- 2,317
- 1,083
what do you define as "the verse's power levels" because as long as you don't invite the author to this forum to talk it's gonna be unclear
-
This forum is strictly intended to be used by members of the VS Battles wiki. Please only register if you have an autoconfirmed account there, as otherwise your registration will be rejected. If you have already registered once, do not do so again, and contact Antvasima if you encounter any problems.
For instructions regarding the exact procedure to sign up to this forum, please click here. -
We need Patreon donations for this forum to have all of its running costs financially secured.
Community members who help us out will receive badges that give them several different benefits, including the removal of all advertisements in this forum, but donations from non-members are also extremely appreciated.
Please click here for further information, or here to directly visit our Patreon donations page. -
Please click here for information about a large petition to help children in need.
Calc Stacking Issue (Regarding Speed)
- Thread starter ProfessorKukui4Life
- Start date
-
- Tags
- calc stacking
- Status
- 16,927
- 4,844
- Thread starter
- #42
But the parameters in terms of methods are different though. That's my point.
Like I said, in terms of finding speed from AP, DarkDragon already laid out parameters above that explain AP can come from areas that aren't related to speed at all. Meaning, from that angle, speed more than likely wouldn't even be able to be used in the first place, as opposed to using a characters speed to find another characters speed.
- 16,927
- 4,844
- Thread starter
- #43
By "power levels" he means if the calc's result doesnt contradict the statistics of the verse and doesn't become inconsistent. Like if a verse doesn't have anything to make FTL inconsistent for example.
- 12,425
- 4,539
That's literally cherry picking tho
- 2,317
- 1,083
ah i see
- 16,927
- 4,844
- Thread starter
- #46
How is a verse that has feats and context to support what the calcs results are, and a verse not having feats and context to support them, cherry picking?
Different cases isn't cherry picking.
- 15,563
- 11,852
All of those would be an immediate result of the punch's kinetic energy anyway so I disagree with that.
Either way, this is a lot of wiki standards that would be changed even ignoring speed from KE- there are no such details with Inverse Square Law or Relativistic KE.
- 16,927
- 4,844
- Thread starter
- #48
I mean, sure your fine to disagree with them, but that doesnt change the point that since the parameters involve alternate explanations unrelated to speed, speed can't be assumed first and 9/10 can't be used anyway, so the case of getting speed from AP isn't the same situation as getting a characters speed from another characters speed.
If you want to tackle revising them, be my guest. Not that I disagree or agree with you necessarily, but those situations aren't of my concern for what's happening here with this thread.
- 10,496
- 11,506
Honestly, I feel like not disregarding the following part of the page would have solved like 90% of the arguments brought up:
As for when that was decided, the answer is long before you joined and even before I joined, even if I was the one that put the assumptions into text about 6 years ago. (and not without the approval of the past members I might add)
Calc stacking is literally the act of amplifying random noise for upgrades and expects authors to be consistent with our fan calculations. (or for that matter be consistent in all interactions of any of their characters for extended amounts of time.)
As for when that was decided, the answer is long before you joined and even before I joined, even if I was the one that put the assumptions into text about 6 years ago. (and not without the approval of the past members I might add)
- 2,317
- 1,083
my issue is that way way way too many things are taken as calc stacking
z manga speed calc when frieza is blocked by goku who was ON THE OTHER SIDE OF THE PLANET was denied because 'calc stacking'
- 15,327
- 14,954
I don’t agree with Calc Stacking by any means, it just leads to a lot of stacked assumptions, if someone calcs a speed in a specific moment and uses it to calculate the speed of another thing in that very same moment, then sure, that’s one thing, but unless speed is given by the story, I don’t support Calc Stacking
- 10,496
- 11,506
The feat is perfectly calculable by assuming (or measuring) a timeframe and using that. Expecting Akira Toriyama to have planned out this feat with our fan-calculated and scaled speed for Frieza in mind is unrealistic.
I am always careful about writing rules in absolutes and back in the days, I was even more so. Perhaps if there is truly crushing evidence it would be possible, but as far as experience goes the "usually" might as well not be there.
