Can current Goku resist genjutsu?

[Joseph619]

@Amexim- Disagreeing with others is fine, cursing at people is not. I will not indulge this further. However, genjutsu is treated as mind manipulation, not energy manipulation on the wiki, whether you like it or not. You can create a separate CRT to discuss it. You're not achieving anything here.

 

[Promestein]

Amexim, you have to watch what you say. Repeatedly insulting and belittling other users is against the rules. Given how much you've pushed it on just this thread in just a few posts, this is your only warning.

 

[Amexim]

My goal wasn't to achieve anything. I was stating my opinion on the matter. But again and again, you act as if you can't read or think. I've said several times that I am not trying to change anything as it comes to this wiki.

And frankly, I swear at people who blatantly disrespect me. My bad for disrespecting the disrespectful right back-- insulting my intelligence and then laughing at me, when you don't even seem to display the intelligence or respect that you expect from me. Don't try to play victim. But whatever. My apologies.

 

[Amexim]

The only person I will legitimately apologize to is EliminatorVenom. I mistook his snarky attitude for yours and wrongfully insulted him in your place, Joseph. My apologies Venom, sincerely.

 

[Amexim]

Those comments were directed at Joseph, not you Promestien. But ok. In my defense, and I do not care how childish it sounds, the way he typed is what set me off. It seemed like he was insulting me first, so I insulted him right back. And then he repeatedly insulted me and misrepresented my position as if I was an idiot. I think it's obvious why I got upset, even if I "misinterpreted" his intentions.

 

[Promestein]

Condescension isn't against the rules unless it's constant and obviously malicious. It's annoying and aggravating, yes, but it's not against the rules.

You're just being unnecessarily insulting, Amexim.

 

[Amexim]

So, that's... That's really inconsistent. Condescension is by definition insulting. There's no distinction. If my behavior is wrong, his should be as well, even if I can agree mine was a bit excessive.

 

[Akreious]

I'm still fairly sure my point of normal Genjutsu stands; Simply powering up would force all the chakra points to go back to normal due to the sudden surge in Ki/Chakra (Verse equalization). Tsukuyomi is a little more iffy, but almost all forms of pain is nothing new to Goku. Crushing, stabbing, slicing, blasting, beating, you name it, he probably already got hurt by it. While I can't make a case for Goku resisting Tsukuyomi, I CAN make a case about it not being at all as effective as it was against say, Kakashi. We also don't know how Tsukuyomi would affect life sensing or if Goku can simply just AoE blast everything around him if things get too crazy in the Tsukuyomi. We ALSO don't know if Goku can just brute-force his way through the Tsukuyomi as Ki has been attributed to be able to brute-force its way through many things.

I have no idea about Izanami.

 

[AKM sama]

Something which is related to this thread.

 

[Amexim]

To quote Celestial Pegasus; "In the case of transmutation, you need energy to convert one thing into another, and thus changing someone with say town level durability into a rock doesn't mean you can do the same to someone with planet level durability, would in this case be an NLF to say someone who only changed a person with town level durability, can do the same to one with planet level durability." The same can be said with moving the energy of someone with Country level AP as it would be with Universal AP. It would be a large claim to make when you talk about the nature of Hax. Most haxes effect durability to some degree anyway, just it bypasses it to a large extent. Read the beginning of this thread more to see what I mean.

 

[Lightning_XXI]

The Genjutsu is not a simple illusion, it is a manipulation of chakra in the enemy nervous system, if Goku has no Chakra network, he can not fall into Genjutsu, it´s simple

 

[Amexim]

Verse Equalization gives him some kind of Chakra Network though.

 

[Lightning_XXI]

Yes, but we know that this is just to give a slight chance to the characters

But we have to ask ourselves if Sasuke could put someone like Kaguya (5-B Chakra) and then think: if a planetary being is already difficult, what happens against a MFTL+ Universal being and "divine Chakra"?

