Calculations Based on Time Frozen Backgrounds

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I have seen a few calculations using a particular method examples being this one as well as this one.

The calculation appears to be done based on taking the speed of whatever the frozen object was normally, then dividing it by the speed of a snail, and then multiplying it by the speed in which they visually appear moving based on cinematic timeframe or normal human speed. While I do agree said characters should be astronomically faster than what ever they're reacting to, I feel as if a method like that is too guess work heavy. And if those backgrounds were truly 100% frozen, it would logically either be either time stop or a very brief infinite speed. Which the latter just sounds downright outlierish.

I'd like to hear input from various calc group members for methods such as this, but at least in my eyes; I find these objectionable at best. But is there a better method? If so, please elaborate. But how would we calculated or at least interpret cartoony animations of a character being able to move or pull of stunts so fast that everyone else appears as frozen? I'm also not sure how many other calculations used said methods, but Shrek and the Sonic movie come to mind I know.

 

[Anomalous_N_I_W_D_E]

Finglebuddle.

 

[Antvasima]

@DontTalkDT @Executor_N0 @Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan @Mr._Bambu @Therefir @Ugarik @DMUA @Damage3245 @DemonGodMitchAubin @Jasonsith @Wokistan

What do you think about this?

 

[Damage3245]

I 100% agree that these types of calcs are too speculative and usually lead to super-high results. I still have no idea why we arbitrarily use the speed of a snail in calcs like this - even in cases where it isn't mentioned that things appears "frozen".

 

[BigSmoke4269]

Snails move at one millimeter per second. Since a millimeter is generally the point at which something is considered to be microscopic, it would make sense to use it for the speed of someone whose movements are too small to see.

 

[OverlordDonnelly]

Feats like these do seem to do a good job of showcasing speed but also seem tricky to calculate. Maybe these kind of feats should have a type of standard set for them in the future?

Or maybe two generally slow moving objects with a noticeable difference in speed can be used as a low and high end for the feat in question?

I'll be quick to admit this isn't my strong suit, but I thought maybe promoting some discussion could help.

If this reply doesn't help much or takes up space, it can be deleted, just let me know

 

[BigSmoke4269]

I'd say the "frozen" stuff should be treated more like its movements are too small to perceive.

 

[Jasonsith]

Well while the speed reference from a snail can be speculative, the speed multiplier from such a slow motion actually makes sense - provided this is not just a specific cinematic event by the author or mangaka or production firm. (McGruff the Crime Dog can appear as able to totally perceive anything as frozen and/or even outright stop time, but he can do nothing other than lecturing to the audience. I try to give an example of how some slow motion or time stop feats are just for cinematic/dramatic effect and not combat applicable.)

 

[Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan]

Snail speed is reasonable in an actually frozen scene but iirc they should only be used for books or statements where there are no pictures.

 

[BigSmoke4269]

why aren't pictures allowed for this, exactly?

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Well, I have less of a problem on whether or not the calculations are highballed, but actually for the opposite reason. There are times where people give slight lowballs to feats just to make it look like it's not an outlier. Not accusing people of doing that outright, but if everything is 100% frozen is made literal, then that's pretty much infinite speed for brief things. And some other staff members are quite strict when it comes to practices like that.

I know McGruff is mostly just breaking the 4th wall and thus his time stop thing is not combat applicable. Though in Fiona's case where she flips her hair and when it returns to real time, she's blitzing the Merry men. Then later, Thelonius does the same thing to Fiona to tie her up; it might eventually lead to Calc Stacking category. And I know Hammy the Squirrel would be Massively FTL+ via caffeine via this method. But anyway, thanks for the reasonable feed back so far.

 

[DontTalkDT]

why aren't pictures allowed for this, exactly?

Because there is a much more secure method if you have pictures: If the thing didn't move at all between the pictures, you know the amount of movement they did in the timeframe is less than 1 pixel worth. So you can just calculate how much distance is 1 pixel, divide that by the speed of the object, and get the timeframe that way.

 

[Migue79]

Because there is a much more secure method if you have pictures: If the thing didn't move at all between the pictures, you know the amount of movement they did in the timeframe is less than 1 pixel worth. So you can just calculate how much distance is 1 pixel, divide that by the speed of the object, and get the timeframe that way.

So for when there's pictures/animations, we should actually calculate how fast it would appear to be moving instead of assuming? Ngl... That seems like a more practical method.

