Canonization of Blazblue: Cross Tag Battle

[Strife304]

I understand that the idea of some of the other verses getting a piece of the scaling pie is enticing, but please save that for your own thread, assuming this gets accepted.

That said.. I'm not sure if there are anymore mods that can be tagged. The few people who needed any further elaboration seem preoccupied. So if anyone else can be brought on to review everything provided that would be greatly appreciated.

I'd rather not bloat the thread and lose the main points.

 

[Theglassman12]

Finally back from exams, now I can focus on CRTs.

@Strife304 Can you give me exact quotes on how the Phantom fields work in BBTAG that wasn't elaborated on in Xblaze Lost Memories? Because imposing laws is something Nobody did in like every other area in that VN.

You do realize this shoots your argument in the foot because your entire premise on canonizing BBTAG is it brings new information. If it doesn't bring new information then it's just further proof it's not canon.

The riddle games made by Nobody, an Embryo which Souichiro Unomaru literally refers to the Embryo as Phenomena Intervention when talking to Es about them.

I don't really see how that line about Mori wanting a fun story for those not interested in fighting games has anything to do with TAG's canonicity here, he just says he wants the best for both worlds for people who don't enjoy just playing the fighting game.

Yeah given how a majority of the character interactions focus a lot more on one game series interacting with another this doesn't really tell me much about canonicity, all this says is just "I want to have some way to have fun interaction with the characters in different work".

I'm sorry what? Didn't you say in the OP that the reason this game is canon is because of new information?

What I am interested in, however, is the possibility of having Cross Tag Battle being acknowledged as a one-sided crossover on the site. The reason being is because it reveals valuable information for the series' lore, abilities, and generally allowed the original creators more freedom in how they expressed the Blazblue cast's variety of characters and their quirks.

The former part of this statement I've yet to see beyond just some statements on Phantom fields being elaborated, which I'd like to see the scans to back this up because they hardly are elaborated beyond what Xblaze Lost Memories did. The latter doesn't really mean anything in canonicity, especially when at no point in any of the mainline stories does the characters reference the events of Cross Tag at all.

@TheKingStrategist13 you do realize the jumbled character placement in the timeline still opens up plot holes like how does Naoto not recognize ragna in the end of CF despite both of them tag teaming Susanoo and against everyone else in the roster at the end of 2.0's story, unless there's some elaboration in this story that expands on BB lore that the other parts of the story didn't do I don't really see the connection.

 

[Strife304]

Can you give me exact quotes on how the Phantom fields work in BBTAG that wasn't elaborated on in Xblaze Lost Memories? Because imposing laws is something Nobody did in like every other area in that VN.

I've already provided links with quotes and my own explanations. Nobody's feats, and Unomaru's statements are irrelevant to the point at hand, and I refuse to continue arguing the semantics of what's "new" and "what did it first". It's pointless and becoming a circular argument derailing from Mori's word of god statements and my true premise.

You do realize this shoots your argument in the foot because your entire premise on canonizing BBTAG is it brings new information. If it doesn't bring new information then it's just further proof it's not canon.

I'm sorry what? Didn't you say in the OP that the reason this game is canon is because of new information?

No, you've been completely misrepresenting my stance and attacking a straw man ever since I used the concept of the Phantom Field as an example. You're outright ignoring the author intentions in favor of whatever "new information" you'd like to see.

If we are to compare Xblaze: Lost Memories' take on a Phantom Field and compare it to TAG's, without even having to quote anything in specific, TAG's is demonstrably different from XB:LM's and therefore brings forth "new" and "important" information. You cannot use offensive magic in XB:LM's Phantom Field, in TAG's you can seithr composing the phantom field can be molded into clones that act out the observed data from who's form they take. This is already new from what XB:LM shows us.

Not sure how else to say this, but the very fact that Mori even alludes to a what-if/spin-off possibly having important information, that he himself worked on, should hardly leave any room for debate on whether or not its canon. I dont think it's even appropriate to state that something isnt canon if it doesnt bring "new information" to the table. Especially when in the face of the author saying why they made said product to begin with.

@TheKingStrategist13 you do realize the jumbled character placement in the timeline still opens up plot holes like how does Naoto not recognize ragna in the end of CF despite both of them tag teaming Susanoo and against everyone else in the roster at the end of 2.0's story, unless there's some elaboration in this story that expands on BB lore that the other parts of the story didn't do I don't really see the connection.

