Calvin and Hobbles: "Imagination" profile wiping

[00potato]

Are you just gonna take everything as seriously as possible?

I already gave more then enough arguments, and you barely gave a counter argument. The profiles never caused any issues and they never will. You are just being stupid.

 

[The_Smashor]

Reguardless of weather or not they are causing problems is irrelivant. A Versus Debater's job is not to insult the opposition. A Versus Debater's job is to look at the opposition's arguement and provide a counterarguement using the information they have. This is the job of any debater.

@00potato

Now, like I said, I can probably handle this arguement. You seem like you need to blow off some steam. Go play DOOM or Animal Crossing or whatever you have for a while. Your games arn't worth the money you spent on them if they just collect dust on the shelves.

 

[Agnaa]

So suddenly this is some absurd slippery slope. People will pull this crap when anything pops up. Anyone could wank verses into absurdity you don't need these profiles to do that.

What do you even mean, is this making this verse to strong to "absurdity?"

This would be separate from other characters in the verse such as Hobbes so it isn't unreasonably stretching out the whole verse out. Just a few characters with feats.

A slippery slope's only a slippery slope when at least one of the steps is unreasonable.

None of this is about wank.

This verse isn't super strong, but we've seen time and time again that letting a verse in because it's harmless, once that foot's in the door, gradually leads to more and more extreme examples coming out. And I don't want to open the door to tiering imagination feats from every single verse.

I don't understand what your point is with the last sentence.

@Smashor Calvin and Hobbes doesn't have an imaginary world that exists in-verse. SAO and The Matrix have virtual worlds that exist in-verse. These situations are disanalagous.

 

[I'm_Blue_daba_dee_daba_die]

Are you just gonna take everything as seriously as possible?
I already gave more then enough arguments, and you barely gave a counter argument. The profiles never caused any issues and they never will. You are just being stupid.

1. Because fans of those verses you called "weeb filth" will likely report you if they see you bashing verses and insulting it they like for no reason

2. I will, but please, calm down

 

[The_Impress]

For the record I think it's absolutely BS when characters who have a definite lore and quantifiable feats get deleted because they're "not real", like it would matter in the slightest and would affect their legitimacy as a fightable character overall and the fact that their abilities and feats are set in stone. They're not inconsistent, they're not stupid, and you're setting up an arbitrary reason to delete them.

For a second let's just assume characters like MCU Molten Man was real, would it affect his rating in the slightest now that he exists in the real world? Would it make the wiki stupider by him being there?

Like, who would this harm? Your reasoning for disallowing these profiles is as imaginary as the characters themselves. Name a single thing that would legitimately be affected by these characters being "fake" when they're pulling off said feats a 100%

 

[00potato]

Reguardless of weather or not they are causing problems is irrelivant. A Versus Debater's job is not to insult the opposition. A Versus Debater's job is to look at the opposition's arguement and provide a counterarguement using the information they have. This is the job of any debater.

@00potato

Now, like I said, I can probably handle this arguement. You seem like you need to blow off some steam. Go play DOOM or Animal Crossing or whatever you have for a while. Your games arn't worth the money you spent on them if they just collect dust on the shelves.

Yeah ok, I will stop the mind games, you got this bud.

 

[Bobsican]

Like, if Calvin and Hobbes end up being allowed, I can go ahead and do profiles for the Backyardigans, a ton of furries that have adventures with their imagination, then use those segments that always last nearly all the episode as actual feats to lead to semi-composite abominations.

 

[The_Smashor]

Having Calvin's imaginary characters like Spiff and Stupendous Man is no different to NASU's 2nd and 3rd keys.

 

[I'm_Blue_daba_dee_daba_die]

Yume Nikki has a built cosmology of reality equalization, Stupendous Man and Spaceman spiff is his own daydreams

 

[The_Smashor]

NASU is a video game character in Yume Nikki, not a dream character.

 

[Agnaa]

NASU is a video game character in Yume Nikki, not a dream character.

I'd be okay with deleting those keys then. But maybe Saikou has a reason not to.

 

[Bobsican]

Looking at the threads of NASU, not really

 

[The_Impress]

Like, if Calvin and Hobbes end up being allowed, I can go ahead and do profiles for the Backyardigans, a ton of furries that have adventures with their imagination, then use those segments that always last nearly all the episode as actual feats to lead to semi-composite abominations.

What is your point here? Literally? I can pull out silly examples of everything by this logic. Barney and his calc for 8-B exists on the wiki, our new system allows for this abominatio to be Tier 0 and a lot more examples.