 

[Akreious]

My point was that even if Goku had a chakra system, his power-up would force all the chakra points and the chakra being manipulated into their natural states. That's how you get released from Genjutsu in Naruto; by forcing all your points back to normal. The auras in Dragon Ball automatically do that.

 

[Lightning_XXI]

My point was that even if Goku had a chakra system, his power-up would force all the chakra points and the chakra being manipulated into their natural states. That's how you get released from Genjutsu in Naruto; by forcing all your points back to normal. The auras in Dragon Ball automatically do that.

This bro, very good comment

 

[Akreious]

Arigatou gozaimasu. XD

 

[YungManzi]

@Akreious

Simply powering up can't always be used to break out of certain genjutsu....You're assumng Goku would even realize he is trapped in genjutsu.(It's Not like low tier genjutsu would be very helpful in a fight against a character who is so powerful anyway...unless they put him to sleep.)

There's also the question of whether or not powering up can be considered a counter to LOW tier genjutsu because powering up is literally just using inner ki to enhance your body....Kid Naruto and Sasuke could also do this, but were still weak to low tier genjutsu.

 

[Akreious]

You're going to assume Goku ISNT going to power up when he sees 50 of his enemy suddenly appear? He powers up anyways, he doesn't NEED to realize he's in a Genjutsu. And you're really comparing the insane amounts of power coursing through the body of Goku to... Kid Naruto and Kid Sasuke. The way they get out of Genjutsu can be basically summed up as "literally brute forcing their way back to normal". Those characters are not at all comparable.

 

[Rocker1189]

Except if the person simply forces goku to see a peaceful illusion, or lets say. The person makes Goku to think he has just won the fight veruy easily, then goku would have no reason to power up. But yes powering up should get him out of it.

 

[YungManzi]

@Akreious

Like I said before... A lot of genjutsu is much more subtle than what you are making it out to be; examples of that are Itachi's genjutsu on Deidara and Orochimaru, Sasuke's genjutsu on Danzo Ect.

Naruto characters don't get out through brute force, it's a lot more complicated than that. They specifically have to disrupt the chakra network which is inside of their head to shake off genjutsu.

You say that the characters are not comparable because of the power gap, but in relation to genjutsu...that literally means nothing( Naruto had much more chakra than Sakura, but still got solo'd by Kabuto's Genjutsu while Sakura immediately released it.)

Then there's the question of what exactly powering up actually is. Many assume that it could work to release genjutsu, but there is absolutely no evidence to support that....We only know that ki can be used to enhance the body physically and defend against energy attacks(At least as far as defense goes.)

 

[Rocker1189]

@YungManzi

yeah a lot of assumptions are being used here, specifically to favour dragonball.

 

[Seventy96]

Please, continue


Popcor

 

[Dzhindzholia]

@Akreious

Goku can get out of basic genjutsu by powering up,but not Tsukuyomi or other stronger genjutsus.I dont remember clearly but can the person even move while he is inside Tsukuyomi?I mean even if Goku starts nuking the area,it is just the illusion inside Tsukuyomi,is that right?

 

[YungManzi]

@Dzhindzholia

Time passes however Itachi wants it to pass inside of Tsukuyomi. In the novel Itachi puts an 11 year old girl in a Tsukuyomi that makes her experience an entire life(as in, she grew up had a family and died at 80 years old) in 0.000000001 billionths of a second.


Edit: My bad, she was a few years older actually...like 14-16.

 

[EliminatorVenom]

@Amex

Nah, I didn't take offense in this.

Well... I can see your point. Genjutsu does mechanically work by manipulating the energies within one's body, of which Mind Manip. is the intended effect. Goku, being one of the best ki-users in DBZ, he has an excellent control of his own ki. Verse equalization would actually help him there, since chakra = ki.

I'm still somewhat skeptical, but I'll grant you that Naruto's Genjutsu mechanics are too specific, in such a way that Goku may have time to react to it.

