- 4,143
- 571
^Kurama>>>>Obito,but he was able to put Kurama under genjutsu.Also,you cant just say that Goku has resistance to anything when he showed nothing.
-
This forum is strictly intended to be used by members of the VS Battles wiki. Please only register if you have an autoconfirmed account there, as otherwise your registration will be rejected. If you have already registered once, do not do so again, and contact Antvasima if you encounter any problems.
For instructions regarding the exact procedure to sign up to this forum, please click here. -
We need Patreon donations for this forum to have all of its running costs financially secured.
Community members who help us out will receive badges that give them several different benefits, including the removal of all advertisements in this forum, but donations from non-members are also extremely appreciated.
Please click here for further information, or here to directly visit our Patreon donations page. -
Please click here for information about a large petition to help children in need.
Can current Goku resist genjutsu?
- Thread starter Seventy96
- Start date
- Status
- 11,134
- 14,119
Comparing Kurama to Goku now, are we?
I never said Goku has resistance to anything he has not shown. Same goes for vulnerability. I am just saying, it's pretty far fetched to assume that a hax which has shown to affect only fodder characters would work without any proof and feats.
I never said Goku has resistance to anything he has not shown. Same goes for vulnerability. I am just saying, it's pretty far fetched to assume that a hax which has shown to affect only fodder characters would work without any proof and feats.
- 4,143
- 571
No,I compared Kurama to Obito,there is a huge gap between their power,thats all.Goku just literally has superior physical stats,nothing else.Even 9A character with strong mind manip can affect Goku,i just want to say that raw power cant give you resistance to something that you never showed.Now you could say something like "But he never affected someone on Gokus lvl",but how do you know that Goku has resistance to that if he never showed it?
- 4,143
- 571
What do you mean by saying "characters on that lvl"?Goku is still a 3D character that has 0 feats on countering mind manip,i dont see how Goku resist to a tsukuyomi or genjutsu.You just said that Goku is resistant to genjutsu because he is stronger,that is not how it works.
- 315
- 25
Against the normal Genjutsu, I believe that he could resist and get out of them with some effort, the Dragon Ball characters have well-trained minds as well. However against the more powerful and complicated Genjutsu, Goku would have many more complications, against Tsukuyomi, Kotoamatsukami, Izanami or Infinite Tsukuyomi Goku couldn't resist because everyone is at a different level from the normal illusions and can't get out of them by conventional methods.
Ah yes, and you always find users using the most superficial logic that can exist, trying to ridicule the fact that Goku can be affected by attacks of characters infinitely weaker than him if he is attacked in specific areas like his mind, because genius, that Goku can destroy universes with his fists doesn't mean that his mind can only be affected by attacks of universal scale and more when such attacks ignore the durability and conventional attack power and are destined to affect stronger opponents that are normal, After all Goku is just a super powerful alien, it takes a little more analysis and get out of the usual superfluous conclusion my friend.
Ah yes, and you always find users using the most superficial logic that can exist, trying to ridicule the fact that Goku can be affected by attacks of characters infinitely weaker than him if he is attacked in specific areas like his mind, because genius, that Goku can destroy universes with his fists doesn't mean that his mind can only be affected by attacks of universal scale and more when such attacks ignore the durability and conventional attack power and are destined to affect stronger opponents that are normal, After all Goku is just a super powerful alien, it takes a little more analysis and get out of the usual superfluous conclusion my friend.
- 4,143
- 571
It can mindfook Goku because Goku can not resist it.He just didnt show resistant to mind manip,that is all.
- 11,134
- 14,119
And still Goku was never exposed to it, hence he never showed resistance.
And then you haven't shown any feat of mindfooking someone like Goku, everything needs a certain amount of energy to be efficient and you have never shown to expend that much energy before and we don't know how efficient your mind manip is. Since everything has a limit, your assumption is still conjecture.
And then you haven't shown any feat of mindfooking someone like Goku, everything needs a certain amount of energy to be efficient and you have never shown to expend that much energy before and we don't know how efficient your mind manip is. Since everything has a limit, your assumption is still conjecture.
- 8,205
- 1,937
Genjutsu is a tricky subject.
Unlike most works of fiction which contain forms of mind manipulation and illusions....there are tiers in regards to genjutsu. We have actually seen characters who have resistance to genjutsu, be absolutely destroyed by genjutsu. We have actually seen characters defeat or control other characters who are much stronger than them via genjutsu.