I literally explained this, too. Debunked that misconception. The Plot of Episode 1 literally demands the participants be from contradictory points in time, and the narrative also implies why certain characters are left out as they'd put a swift end to the antagonist's plans. System can also pull anyone or anything, from anywhere at whatever point in time, so an argument on continuity is also moot.

Lastly, using the argument of "Naoto and Ragna didnt know each other in CF" is downright stupid when TAG came out after Central Fiction. What weakens your point further is the fact Ragna and Naoto both recognize each other in Episode 2, so there's hardly a contradiction to be had there.

Ill make an addendum to what I said before about TAG's placement; it's not a contradiction, it's just ambiguous. And why wouldn't it be? It's in a Phantom Field, a secluded space outside of time constructed by an Observer's wish. The participants can, and more reasonably are, a version of the original cast plucked from one of the infinite possibilities that compose the verse.

I'm resting my case here. I humbly request that you tag some more mods to review what's been discussed and give whatever your verdict is.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

I agree with this btw

 

[Abu2411]

I agree with the OP

 

[Lonkitt]

Been keeping an eye on this thread and I've come to agree with the OP. The arguments are pretty well constructed

 

[Shadow-Ragna]

So far it seems the OP has a point and seems likely though still neutral but leaning towards agreeing with this.

Also Rachel from what I can remember seen not to be surprised in seeing Naoto or asking what he is doing here, also that Hazama doesn't seem to notice or respond to Naoto. Since Naoto kept asking Hazama, Rachel and even Relius questions on who they are.

But as you said "The participants can, and more reasonably are, a version of the original cast plucked from one of the infinite possibilities that compose the verse." Indicating that its "versions" of the BBTAG cast plucked from the infinite possibilities.

For example my first comment explained the continuity issues:

The BlazBlue roster is current as of BlazBlue: Central Fiction; indicators include the presence of Es (who made her debut in said game), Noel's new uniform without the hat and Hazama lacking any Terumi-esque mannerisms. Which is good sense maybe this was sometime early Central Fiction. Which makes sense as this would be the cast in the CF point in time. Though issues come up since Platinum still houses Trinity's soul, making it unclear when exactly this game is supposed to be happening. Since in CF, is where Trinity was in Mucro Algesco: Yukianesa. So my guess Celica and Platinum was from the CP point?

Given that Terumi is past tense of being dead and Susanoo's later inclusion as treated as a shell of its former self given Hazama mentioned about the Susano'o in past term as if the events already happened and Hazama panicked seeing the 3% Susano'o that seemingly beaten rest of the characters until Naoto and Ragna came to save the day.

Also everyone remembers Ragna where in BlazBlue: Central Fiction he erased himself making no one remember him.

So my guess the BlazBlue characters are in an era of mixture of CP and CF.

 

[Nobody234]

About the Naoto bit.... isn't his situation really messing up with continuity?

Like he doesn't recognize Rachel in CF while also doesn't recognize her again in TAG which make that no matter which order TAG and CF take place, it will just contradict each other

Like if he meet Rachel in CF first why doesn't he recognize Rachel in TAG? If he meet her in TAG first why doesn't he recognize her in CF?

Even if he get taken out from some another point of time outside the CF and TAG is still doesn't make any sense that neither version recognize her in the respective game

 

[Everything12]

I disagree with this, it doesn't seem like it actually brings anything important or new to justify it being canonical.

 

[NaruRiasUzumaki]

Hmmm! En-Eins, Arcana Hearts, Senran Kagura, and Under in Night scales to BB and Persona. In extra story, 3% Susanoo (copy of the original Susanoo aka Yuuki Terumi) obliterated the rest of the group and then get Donut'd by Ragna the Princess and Naoto the Prince.

Not even everyone can see Terumi in front of Hakumen (unconscious) except for BB characters include Ruby Rose because Mori's favorite.

If I may you don't mind. Let me ask you this does CTB takes place before CF in timelines or sperate like DC and Marvel multiverse?

I'm just curious.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Hmmm! En-Eins, Arcana Hearts, Senran Kagura, and Under in Night scales to BB and Persona. In extra story, 3% Susanoo (copy of the original Susanoo aka Yuuki Terumi) obliterated the rest of the group and then get Donut'd by Ragna the Princess and Naoto the Prince.

Not even everyone can see Terumi in front of Hakumen (unconscious) except for BB characters include Ruby Rose because Mori's favorite.