 

[Amexim]

Other arguments:

1. Powering up can be interpreted as giving a shock to the Chakra Network system. Goku would be releasing a large amount of Spiritual Energy from his body when he flares his aura up, all of a sudden, kind of like the Eight Gates, but everywhere. Even if we just pretend that energy he releases is just a glow that gives off from some kind of delicate enhancement of their bodies, energy would still have to change and flow abruptly all over his body. And, according to Jiraiya, breaking Genjutsu requires disrupting the Chakra flow. It might be speculative, but it's not a stretch. The question is, if Goku would notice that he's in a Genjutsu. I would think it's possible, since Goku has great control and precision with his Chi. If he's in a Genjutsu for an extended period of time, he might be able to recognize the strange things that are happening to his own Ki. That is, if he's still conscious. Kabuto's feather jutsu might take him out in one shot.

 

[Amexim]

2. Tsukuyomi. Speed Equalized, undoubtedly, Goku would kill whoever casted the Genjutsu on him-- unless Genjutsu makes it so that you think you're casting jutsu and using Chakra, but you really aren't-- which, is normally false, because you can disrupt the Chakra flow without it. Tsukuyomi might be different, though Sasuke did break out of it-- might have been allowed by Itachi. Goku's reactions would be slowed down to meet the Tsukuyomi, and he would probably use an explosive wave attack to clear them off of him at some point. Such an explosion of energy would either release him from the jutsu, or blow up the area he's in as soon as the jutsu is cast.

 

[Rocker1189]

you can only disrupt it if you know you are in the genjutsu if not you will only do things inside the genjutsu.

 

[Amexim]

Where was that stated? Second, in terms of disrupting Chakra, it shouldn't matter if you know you're in it or not, you're still shocking your Chakra system and ruining the flow.

I doubt Goku would be able to sense anyone outside of the Genjutsu, as even Sensory types were caught up-- in what they knew was a Genjutsu. They weren't on Goku's level of sensory, but still, it's possible that it might block the sense of other chakras outside of it. It doesn't completely block Chakra sending though. C was able to recognize what the Susanoo's chakra was like after being hit by Sasuke's Sharingan. It was just as cold as before, is what he said or something.

Either way, Goku would still figure out that he's in a Genjutsu eventually, as he would notice his strange energy flow, and either disrupt it by powering it up, or directly stopping it. Goku's smart enough for that.

 

[Rocker1189]

It does not need to be stated, it is just how it works, you will never ddo anything on the outside because you have not notied anything weird. Just like Itachi made that woman think she lived till 80 with him as her husband. He would not notice it evenutally as he will be made to lower his guard and possibly be killed before he realizes.

 

[Amexim]

I disagree with you, and I already went over it. This is assuming that Goku can be placed under Genjutsu in the first place-- the Raikage's brain had lightning Chakra moving all around it, preventing him from being effected by Sasuke's Sharingan. Goku's Energy is way faster and way stronger than Ay's, so there's that.

 

[Kyle_Ramos]

Isnt Goku inmune to illusions since DB?

 

[Golden_Void]

Yes he can, easily.

 

[Amexim]

Can you verify that that feat is Canon, and then give him the illusion resistance?

 

[YungManzi]

@Amexim

Stronger and faster /= more effective. Even if it's said that Goku has good Ki control, we don't know how a statement of someone having good KI control would translate to Naruto's chakra...Goku is still vulnerable to sickness.

@Kyle Ramos

No character should be completely immune to any kind of power, unless the power is something like soul manipulation and the character in question does not have a soul.

 

[Seventy96]

@Amexim

what do you think about this?

dubbing because YouTube.