In regards to lesser powerful genjutsu, it still isn't clear because it can be used in some of the most subtle ways possible(By saying this, i'm saying that goku might not even realize he is in a genjutsu...and might do something like blow himself up....like Deidara)
There are way too many uses that genjutsu has to accurately gauge how a character like Goku could react to even the weaker ones.
Unlike most works of fiction which contain forms of mind manipulation and illusions....there are tiers in regards to genjutsu. We have actually seen characters who have resistance to genjutsu, be absolutely destroyed by genjutsu. We have actually seen characters defeat or control other characters who are much stronger than them via genjutsu.
In regards to lesser powerful genjutsu, it still isn't clear because it can be used in some of the most subtle ways possible(By saying this, i'm saying that goku might not even realize he is in a genjutsu...and might do something like blow himself up....like Deidara)
There are way too many uses that genjutsu has to accurately gauge how a character like Goku could react to even the weaker ones.
- 2,938
- 365
You guys have the burden of proof backwards. Genjutsu users should need to prove that they have the ability to affect people on Goku's level-- regardless if they have used it on stronger characters before in their verse. It's completely NLF otherwise, because you're assuming something about Genjutsu that was never demonstrated. You're assuming Goku can't resist an ability that he's never been exposed to, which is conjecture based on irrelevant truths about Genjutsu. So what if he can hax Kurama, can he hax Goku? Where's the feat suggesting that he can hax someone ON Goku's LEVEL-- extraordinary claims tend to require extraordinary evidence, and all you have is conjecture that let's you assume that Genjutsu works on beings on Kurama's level. Nothing more.
- 2,938
- 365
No. I'm not giving Goku resistance to anything. I'm asking for proof that Itachi has the skill to hax beings as powerful as Goku. It is a skill problem, right? Because being able to control a tailed beast using the Sharingan is supposed to be a special feat that few people can do-- meaning it is either a question of the ability to control someone with immense power, or a profeciency in using said hax. If this Genjutsu doesn't work on Goku, it wouldn't be because he has resistance to it, but because Itachi's profeciency with Genjutsu isn't on the level necessary to hax characters on Goku's level.
- 14,956
- 1,831
I mean the issue is, the description of genjutsu is that it fools the targets 5 senses, so as long as the target is not 4-D it should affect them because genjutsu does not limit itself to the physical strength of the character and is solely based on their senses. Meaning really it only loses its uses aginst people of tier 2 or higher. Not counting people that have resistance to it.
- 2,938
- 365
Yeah, except not everyone can easily place a tailed beast under Genjutsu. Even then, there's still a certain level of skill required to even place someone under the affect of the jutsu. I need whoever has the ability to have a feat putting them on that Level, personally speaking. Otherwise, I don't know if he can place said person under Genjutsu.
- 2,938
- 365
You don't know how to read, do you? I never said that Goku has automatic resistance to it because of raw power, nor did I say that Genjutsu was confirmed to be contingent on raw power (though I can make an argument against certain things that I won't get into). I did say, however, that had needs to have feats to prove they are able to affect certain kinds of people in certain ways. Otherwise, anyone can hax anyone without proof or limits (unless you're 2-C or some other stipulation), which is an NLF. You don't seem to know what NLF is. It's not even really called that in the real world. Hasty Generalization is the real term.
Genjutsu itself is shown to be contingent on the skill of the wielder to even work at all on certain people. Not every Uchiha can control a Biju, right? And not every Genjutsu user can Genjutsu a Biju. There's plenty of evidence to suggest that Genjutsu effectiveness requires skill to even work on some people. While, iirc, no one who has used Genjutsu has failed to place someone under it (as in it didn't activate or anything), that's irrelevant, as they wouldn't use a jutsu they have no skill in during live combat anyway. And haxing Biju is considered a feat out of the ordinary for Genjutsu. So obviously there's tiers of effectiveness. It's either that Biju have a natural resistance to Genjutsu, which isn't knowable, or that they're too strong to be effected by it, like with Majin Vegeta against Babidi's Mind Control.
Either way, I require feats for whoever uses it. Saying they can use it on just anyone who hasn't explicitly demonstrated resistance wanks their skill.
Also, isn't Genjutsu itself manipulating the other person's Chakra? I would definitely need a feat of someone like Itachi, Madara, or Obito to manipulate the Spiritual Energy of a being that can use said energy to destroy Universes. There's always an energy requirement to preform a task. You can't assume that haxing someone's dog takes as much effort, skill, or anything as much as it would to hax Beerus or Galactus or something. But that's my opinion. This wiki abides by the former-- which, if we're having a personal debate between us two, is irrelevant btw.