If I may you don't mind. Let me ask you this does CTB takes place before CF in timelines or sperate like DC and Marvel multiverse?

I'm just curious.

CTB takes place in its own Phantom Field created by System XX, with the cast plucked from their own home universes and many of them explicitly pulled from different points across time, such is the case with a number of Blazblue characters

 

[TheKingStrategist13]

Hmmm! En-Eins, Arcana Hearts, Senran Kagura, and Under in Night scales to BB and Persona. In extra story, 3% Susanoo (copy of the original Susanoo aka Yuuki Terumi) obliterated the rest of the group and then get Donut'd by Ragna the Princess and Naoto the Prince.

To be fair (Keep in mind I'm not a expert in BB Powerscaling, and more of a amateur), A much more powerful Susano'o fought a Ragna at a similar (though probably not the exact same) time frame, so Ragna coming in and crushing 3% Susano'o makes sense I think. That said, this game isn't even being used for Powerscaling in the series anyways.

 

[NaruRiasUzumaki]

I see then thank you for replying. TheKing and WeeklyB

 

[Strife304]

About the Naoto bit.... isn't his situation really messing up with continuity?

Like he doesn't recognize Rachel in CF while also doesn't recognize her again in TAG which make that no matter which order TAG and CF take place, it will just contradict each other

Like if he meet Rachel in CF first why doesn't he recognize Rachel in TAG? If he meet her in TAG first why doesn't he recognize her in CF?

Even if he get taken out from some another point of time outside the CF and TAG is still doesn't make any sense that neither version recognize her in the respective game

When Naoto first appears in CF that's their first time ever meeting, and she sooner reminds him of Raquel before actually getting to know her or anything. So it actually does make sense that he doesn't know her.. because before then, he didn't.

You also have to understand the fact that infinite possibilities means that it can be any random CF Naoto who just hasn't encountered Rachel yet in his ventures. Couple this with the fact that Blazblue's sense of time is not linear, as the story of one timeline unfolds, another could begin, or end, simultaneouslyーthere is no reason to believe in a continuity or any conflicting of it.

Even if you want to believe that his memories are to discredit any notion of continuity, he finds her familiar in TAG.

 

[Strife304]

If I may you don't mind. Let me ask you this does CTB takes place before CF in timelines or sperate like DC and Marvel multiverse?

It's described as a singularity removed from the flow of time. Which is why I keep hammering the point of continuity being somewhat moot.

 

[NaruRiasUzumaki]

I forgot about that. Hey Strife, I agree with your OP's stated.

 

[Strife304]

I disagree with this, it doesn't seem like it actually brings anything important or new to justify it being canonical.

Okay, "important" or "new" information aside. Can you explain how it wouldn't be canon, or what exactly would warrant disagreement when the game also fits the site's standards?

For cross-verse scaling to be considered to be used between two separate works of fiction based on author statements, all of the following requirements must be fulfilled:

• The works must be written by a single same person.
• There should not be considerable contradictions in the respective displayed power levels for the compared characters.
• The statements need to clearly have been intended seriously.
• The compared characters must share a similar nature in terms of types of powers.

• Mori himself worked on the game and its story.

• The Blazblue characters scale consistently to each other.

• Word of God intended for this to be taken serious, if you refer to the Q&As.

• The power is the same one's that have been used since the beginning of Blazblue.

New and important information is one very trivial aspect of all that I've brought forth. In none of the rules set by VSBW does it demand for new and important information, and if it does, please show me. I find it strange that this one thing makes or breaks the case I'm making, especially when "new" is relative to the game's release.

I've also been showing how the information in TAG wasn't in Xblaze: Lost Memories, and have yet to been disproven on that, too. No one has shown the Xblaze Phantom Field being used in the same way as how it's used in TAG.

 

[Shadow-Ragna]

Though with Naoto I agree since this is a Naoto who probably was somewhere in early CF as Strife said since he did mention that Rachel seems familiar kinda like what he said to Rachel in CF. So my guess this was Naoto just before he arrived in the CF era, since he didn't seem to have much knowledge and interaction with characters like Makoto Nanaya, Noel and even Celica.

Plus with Ragna it seems he is remembered by the cast and he remembers them, so my guess it was the CF era Ragna as he seems calmer and much more heroic given CP-CF Ragna was more nicer than he was in CT and CS era. Also in CF Ragna washes a lot of BlazBlue characters and even strong enough to be considered extremely powerful. Plus Susano'o was considered dead so Hazama is post CF since Hazama fell into the Boundary and was unaffected.