Bring relevant problems with this instead of random "oh this can happen" arguments.

 

[Bobsican]

Fine then, I just got carried out a bit. It was mainly to show briefly what sort of stuff could be allowed if it ends up being the case.

TBH I'm pretty neutral, I'll wait a bit to see how this goes.

 

[The_Smashor]

Honestly, yeah. This would allow the Backyardigans, aside from new Composite Rules maybe not allowing that. Is there a problem with that?

 

[I'm_Blue_daba_dee_daba_die]

How about not only making the reality fiction barrier murky, but also allowing a bunch of "imagination" or "fantasy" characters which can lead to people trying to put characters like Super Nate from big nate into this wiki

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

I don't really care about NASU all things considered.

But there is a difference between something like, say, The Matrix, SAO or NASU, which are definite, separate worlds from the "real world" and this case (or the case with that one chuuni anime), which essentially blends real world events and imagination events. Essentially, the difference isn't clear cut and organized enough to justify treating this imagination as being the main "setting" of the verse, espcially given the issues that might arise from the real world and imagination overstepping each other's boundaries.

That'd be my reasoning for nuking Calvin and Hobbes in my opinion. Virtual worlds, set-in-stone dream worlds, and set-in-stone fictional worlds are not the same as day dreams, imagination or fantasies that heavily blend in with the real world due to not being separate.

 

[The_Impress]

If we can have Spongebob, Chowder and Barney profiles, Backyardigans are approximately as relevant.

On the other hand, this would justify legitimate verses like Alice Liddell (American McGee's Alice) and Mysterio (Marvel Cinematic Universe) who have actually relevant characters which are "imaginary"

 

[Agnaa]

Bring relevant problems with this instead of random "oh this can happen" arguments.

I don't think we should tier characters based off of occasional thoughts/imagined scenarios that are canonically staged on the same level of reality and acknowledged to not be real.

C&H's situation sounds almost identical to Keep Your Hands Off Eizouken! which could get some pretty strange profiles if we treated the occasional scenes where they imagine what their anime would look like as feats.

 

[The_Smashor]

@Blue

Spam finds a way reguardless. We will always spam characters. The possiblity of spam characters should hardly detur us.

 

[I'm_Blue_daba_dee_daba_die]

@Zark, MCU Mysterio isn't really relevant here, the elementals were ultimately a hologram, but they still were shown to affect the MCU reality with their actions and their feats were properly defined, way more than C&H

@Smashor, I don't mean spam VS Matches, I mean spam profile making of anyone who is "an imagination", often to poor quality profiles

 

[The_Impress]

@Agnaa For starters they'd be different keys because that's a different version of the character, alongside that if they're one-off minor fantasies they're irrelevant to list.

What you're describing as is a different problem, not relevant to the discussion in context to imaginary profiles in general, of course if they're a collection of one-off fantasies they should be discarded as being too minor, but a consistent fantasy with relevance to the plot is important enough to be listed IMO

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

I think it's hard, if not impossible, to have an imaginary setting consistent enough if it's intersected by real-life.

A consistent story made up by a character that's completely separate from the real world is fine. But a story that's just a modification of real-life events and that intersects with real facts is over the line. Which, to me knowledge, corresponds with what Calvin and Hobbes is.

 

[Agnaa]

Its main relevance to the plot is that the characters are creating it, and imagining it, where we can see it come to life on-screen as they're working through it, is part of the way the show has us see that creation.

Sometimes the imagination is intertwined with real life plot-events. Imagining that they're part of a crew on a space-ship while they're fixing a hole in their club room's roof.

However, admittedly, I haven't gotten far enough in the series to know which of these imagination sequences in Eizouken would be long enough or consistent enough to count in your eyes.

But in general, I don't think consistent fantasies that are pretty strongly acknowledged to not be real should be listed, as the events did not happen in-verse. Even if they are plot relevant in some way.

I'd consider something like Wilfred, where it's constantly ambiguous whether Ryan is delusional, or if Wilfred is real but can only be seen by him, to be a situation where it could be indexed but would need a note indicating that it may not be real. And I've had this answer given to me in the past when I asked about profiles like that.

 

[The_Impress]

As stated before, Mysterio (Marvel Cinematic Universe) and Alice Liddell (American McGee's Alice)'s imaginary worlds are in direct correlation to their real worlds, but they're extremely consistent otherwise, having a defined power level and scaling alongside general consistency, alongside that being the literal plot of their respective verses

 

[Agnaa]

I'm not familiar enough with those characters to comment. But I'm blue said this which makes me think that Mysterio is a bad example.