Though wouldn't it be better to calculate the distance 1px is and then divide by the time it appeared for us to move such distance (in other words, take that distance over 1px and divide it by the time it appeared frozen given it's possible)? Then do the regular in-tandem movement procedure outlined in the Calculations page.

Well while the speed reference from a snail can be speculative, the speed multiplier from such a slow motion actually makes sense - provided this is not just a specific cinematic event by the author or mangaka or production firm. (McGruff the Crime Dog can appear as able to totally perceive anything as frozen and/or even outright stop time, but he can do nothing other than lecturing to the audience. I try to give an example of how some slow motion or time stop feats are just for cinematic/dramatic effect and not combat applicable.)

I agree context will matter for this to avoid overestimating the speed of certain characters. People who are more adept in combat/acknowledged to be fast in-verse will be more likely to perceive such projectiles as near or outright frozen than one who isn't acknowledged as such. For the latter type of characters, it should be safer to assume it is just cinematic effect.

I also feel like for these feats to count they have to be done in the heat of battle since it makes it seem more legitimate. I'm just throwing out suggestions to get to a solution rn.

 

[BigSmoke4269]

Because there is a much more secure method if you have pictures: If the thing didn't move at all between the pictures, you know the amount of movement they did in the timeframe is less than 1 pixel worth. So you can just calculate how much distance is 1 pixel, divide that by the speed of the object, and get the timeframe that way.

i was asking why they shouldn't be allowed. you seem to be providing reasons as to why they should be.

 

[Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan]

The Calculations page has always said that snail speed should only be used if there isn't a picture. If there is you measure a pixel's length ad divide it by timeframe.

 

[BigSmoke4269]

Oh, okay then. If they don't seem to be moving, though, I think that a microscopic distance (in other words, one millimeter) would work.

 

[BigSmoke4269]

Actually, wait, nevermind. I get it now.

 

[Anomalous_N_I_W_D_E]

So what now? No dice with the calc?

 

[BigSmoke4269]

if anything, i'll probably have to revise it again.

 

[Imaginym]

Pardon my intrusion, please, but assuming anything has been revised or clarified, what kind of feats/calculation would this concern? Stuff like Quicksilver's super speed feats in some of the movies?
Didn't Movie Sonic have a feat related to him moving so fast explosions appear to barely move at all?

 

[Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan]

At least from our current standards snail speed is fine if you can prove that there is no possible way to measure the length of a pixel in that scene due to perspective or not knowing the object's size.

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you to DontTalk and all calc group members for helping out.

So has this issue been solved then?

 

[Wokistan]

These get super high results but the snail is actually supposed to be a lowball. You can kinda see them moving if you focus on them.

" but if everything is 100% frozen is made literal, then that's pretty much infinite speed for brief things"

This is taking frozen too literally. You can have degrees of movement that are imperceptible, especially with small or huge objects. For example, mount Everest is constantly growing taller, but it's like 4 mm per year. You aren't going to see that, but it also doesn't mean you're infinitely fast.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I agree the snail example is actually a lowball, and I know the whole "Human eyes are too fast for the slow movement things". I just wasn't sure at first glance of it being a generally accepted practice to use the 5000x multiplier. But anyway, I think the feed back was informative so I'm fine those types of calculations now unless other calc group members have objections. Though it looks like Damage and maybe Ugarik judging by the Kudos he gave Damage might.

 

[Anomalous_N_I_W_D_E]

I agree the snail example is actually a lowball, and I know the whole "Human eyes are too fast for the slow movement things". I just wasn't sure at first glance of it being a generally accepted practice to use the 5000x multiplier. But anyway, I think the feed back was informative so I'm fine those types of calculations now unless other calc group members have objections. Though it looks like Damage and maybe Ugarik judging by the Kudos he gave Damage might.

So... Could fast Shrek characters like that can somewhat be done or is there something else going on?

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I'd prefer to wait for the thread to be concluded, which hopefully it should soon. But if so, then perhaps yes.

 

[Anomalous_N_I_W_D_E]

I'd prefer to wait for the thread to be concluded, which hopefully it should soon. But if so, then perhaps yes.

Have to admit it was weird of such... But yeah.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Hi. Snail speed is really bad, holy shit.

Human language can be inherently hyperbolic when describing a lot of things. When a character goes "He was barely moving to my eyes" it doesn't mean "So slow that you need to stare at it for minutes on end to see it move a few centimeters", it usually just means "vaguely in slow motion".