Jin Kisaragi is definitely CP era since in CF he was bedridden due to Semi-Black Beast Ragna's attack, and when he got into action when was Trinity's spirit was with Jin, and since Trinity's spirit was with Platinum and Jin doesn't have Trinity so they are both CP era.

Also Nine the Phantom seems to be alive and much nicer she looks like her CF self but her personality is more like her Dark War self. But she has knowledge of what happened in the BB series. So my guess she is from a period that she was brought to her senses earlier in CF and is heroic.

Celica is there so she is in her CP era since in CF she vanished away and died.

So as stated before the BB cast are mostly the CP and CF era. Though mostly CF era.

Though this can work with the other series characters as they are plucked from different points in time:
Where for Persona series (Persona 3 and 4) was taken sometime after The Persona 4 Arena and Persona 4: Arena Ultimax since the cast seem to be taken from the events of the first Arena game, with the current roster. As the fighters do, however, seem to come from after those games, as reference is made to Mitsuru, Aegis and Labrys, but it's also clear Yu hasn't seen the others in a while. So my guess this was them few weeks after the Persona 4 fighting games.

The Under Night in-Birth roster is seemingly current given their series only having one game to their name. Which is frustrating given since 2012 we haven't had a genuine sequel just updates so the whole area of what state the UNIB cast is from. Though with Hyde's interactions with Gordeau in the Under Night route in BBTAG suggests that Hyde's arcade route in his game that ends with him fighting Hilda is the canon ending of that Night, but that it was some time ago in-universe. The fact that he recognizes Carmine, when their encounter only occurs in the latter's Arcade Ladder, suggests that other Arcade run-ins will also have happened. Though, given that he and Vatista not only know each other, but are on rather friendly terms, it's also possible that Vatista's arcade is the canon route, especially since Hyde still fights Hilda there (but loses). Hilda's later inclusion seems to confirm this is the case. So my guess it would be a fusion of Hyde and Vatista's arcade stories are mixed in and canon.

The RWBY heroines, is pretty much straight forward as since their costumes and the fact that Yang still has her right arm can attest to, are taken before the events of Volume 3's finale and subsequent time skip in their universe. Since everyone is pretty much in the Beacon era saga stuff, though the thing that throws a wrench is Neo's presence. Since she is another muddying factor, as she's in possession of Roman Torchwick's hat and changes from her default outfit into her Volume 6 one in one of her victory animations, which can only be the case after the Time Skip due to his death. So my guess Neo is plucked from post Volume 3 era and placed in BBTAG, and it helps hilarious that Neo doesn't talk so that way it doesn't cause much issues.

 

[Theglassman12]

@Strife304 you’re literally the one that brought up the fact that new material is brought up for Tag to justify its canonicity.

A “what if” scenario has never once been something Mori references to other works in the series, especially manga or novels or the other VNs that exist. At best he’s flat out said they’re canon, and in the actual mainline games the alternate paths you take in the games are stated to be alternate possibilities, both by the game itself and Terumi. What’s Mori’s intentions are is completely irrelevant if he fails to bring up anything new that justifies TAG being canon in the first place. Keep in mind Dissidia was rejected for being used to scale for Final Fantasy for a long time until we got the evidence to support that Dissidia is canon and references the events in other games, including the mainline titles. The same logic applies here.

It doesn’t matter if TAG came after CF, you’re literally arguing that the events did happen and isn’t a random oneshot, if it is canonical then Naoto would’ve recognized Ragna in the events of TAG, which he doesn’t. So unless you have any statements that TAG is referenced in any of the mainline series this isn’t helping you.

 

[Nobody234]

This still didn't make sense, because he still didn't recognize her in both game, sure that he feel familiar with Rachel but that's probably because Rachel similarity with Raquel more than anything.

He also doesn't recognize Celica in both game which is also bring even more contradictions to the table.

And speaking of Nine, she's also not making any sense either, Nine wear the attire of her cf self but act like she's is a phase shift era Nine right?

But the thing is Nine become crazy in CF is because she get consume by anger toward the god after knowing that they been repeating the dark war over and over again, not because of corruption, so even if she's from the early CF after the mind eater get remove it still not going to add up because she should be full of vengeance by this point regardless if she's free from mind eater or not.