Genjutsu itself is shown to be contingent on the skill of the wielder to even work at all on certain people. Not every Uchiha can control a Biju, right? And not every Genjutsu user can Genjutsu a Biju. There's plenty of evidence to suggest that Genjutsu effectiveness requires skill to even work on some people. While, iirc, no one who has used Genjutsu has failed to place someone under it (as in it didn't activate or anything), that's irrelevant, as they wouldn't use a jutsu they have no skill in during live combat anyway. And haxing Biju is considered a feat out of the ordinary for Genjutsu. So obviously there's tiers of effectiveness. It's either that Biju have a natural resistance to Genjutsu, which isn't knowable, or that they're too strong to be effected by it, like with Majin Vegeta against Babidi's Mind Control.
Either way, I require feats for whoever uses it. Saying they can use it on just anyone who hasn't explicitly demonstrated resistance wanks their skill.
Also, isn't Genjutsu itself manipulating the other person's Chakra? I would definitely need a feat of someone like Itachi, Madara, or Obito to manipulate the Spiritual Energy of a being that can use said energy to destroy Universes. There's always an energy requirement to preform a task. You can't assume that haxing someone's dog takes as much effort, skill, or anything as much as it would to hax Beerus or Galactus or something. But that's my opinion. This wiki abides by the former-- which, if we're having a personal debate between us two, is irrelevant btw.
- 2,716
- 169
Goku is tier 2 only by powerscaling, he is not a 4-D character. Once again, Goku's level means nothing here, he's a 3-D character with little to zero telepathic resistance. Telepathy affects on mental plane, not physical. It has nothing to do with attack potency, so NLF is not valid here. It's a hax that works on anybody without resistance, which Goku doesn't possess.
You know what hax means? Hax works on stronger people because it bypassess physicals stats, which you don't seem to comprehend. By your logic Goku can't be affected be affected by any hax used by weaker characters.
You know what hax means? Hax works on stronger people because it bypassess physicals stats, which you don't seem to comprehend. By your logic Goku can't be affected be affected by any hax used by weaker characters.
- 40,469
- 12,953
Darth Sidious, Mewtwo, and Professor X can't shut down Goku while working together because AP ovo.
- 2,938
- 365
I need feats bro. Your logic is equally absurd to me-- that Itachi or any character can hax anyone with no difficulty-- as if his skill has no limits. Did you even think about what I said? This specific scenario means that Itachi would have to move around the energy of a being-- energy that is so volitile and powerful that it could kill everything in the universe. That's an extraordinary claims, in my opinion. Now where's the extraordinary evidence? Because it seems like you're trying to suggest that Itachi can manipulate energy that's powerful enough to destroy the Universe.
You're trying to say that there's no difference between an Uchiha haxing a Biju, and them haxing Goku. When the series itself makes it clear that not just anyone can use Genjutsu on the Biju and mind **** it. Whether that be because of a power gap, or because it requires a certain amount of skill is unknown. All I know is, I need to see some feats, because Goku isn't the same as Kurama, and people have difficulty mindhaxing Kurama as it is, for whatever reason.
It could be because of the fact that Kurama's entire body is made of Chakra, so Manipulating his senses through biology might be difficult, understandibly. But let's look at how they talk about Chakra. Karin and sensory types describe Chakra with Size and Quantity, just like characters in Dragon Ball do. She likens the Raikage to a Biju in terms of Quantity. Goku would have far more Spiritual Energy (Chi/Chakra) than every ninja in the Shinobi World. If it's difficult to had a Biju, and that reason might be because of Chakra quantity, then it's definitely much more difficult to hax Goku.
But, again, getting away from that, to say that anyone can hax anyone who hasn't explicitly demonstrated resistance to similar abilities is NLFing the **** out of their skill with their hax and how strong that hax is. There needs to be a certain amount of energy/effort to do certain actions, and I require proof that they can do said actions.
You're trying to say that there's no difference between an Uchiha haxing a Biju, and them haxing Goku. When the series itself makes it clear that not just anyone can use Genjutsu on the Biju and mind **** it. Whether that be because of a power gap, or because it requires a certain amount of skill is unknown. All I know is, I need to see some feats, because Goku isn't the same as Kurama, and people have difficulty mindhaxing Kurama as it is, for whatever reason.
It could be because of the fact that Kurama's entire body is made of Chakra, so Manipulating his senses through biology might be difficult, understandibly. But let's look at how they talk about Chakra. Karin and sensory types describe Chakra with Size and Quantity, just like characters in Dragon Ball do. She likens the Raikage to a Biju in terms of Quantity. Goku would have far more Spiritual Energy (Chi/Chakra) than every ninja in the Shinobi World. If it's difficult to had a Biju, and that reason might be because of Chakra quantity, then it's definitely much more difficult to hax Goku.