Common sense folks. Snail Speed wanks literally every feat to the point where dodging a supersonic projectile becomes a sub-relativistic feat.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

The problem isn't just "people apply snail speed to scenes where everything is literally frozen", the problem is that any statement of "he was so slow it was like he was frozen" is interpreted as snail speed.

 

[Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan]

That is a good point, there probably needs to be stricter standards for frozen statements/book feats

 

[Jasonsith]

The problem isn't just "people apply snail speed to scenes where everything is literally frozen", the problem is that any statement of "he was so slow it was like he was frozen" is interpreted as snail speed.

I have one direction:
Some film/television dramas/animations have adaptations of book feats where "the said character is so fast he/she/it/they perceive other much slower movements as frozen". Can we compile them and see how (1) book feats are translated and (2) if there are discrepancies what are the factors.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

I have one direction:
Some film/television dramas/animations have adaptations of book feats where "the said character is so fast he/she/it/they perceive other much slower movements as frozen". Can we compile them and see how (1) book feats are translated and (2) if there are discrepancies what are the factors.

Pick any manga in the world where there's a scene where a dude blitzes another dude.

Watch how its adapted. You won't find a single instance in the world where the guy being blitzed is portrayed as having literal snail speed.

This should tell you that most normal people don't read "he was practically frozen" and assume a literal "1 milimiter per second"

 

[Anomalous_N_I_W_D_E]

The problem isn't just "people apply snail speed to scenes where everything is literally frozen", the problem is that any statement of "he was so slow it was like he was frozen" is interpreted as snail speed.

Yes thanks for your input, It was a bit weird I admit...

At least I will say there are only a few potential Shrek speed feats that are somewhat overlooked. Though with roughly scaling from Puss, I mostly might see Shrek just being Supersonic in combat/reactions thing.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Yeah, I basically tried to say what Matt was saying on the respective blogs albeit trying to remain polite about it as well. The 5000x multiplier based on moving so fast the other appears frozen is very stretchy. And it's even worse if it leads to calc stacking; because someone else did it to Fiona who did it to the Merry Men. Seems like a 25000000 multiplier next which would make him FTL; then he later actually got tagged by Shrek or Fiona much later. It kind of creates a giant loophole.

I can at least promise moving so fast the background is frozen is Subsonic at bare minimum; or even perceiving bullets as frozen is At least Supersonic, likely far higher. But using the snail example to get a 5000x multiplier is the stretchy part.

 

[Anomalous_N_I_W_D_E]

Yeah, I basically tried to say what Matt was saying on the respective blogs albeit trying to remain polite about it as well. The 5000x multiplier based on moving so fast the other appears frozen is very stretchy. And it's even worse if it leads to calc stacking; because someone else did it to Fiona who did it to the Merry Men. Seems like a 25000000 multiplier next which would make him FTL; then he later actually got tagged by Shrek or Fiona much later. It kind of creates a giant loophole.

I can at least promise moving so fast the background is frozen is Subsonic at bare minimum; or even perceiving bullets as frozen is At least Supersonic, likely far higher. But using the snail example to get a 5000x multiplier is the stretchy part.

Well yeah I think I proposed some other feats over the blog of Shrek that could be overlooked, Puss has feats yet to be revised in fact for anything Shrek related there is this thread if it interests anyone a bit of memes but some stuff is discussed there..

 

[BigSmoke4269]

because someone else did it to Fiona who did it to the Merry Men. Seems like a 25000000 multiplier next which would make him FTL; then he later actually got tagged by Shrek or Fiona much later. It kind of creates a giant loophole.

human fiona and ogre fiona might not actually scale to each other, especially since ogres are seemingly meant to be a lot heavier than humans.

 

[Anomalous_N_I_W_D_E]

So what happens now?

 

[Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan]

Perhaps adding stricter standards to the Calculations page

 

[DontTalkDT]

So, I think for feats with visuals we have no problem, right? No reason to use snail speed or anything, as you can just calc things without such assumptions.

For the statement kind of thing the calculations page currently says:

Sometimes even something like "time seems frozen" or that nothing moves is stated. Often this kind of statements are hyperboles. However, should that not be the case one may assume that the apparent speed of the reference object is less than or equal to 0.001 m/s.

Do we need to add something to the hyperbole part?
Or should the speed also be adjusted to something else? Like, is 1mm/s too slow for a not hyperbolic case?

 

[Psychomaster35]

Would it be possible if we can just lowball and say said objects were moving a pixel per second even if said object/background was frozen in place if we cannot use snail speed?