 

[Theglassman12]

@Nobody234 are you responding to me or Strife?

 

[Nobody234]

@Nobody234 are you responding to me or Strife?

Strife and Shadowragna.
I'm going to make myself clear, i don't agree with the canonization because there's so many contradiction in character writing between CF and TAG, to the point that it will just contradict themselves regardless which version of the character get brought to TAG.

 

[Comicgyal]

This still didn't make sense, because he still didn't recognize her in both game, sure that he feel familiar with Rachel but that's probably because Rachel similarity with Raquel more than anything.

He also doesn't recognize Celica in both game which is also bring even more contradictions to the table.

And speaking of Nine, she's also not making any sense either, Nine wear the attire of her cf self but act like she's is a phase shift era Nine right?

But the thing is Nine become crazy in CF is because she get consume by anger toward the god after knowing that they been repeating the dark war over and over again, not because of corruption, so even if she's from the early CF after the mind eater get remove it still not going to add up because she should be full of vengeance by this point regardless if she's free from mind eater or not.

These aren’t contradictions. Each character are taken from different points in the series, they aren’t all the final (end of CF) versions of themselves. Naoto is his beginning of CF version, which is why he doesn’t recognize anyone.

Yes Nine wears her CF clothes, but personality wise she’s different. That isn’t much of a contradiction, as it is a design choice. There is no actual contradiction between characters, motives, or personality. As it was never established that every Blazblue character is their CF version.

 

[Comicgyal]

A “what if” scenario has never once been something Mori references to other works in the series, especially manga or novels or the other VNs that exist. At best he’s flat out said they’re canon, and in the actual mainline games the alternate paths you take in the games are stated to be alternate possibilities, both by the game itself and Terumi. What’s Mori’s intentions are is completely irrelevant if he fails to bring up anything new that justifies TAG being canon in the first place. Keep in mind Dissidia was rejected for being used to scale for Final Fantasy for a long time until we got the evidence to support that Dissidia is canon and references the events in other games, including the mainline titles. The same logic applies here.

I really disagree with this line of logic. The idea of an “alternate possibility” that isn’t the main possibility, is the exact same as a “what if?” Scenario, he just used different wording. There doesn’t need to be anything new that’s presented in Crosstag, for it to be considered canon. Mori himself stated that it’s part of the Blazblue series, which would make it canon to Blazblue. The issues that Dissidia went through are irrelevant here, because Dissidia includes every FF character in a massive crossover, and you all were trying to scale it to their main universe counterparts. That would absolutely need inverse acknowledgment due to how massive of a scale that is. But Crosstag is as Mori stated, another title in the Blazblue series, that retains all previous Blazblue concepts, and even alters them in a way that can be interpreted as “New”

The fact that they can fight in the Phantom field, as Strife mentioned, is new. Or rather something that had never been presented before in the mainline title, so that fits. Tag coming after CF does matter, because it would be impossible for CF to reference tag, so that “Rule” which isn’t on the crossover page, shouldn’t apply here. Naoto not knowing Ragna doesn’t make it not canonical either, when we’re in a series that makes it very clear that there are infinite possibilities, where anything and everything can happen. Every alternate possibility is canon to Blazblue, so there’s no difference here. Crosstag doesn’t need to reference past Blazblue games, and past Blazblue games don’t need to reference crosstag. Especially since all alternate possibilities are only referenced within the game they come from, not in any future games.

 

[Strife304]

A “what if” scenario has never once been something Mori references to other works in the series, especially manga or novels or the other VNs that exist. At best he’s flat out said they’re canon, and in the actual mainline games the alternate paths you take in the games are stated to be alternate possibilities, both by the game itself and Terumi. What’s Mori’s intentions are is completely irrelevant if he fails to bring up anything new that justifies TAG being canon in the first place.

In what interview or Q&A is any of this stated. If Mori's intentions are completely irrelevant, why are you even asserting what he considers canon? You literally don't care about the author intent, what more is there to say?

Keep in mind Dissidia was rejected for being used to scale for Final Fantasy for a long time until we got the evidence to support that Dissidia is canon and references the events in other games, including the mainline titles. The same logic applies here.

No, Glass. I dont care about why Dissidia got rejected because it is not Blazblue. Dissidia combines several verses who only share the name "final fantasy". With their diverse casting and own original cosmologies, its understandable why that would seem to cause a problem.

