suggest transcendence.

Could the AP description be better detailed? Yes. But Miyako outright says Canopus exists completely outside a dimension where 4D time-spaces are nothing but data. The context is all there to suggest Canopus is 5-dimensional. He isn't just outside the multiverse, he's outside a realm that views the multiverse as information.
 
I have no issue with believing in High 2-A, considering the sort of series SMT is, and I certainly wouldn't use my own beliefs as a argument.

But fine. If you really want to, we can ignore the fact that there has only been one scan shown combined throughout this entire thread that supports Canopus. If there is context that supports this, you should post it, and I'll explain my other misgivings later.
 
I am in fact, not specifically looking for the term "transcend", but anything that would equate to it in any context. There has been no such context given.
 
I just gave it to you.

The Akasha Stratum exists above entire universal space-time continuums and views them like data recorded in the Akashic Records.

Providence exists above even that. This is where Canny resides.


Universal time spaces  Akasha Stratum which views the universes as records of data  Providence (which is above Akasha Stratum)

Canopus is above the entire DeSu 2 cosmology, not just the universal time-spaces.
 
That context is insufficient. Other than the fact it doesn't include any actual scans from the game, there are numerous problems with it in regards to our wiki standards, which I'll elaborate on in a bit.
 
The standards you speak of aren't even real standards. Someone probably mistook one verse not being High 2-A for being outside all time space or something as a "standard" when it's not. It depends on how the words are used, context, etc.

If you want scans, fine. Since Matt and Ultima don't seem to be that interested in DeSu 2 I'll include a DeSu 2 cosmology post in my (massive) Persona blog as a bonus.

I only ask you please be patient.
 
I would still like to voice my current issues if it's all the same to you, but I'd be willing to wait until your blog to apply any tiering changes.
 
Sera EX said:
If you want scans, fine. Since Matt and Ultima don't seem to be that interested in DeSu 2 I'll include a DeSu 2 cosmology post in my (massive) Persona blog as a bonus.
Click to expand...
I would recommend the blog be named "various SMT stuff blog" if its featuring both Persona and DS2 stuff
 
I'll keep this short.

1. If we really were to use the interpretation being above data as being transcendent, Polaris can't be 2-A. If she transcends the physical matter of the multiverse, she's Low 2-C. If she transcends the data of all space and time, she would be High 2-A via transcending the multiverse. Not a problem so much as a connected issue.

2. Data isn't actually something that's on a different dimensional level. It exists on the same level of existence as the person viewing it, unless stated otherwise.

3. It is perfectly feasible to manipulate data without being on a higher dimensional level, otherwise all Information Manipulation would be 4-D. Therefore, we shouldn't assume a dimensional jump without explicit evidence or more context.
 
2 - It is a case by case topic not a fact. With the proper analogy, it is not. Likewise, it is a higher being viewing lower world like Data just like we view computer figures/drawing as data (2-) so being on the same dimensional level for data is not always true.
 
Elizhaa said:
2 - It is a case by case topic not a fact. With the proper analogy, it is not. Likewise, it is a higher being viewing lower world like Data just like we view computer figures/drawing as data (2-) so being on the same dimensional level for data is not always true.
Click to expand...
And this lacks any sort of evidence that could prove it to be so in this case.
 
I think you also took the data analogy for transcendence way too far for 3. It would be False analogy fallacy for Canopus' case.

It is not a false analogy, as the data of reality itself is actually what Polaris controls.
 
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