 

[Amexim]

We can assume that Ki/Chakra is the same thing-- otherwise Goku won't be affected by Genjutsu because he doesn't have Chakra. Then, we compare the ability and versatility Goku displays manipulating the energy. Goku, like the Sage of Six paths, doesn't use hand seals to manipulate his energy. Can increase his power without letting it leak out of his body. Can both strengthen and weaken himself using his energy and show restraint that's so great that he can make himself able to be scratched by a bullet, or replicate the situation that Vegeta allowed Krillin to hurt him in. In addition to the fact that he can harness his abilities offensively without letting it leak out in excess once. And firing it out in concentrated forms with ease, whereas in the Naruto verse, doing that in limited forms is considered a high tier feat.

Goku's far faster than the Raikage using his augmentation-- meaning, scientifically speaking, his synapses should fire faster than the Raikage's, as that's why lightning Chakra increases his speed-- and that synapses firing" reason was why the Sharingan didn't work on them. Even if that's only through Chakra, Goku's augmentation using Ki to increase speed in a similar way, if not the exact same if you break down the science of it. But if these claims are hard sells to you because they make the Verse's mechanics one and the same with higher demonstrations in Naruto being synonymous with the basics of Dragon Ball (like Dragon Ball Characters not needing handseals), then fine. Though, I do think it's rather arbitrary to verse Equalize up and stop where Goku's skill with this similar power isn't as obvious as it would be.

Goku, from when he was little was demonstrating Spiritual Energy/Chi/Chakra control comparible to that of someone using Rasengan or Raikiri. Now Goku can spam energy blasts in multiple varieties, in different techniques, in different places, wheras the top tier Manipulators of the Naruto verse barely comes to his foot in doing what the basics of Manipulation in DBZ can do. Naruto and Sasuke's chakra cloak and Susanoo comes close-- being complex energy constructs and surpassing anything Canon Goku has done (unless he demonstrates the ability to create a Dragon Fist).

Even then, I still don't see them haxing Goku with Genjutsu, considering how they're not even able to hax the Juubi or Madara or Kaguya, all who have a massive amount of power according to the Sensory Ninja, measured in both size and quality iirc. Perhaps its just size. Either way... Not looking good.

 

[Dzhindzholia]

You cant give Goku resistance just because he is stronger,his tier is irrelivant and he doesnt have feats.He cant have resistance unless it is noted in his profile after CRT and some feats.

I this it is better to close that thread,it goes nowhere.

 

[Rocker1189]

But, the main reasons they could not hax any of them, was because they either were tailed beasts that have natural resistance to genjutsu that is not super powerful like with a mangekyo sharingan or higher and the other Madara and Kaguya both have rinnengan that renders genjutsu nearly useless.

 

[Amexim]

I take back everything I said about the Narutoverse's Chi/Spiritual Energy Manipulation skills. I just realized that these characters are not only able to transmute their Chi/Chakra into different substances, but are also able to create extremely complex shapes out of those substances-- like clones with the texture of human bodies using lightning Chakra. So my apologies for the erroneous downplay. However, the link that Seventy sent me kind of adds to my suspicion. Deidara used his abilities while being caught in a Genjutsu. While this could be interpreted as master Manipulation on Itachi's part, making him effectively the controller of Deidara's ability by changing his chakra flow and manipulating him like a puppet to wrap himself up in his own explosive (evidenced by him not being able to sense where his own chakra is-- which suggests that Genjutsu might have the ability of masking awareness of the targets energy. Possibly? That's confusing, and I'll address that in a second), it could also easily just be Deidara's 5 senses were warped in an extreme manner-- where his concepts of space were so far removed from reality that he didn't really know what he was doing in the real worlf-- making it so that he misplaced his centipede bomb on himself without him being aware of it.

TL: DR; Itachi versus Deidara proves you can use your abilities in the real world when under Genjutsu. Though the nature of how this is done, why this was done, and if Itachi allowed this to be done this way so that Deidara's arrogance crash down on him/save effort on his part is confusing, that scene nonetheless made me realize how high tier the Naruto Verse is in controlling Chi/Spiritual Energy, even if they have to use Handseals to access most of it.