In stark contrast, TAG uses the same exact characters from the same roster we've been playing with for over 10 years in the same four games, with the same cosmology, powers, and concepts. Your example would work if we were debating whether or not Xblaze is canon to Blazblue, but we aren't. So that's a terrible comparison.

It doesn’t matter if TAG came after CF, you’re literally arguing that the events did happen and isn’t a random oneshot, if it is canonical then Naoto would’ve recognized Ragna in the events of TAG, which he doesn’t. So unless you have any statements that TAG is referenced in any of the mainline series this isn’t helping you.

No, it does matter, Glass. How can anything in TAG be referenced in any of the mainline games that precedes it in conception and release? You're literally asking for the impossible, which a lack of this evidence you're demanding doesn't make TAG any less canon, by the way. Both by Mori's statements and the site standards that are conveniently being ignored.

I dont know what you mean by a "random one shot", but ive said several times now that the story is isolated in it's own space, which you should know since you're so knowledgeable on Phantom Fields. Even if we flip the argument around, Episode 2 of TAG is a literal parody on the events of CF with Rachel looking toward Ragna and Naoto respectively calling them both a "possibility" to stop this skin cell Susano'o. So if a game, with word of god statements, paying homage to its predecessorsーwhich you just asked for in that Dissidia exampleーisnt enough to get through to you, what will?

I've explained at least three times now why characters don't recognize each other. If you cannot fathom that a world composed of infinite, branching realities, housing their own phenomonen that occurs regardless of another worldーalso has an iteration of a character who just hasn't interacted, or even encountered a certain group of people in said world, this verse needs to be downgraded and forgotten.

 

[Nobody234]

These aren’t contradictions. Each character are taken from different points in the series, they aren’t all the final (end of CF) versions of themselves. Naoto is his beginning of CF version, which is why he doesn’t recognize anyone.

Yes Nine wears her CF clothes, but personality wise she’s different. That isn’t much of a contradiction, as it is a design choice. There is no actual contradiction between characters, motives, or personality. As it was never established that every Blazblue character is their CF version.

No him being taken from early CF will not add up since the first character he meet in CF is Celica and then in TAG he doesn't recognize her despite he should already met her before.

Then there's the Rachel one which again it doesn't matter if he get fish out from early CF since he doesn't recognize Rachel in both TAG and CF.

Say he meet with Rachel in CF first then he should already recognize her in TAG but he's not.

Then there's the second scenario we can take here which is if he went through TAG first and get back to CF at the end of TAG also will not work since once again Naoto doesn't recognize her in CF.

Rachel demeanor toward him is also way too drastic where in CF Rachel is antagonistic toward him because his existence slowly overwrite Ragna existence where's in TAG Rachel treat him more in line with how he treats everyone else and not as bloodlusted toward him.

And again on Nine, it just doesn't add up writing wise because even if it not the CF version, Nine spent most of the C series before CF being mind controlled so is not really consistent.

Then there's so much more contradictions like Hazama and Es

And how some character behave here that they feel outright flanderize to some extent.

So yeah i'm not convice

 

[CurrySenpai]

Question, why can’t BBTAG just be its own stand alone thing with its own scaling.

Like it’s main idea and concepts are from BlazBlue but besides that it has a lot of original content.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Question, why can’t BBTAG just be its own stand alone thing with its own scaling.

Like it’s main idea and concepts are from BlazBlue but besides that it has a lot of original content.

It is

 

[Nobody234]

Question, why can’t BBTAG just be its own stand alone thing with its own scaling.

Like it’s main idea and concepts are from BlazBlue but besides that it has a lot of original content.

This, this is the best solution to this if you ask me, rather than trying to make TAG fit in BB canon, them being a standalone that has no connection to the main BB canon except for sharing character is the best solution

 

[CurrySenpai]

This, this is the best solution to this if you ask me, rather than trying to make TAG fit in BB canon, them being a standalone that has no connection to the main BB canon except for sharing character is the best solution

Yeah, I feel this would be a good compromise/have the least complications. Characters would already be like Tier 2 since the crystal thingy antagonist (forgot what it’s called) can merge worlds.

 

[Theglassman12]

@Comicgyal No it's not, give me an exact quote where Mori has in anyway shape or form labeled any of the alternate possibilities as a "what-if", because he's never done this before with the adaptations nor the side stories or alternate paths. No it is 100% relevant here, it's called a standard, where you apply the same rules and logic across other verses, if Dissidia needs canonical statements to be used in the mainline pages the same applies for Cross Tag.