 

[The_Impress]

The destruction is associated to the holograms but they didn't cause it due to being literally fiction, it was the drones, they're completely valid examples of an "imaginary character"

 

[Agnaa]

Like I said, I can't engage with a conversation around those characters. I'm not familiar with them and you've barely explained anything about why they may be allowed or may not be allowed.

btw, I made a post here that you might have missed.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

If I'm being honest, huge no to Mysterio. Giving tiers to illusions cast by a character is definitively over the line, especially when most of the movie takes place in an actual real world.

 

[The_Smashor]

I personally think an acception should be made if the only supernatural force in the verse is imaginary characters, the verse otherwise being just normal humans on normal earth.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

iirc Mysterio's feats arent done with illusions, theyre done by the drones projecting the illusions

 

[Agnaa]

If those illusions (or drones projecting them) caused actual damage to the real world, then they should be tiered and calling them "imaginary" is misleading.

If those illusions didn't cause actual damage to the real world and it was just wide-scale perception manip, then it's just perception manip. Still a power, but not one that gives AP.

If Mysterio is just sitting at his house imagining beating up spider man with holograms, with no effects on the real world in any way, then he doesn't deserve a profile.

@Smashor Well of course, if imaginary characters are a supernatural force then yeah, that should be tiered.

 

[InfiniteSped]

Backyardigans have imagination stories in every single episode, so it'd prob be fine tbh. Just make different keys for different episodes, since they're generally playing different characters in each one.

 

[The_Smashor]

@Sped

That would literally be dozens of keys. And that's just the episodes I watched as a kid.

 

[InfiniteSped]

You don't need one for each, just for the relevant ones for battles like the superhero episodes.

Although it might be quite a few, yeah. Just don't think they're particularly problematic to have here. Not saying this just cuz I wanted to add them later

 

[The_Impress]

Well Alice's entire game is a hallucination sequence getting interjected with minor cutscenes showcasing what is happening in the real world, the game then merges the two worlds ambiguously around the ending. Mysterio's plot revolved around convincing people that he is a superpowered hero and that he is defeating actual supervillains which were actually just staged attacks prior.

In both of these fictional scenarios, the characters had extremely consistent showcase and abilities, had defined weaknesses and were in this fictional setting for 3/4th of the runtime in the entire media they belonged to

I saw your post and I don't think there is much to comment given you yourself are unsure of these verses, so, though despite that I'd consider them insignificant in light of the limited context you provide tbh.

 

[The_Impress]

If I'm being honest, huge no to Mysterio. Giving tiers to illusions cast by a character is definitively over the line, especially when most of the movie takes place in an actual real world.

The illusions literally have consistent feats and scaling, they're not even wanked, that's literally a "I don't think so"

 

[Wokistan]

Well we can't check that statement now because someone deleted the profiles. I am looking at you Robert.

Firstly, who is Robert?

I left a comment with all the profiles contained within them after I deleted all the stuff. We're still free to look at the stuff.

Anyways, the majority of calvin and hobbes isn't in spaceman spiff or the stupendous man stuff or whatever and even within the context of the comic, this stuff didn't happen and is just a child playing. I do not think we should be tiering daydreams and stuff that's fictional even within the confines of the fiction.

As for hobbes, Bill Watterson saying that his status is all a matter of perception kinda solidifies how he can't really be used that well either, since literally everything he does is ultimately ambiguous going by that.

The comparisons to stuff like the matrix seem poor. Virtual worlds aren't really the same thing as kid daydreaming

 

[Agnaa]

Well Alice's entire game is a hallucination sequence getting interjected with minor cutscenes showcasing what is happening in the real world, the game then merges the two worlds ambiguously around the ending.

If they get ambiguously merged around the ending it sounds fine, then, since it was effectively made real. But if it's ambiguous you might want to include a note on the profiles/verse page.

Mysterio's plot revolved around convincing people that he is a superpowered hero and that he is defeating actual supervillains which were actually just staged attacks prior.

You'll really need to explain this more. How did he convince people? What do you mean by staged attacks? Does it fit into one of my three outlines I listed earlier?

With Weekly there's now two people saying that Mysterio affected reality and wasn't just imagining stuff by himself in his room. So I'm inclined to believe that Mysterio's real and has legit feats.

The illusions literally have consistent feats and scaling, they're not even wanked, that's literally a "I don't think so"

Consistent non-canon material is still non-canon, and should still not be included on the site.

 

[Wokistan]

If the illusions are physically interacting with the world they aren't really illusions at that point...