But, again, getting away from that, to say that anyone can hax anyone who hasn't explicitly demonstrated resistance to similar abilities is NLFing the **** out of their skill with their hax and how strong that hax is. There needs to be a certain amount of energy/effort to do certain actions, and I require proof that they can do said actions.
- 2,716
- 169
I have no clue why you're correlating telepathy to attack potency when they have absolutely zero relation. Telepathy does not work on physical plane, it works on mental plane. Do you believe Goku is acausal too? I am genuinely curious. You don't seem to understand what falls under NLF.
Goku is the one who needs feats, no the other way around. Honestly I don't know why I am wasting my time on this lmao
Goku is the one who needs feats, no the other way around. Honestly I don't know why I am wasting my time on this lmao
- 2,938
- 365
Don't try to ******* strawman me when you can't even understand my argument. You're losing braincells every day, and you probably don't even have much to spare. I'm not saying that it's because he's stronger, I'm saying I NEED PROOF that they can effect people that powerful. Especially in this case.
- 3,323
- 1,857
Pretty sure Genjutsu would work since Goku has no resistance to mind manip.
HOWEVER, in Ultra Instinct it most likely wouldn't matter for reasons previously mentioned.
And no, AP doesn't translates to mind resistance. Unless, of course, you can prove that Goku's brain/mind is somehow much more complex or resistant than that of a trained martial artist due to him having more AP.
HOWEVER, in Ultra Instinct it most likely wouldn't matter for reasons previously mentioned.
And no, AP doesn't translates to mind resistance. Unless, of course, you can prove that Goku's brain/mind is somehow much more complex or resistant than that of a trained martial artist due to him having more AP.
- 2,938
- 365
I'm not gonna do that, because I don't think Goku or anyone has infinite resistance to anything. If you'd stop laughing and pretending that you know everything and actually read and think like a big boy, you'd understand that. But you can't understand complex ideas. Also, I don't have to make a CRT on this, because I don't believe that this wiki is God, so I don't feel like it's necessary to try and change everyone's opinion and procedures on this-- especially when it would be "undermining the wiki". I'm stating my opinion on the matter. Debate me on it if you want, but if you are, grow the **** up.
- 2,716
- 169
I already said it, Goku has zero feats involving telepathy. That's it. You show me scans of Goku resisting TP. Otherwise he gets into coma. Nothing more to debate.
You belive Darth Sidious can't stomp Goku because of AP difference? Try creating a vs thread for that and see what happens. Sidious is only tier 4-C by the way
You belive Darth Sidious can't stomp Goku because of AP difference? Try creating a vs thread for that and see what happens. Sidious is only tier 4-C by the way
- 2,938
- 365
That's not what I said at all. Not only that, but Genjutsu itself isn't directly mind Manipulation. It's done through Chakra Manipulation. You're ignoring the fact that other characters have had difficulty even activating Genjutsu on certain creatures with high and powerful amounts of Chakra, which, verse Equalized, Goku would have both. He doesn't need mind maniuplation resistance for a technique that isn't pure mind Manipulation, but Chakra Manipulation that causes mind Manipulation when you're skilled enough to work. And no one in the verse in question has feats to suggest that they can manipulate energy as powerful as Goku's. So in this specific case at least, they need feats.
- 2,938
- 365
******* idiot. Didn't I just say that this wiki doesn't dictate what's fact? So making threads on this wiki would only prove that everyone else disagrees with my opinion. Which doesn't make anything any less true or false about what I said. You're a goddamn sheep. These are MY OPINIONS on how I TALK AND VIEW situations like this, not according to this wiki or anything.
- 2,938
- 365
Second, when you really think about it, it depends on the specifics of how the person's hax works, not a broad, non-specific understanding. Professor X manipulates people's thoughts, right? Aren't thoughts electrical impulses going through our brains or something? Doesn't that mean he's manipulating a physical force? I could go on and on to explain how I think that there's a certain amount of energy required to manipulate certain things and bring up my example of how it's likely a Matter Manipulator like Scar needs AP to manipulate someone who has far higher durability than him, based on how Scar's powers work, but I won't, because you're not even listening.
- 2,938
- 365
It's energy Manipulation in Canon. And verse equalization when applied to Dragon Ball, that have similar concepts of energy. What the wiki says it is, or what it would be Equalized to if it was versus someone who doesn't have an energy is irrelevant. We're talking about Goku vs Genjutsu.
- Status