What do you mean them fighting in a phantom field is new? You do realize the dimension Nine was in for the Act 1 of Central Fiction that everyone fought her in was a Phantom Field right? So this doesn't even count as something new when that's something Phantom Fields have always done. Yes it does make it non canonical because there would be no reason for Naoto after the memory wipes, which he wasn't affected at all btw, would let him forget Ragna of all people, who helped him defeat a 3% Susanoo from destroying everything. If you want TAG to be canon, have it be referenced in mainline stuff.

@Strife304 if you read the end of Phase Shift 0 there's literally an authors note from Mori where he verbatim says the novels are canon and part of the Blazblue world, and how he wanted to expand on the story of the series with the novels. Nothing about them being "what-ifs" at all, which is a first for this series given again, nothing else prior was ever labeled as a what if.

Well you should because it's called standards/criteria to use crossover content. Dissidia had to go through massive amounts of evidence to prove that it's canon to be used on the main pages. Also yeah, they used the same powers and all that jazz, so does almost every other crossover ever that has numerous characters come together, that doesn't automatically make it canon to the main story of their respective series at all.

You say that like Dark War isn't a thing where they can have a route where anyone that was in Cross Tag could reference the events of that game. It's not impossible to have someone just reference a crossover like it's a thing that happened in their stories, hell God of War Ragnarok literally has Kratos confirm that was in Playstation All Stars Battle Royale in his own game, so saying it's impossible for mainline Blazblue to reference Tag isn't true. Mori's statement which only says is part of the series, and a "what-if". If you can prove that Mori references other side materials as what-ifs and are indeed canon then I'll drop this point.

Random one shot as in a random event that's an isolated thing not connected to the mainline series in terms of story or continuity. What part of Rachel referencing them as a possibility proves Cross Tag is canon? You're not really elaborating here on how it proves its canonicity whatsoever.

You do realize characters like Celica and Noel and even Naoto to an extent due to them being Chronophantasmas wouldn't really apply here as they're stated to be singularities in their existence right? The whole infinite possibilities part doesn't even apply to them at all, as for downgrading the series, I mean you can try to downgrade the series, but you'd also have to claim Relius, Rachel and Kokonoe, essentially some of the most intelligent and reliable source of information in the entire series are completely wrong about the cosmology. So this whole "the series needs to be downgraded" would require massive leaps in logic.

 

[Shadow-Ragna]

I mean correct me if I am wrong, the reason why Rachel was so aggressive towards Naoto and want him gone was because of the situation everyone was in and that in CF Ragna's existence was slowly being erased due to being confused for Naoto Kurogane.

Though in Cross Tag Battle, Ragna seems to have vanished in the Extra Episode Arcade where from what I remember Rachel seems nonplussed by it, and treated Ragna coming back to save everyone at the last second as a "Must you always run off on your own" type of thing. Where Naoto and Ragna double teamed and killed the 3% Susano'o.







Also this video pretty much showed the entire ending of the Extra Arcade of BBTAG.

 

[Shadow-Ragna]

Also I did state various characters from BB are mostly from a mixture of CP and CF era since characters are somewhat different. Like Jin is able to move around without Trinity's spirit by his side which makes him his CP era and this helps with Trinity being within Platinum much like how she was pre-Central Fiction.

Also Hazama is VERY much after CF given he fell into the Boundary and was unaffected it seemed thus allowing him to remember everything. Hence why he knew about Susano'o and treated the events of Central Fiction in a past tense.

Nine the Phantom? Well I just think she might've been a possibility of which was a Nine that was brought out of her control a bit sooner and plucked into BBTAG era of events.



I feel like TAG would be after CF since Hazama stated events where CF happened in the past. And the other characters in BB were plucked from different possibilities.

 

[Shadow-Ragna]

Naoto might be a hard case due to his existence though I feel like its a "Naoto" from before entering the BB CF side of the story and ended up in TAG where he began first time interacting with the cast since he seems to have met the BBTAG cast for the first time.

Hence this interaction where Celica and Naoto met for the first time in TAG, which hints that this Celica was plucked from the CP era of BB.

 

[Nobody234]

Naoto might be a hard case due to his existence though I feel like its a "Naoto" from before entering the BB CF side of the story and ended up in TAG where he began first time interacting with the cast since he seems to have met the BBTAG cast for the first time.

Hence this interaction where Celica and Naoto met for the first time in TAG, which hints that this Celica was plucked from the CP era of BB.

And then in CF both of them proceed to not recognize each other again which pretty much contradict this meeting because if that's the case both of them should already know each other in CF, but no they don't recognize each other.

Especially if this is CP Celica then she should already know who Naoto is in CF when they first met, but no she doesn't know him same goes for Naoto.

This is why i said that the character writing on both game contradict each other way too hard that it doesn't matter at which point in time they were taken, there's going to be way too much contradiction between the mainline game and TAG

 

[Shadow-Ragna]

By CP era I mean in the CP games where it was before the events of Central Fiction.

Plus Naoto doesn't seem to recognise Rachel at first since he remarks that Rachel reminds him of her (Raquel), and again in CF he says the same thing and then focuses on it.

Though for Celica one that one is quite hard to pin point, but again this feels like a collection of different periods of time versions of BB cast.

Plus infinite possibilities exist, though I feel like Tag happened after everything since it shows Es and Naoto Kurogane, as well as Susano'o. Also the inclusion of the Phantom Field.

 

[Nobody234]

Also I did state various characters from BB are mostly from a mixture of CP and CF era since characters are somewhat different. Like Jin is able to move around without Trinity's spirit by his side which makes him his CP era and this helps with Trinity being within Platinum much like how she was pre-Central Fiction.

Also Hazama is VERY much after CF given he fell into the Boundary and was unaffected it seemed thus allowing him to remember everything. Hence why he knew about Susano'o and treated the events of Central Fiction in a past tense.

Nine the Phantom? Well I just think she might've been a possibility of which was a Nine that was brought out of her control a bit sooner and plucked into BBTAG era of events.



I feel like TAG would be after CF since Hazama stated events where CF happened in the past. And the other characters in BB were plucked from different possibilities.

TAG after CF wouldn't make any sense either due to Naoto being a walking contradiction that didn't recognize any BB character he see which includes Hazama, where was in his arcade when Naoto meet him he recognized him and said that he turn his life into a living hell and he was so sure that he will survived falling through the boundary while Trinity said that he should not be able to survive it.

Fast forward to TAG and he once again like with most BB characters he see, not recognize Hazama at all while he should have met him before in CF by now.

Add to the fact that TAG naoto doesn't act like he has personal beef with him like he has in CF and CF Naoto has personal hatred toward Hazama that TAG doesn't have the theory about TAG taking place after CF fall apart.

Then there's the ending of bloodedge experience novel where a teenage Hazama appear in front of Relius which mean Naoto have met him before CF but TAG Naoto doesn't recognize him, i'm going to address the other point later

 

[MrHazama]

I'm at this point of not even sure on where I want to lean with the more I see both sides giving their own thoughts on the matter

I know I said that I that it was just a spin-off that doesn't have any connection to the main BB series, but wanted to be neutral just so I can have an open mind to the possibility

But now I'm not even sure

 

[Shadow-Ragna]

TAG after CF wouldn't make any sense either due to Naoto being a walking contradiction that didn't recognize any BB character he see which includes Hazama, where was in his arcade when Naoto meet him he recognized him and said that he turn his life into a living hell and he was so sure that he will survived falling through the boundary while Trinity said that he should not be able to survive it.

Fast forward to TAG and he once again like with most BB characters he see, not recognize Hazama at all while he should have met him before in CF by now.

Add to the fact that TAG naoto doesn't act like he has personal beef with him like he has in CF and CF Naoto has personal hatred toward Hazama that TAG doesn't have the theory about TAG taking place after CF fall apart.

Then there's the ending of bloodedge experience novel where a teenage Hazama appear in front of Relius which mean Naoto have met him before CF but TAG Naoto doesn't recognize him, i'm going to address the other point later

Good points hence why I am neutral on this just that both sides make decent points.

 

[TheKingStrategist13]

It seems like the opposition keep's asserting a idea of a single timeline here, whereas the supporter's are citing the existence of infinite possibilities, equating to infinite different versions of Character's... So for example, the version of Naoto we see here could be a different Naoto altogether from the one in CF. A character could be taken from a Alternate series of events that is similar to the main timeline, but not the same, and plucked into here.

Since the OP is only seeking to use this game for Lore rather than scaling, that could work, too.