- 16,927
- 4,844
- Thread starter
- #54
Ah so this basically comes from a very old practice that was done on the site prior to our arrival here.
What stacked assumptions though? Thats kinda what my thread here is trying to overturn by arguing it should be acceptable on case by case basis's where there's no alteration of speed done across instances and that the verse and it's context has evidence to support the idea of other character's being scaled to the speeds.
If this was just about "assumption" for those scaled characters, I wouldn't have made this thread. On top of that, as I said in some replies above, calc stacking can also be treated under a similar vein to multipliers. The more you try calc stacking, the bigger the burden of proof becomes to substantiate it.
- 2,317
- 1,083
i don't see how it is
- 16,979
- 22,781
I think this is what the OP is aiming to ask or state is valid.
- 16,927
- 4,844
- Thread starter
- #57
^This
If the verse has good evidence to support the result of combined calcs, then it should be accepted. If not? Yeet the calc then. Hence, judging it case by case. All im asking of here really.
- 15,563
- 11,852
if it's the same feat that's not calc stacking, if a beam flies from the moon to earth in 5 seconds and a character dodges it that dodge can be calculated after the beam is
- 10,496
- 11,506
Do you think he thought "Oh, in some prior instance I made a character do something that, if someone should calculated, should give this speed. Frieza should be faster than that and Goku, being faster than Frieza, would be able to cross exactly this distance in the time of the attack"? I don't think that's likely.
Yes, although for a member that joined yesterday the same can be said about every practice we have.
The suggested case-by-case doesn't quite sound as restrictive as "evidence more crushing than anything that has ever actually come up until this point".
Honestly, we are talking about scenarios where the evidence practically already stands on its own.
- 2,317
- 1,083
yes. not to the same detail but more so "goku can catch up to this before frieza do this"
- 16,927
- 4,844
- Thread starter
- #61
Im not sure author intent or author thought has much of a stake in this when it hardly matters overall. An author can unintentionally make characters as fast as X or be as fast as Y in many instances in their particular series. It doesn't mean that it's not consistent with the nature of the series.
- 10,496
- 11,506
Which is why the calc is fine, if done in a fashion that doesn't assume that the author knows what we rank Frieza's speed at. That's why we allow (low-end) assumptions on the timeframe, which represent the upper limit of how long an author, that doesn't care about vs-stat stuff, might think the scene takes.
- 10,496
- 11,506
There is a difference between the author making a character unintentionally fast, but showing this in the series he writes, and us upholding them to consistency standards they don't have to get stats beyond what the series actually shows on panel, by means of calc stacking based scaling.
Calc-stacking actually uses the idea of author intent more than just going by on-panel feats does, as it assume the authors intent to be consistent in something.
- 16,927
- 4,844
- Thread starter
- #64
Except, why would this matter when our site doesn't use on panel visualization as a means of saying a character's speed is altered from what it normally is?
Plus, again, what IF the series does show this? What if they do display the characters consistently hitting the mark in the speed department of what their claimed to be rated at? Consistent MFTL feats for characters being scaled from another characters MFTL feat? Consistent scaling? We wouldn't be upholding the author to consistency standards, but going off of what the material is providing for us to cement the calced speeds being applied.
- 10,496
- 11,506
Eh, what? We use on panel feats to judge literally all feats.
Or do you mean with "altered" that it "derivates from the calculated value"? Because then you have the inherent problem, that the character not derivating from the usual speed in the authors mind isn't the same as it not derivating from our fan-calculations.
Two calculations randomly landing within 10% of each other doesn't imply that the author constantly, at any time, has the characters move at the speed the calculations say.
Lack of quantifiable inconsistency doesn't prove consistency. You're still assuming that the fiction abides the fan calculation.
Worse yet, in doing a calculation based on these feats, you are assuming that these fan calculation values and something like the on-screen distance, were used to create another value.
- 16,927
- 4,844
- Thread starter
- #66
That’s not what I mean by on panel. What I mean that is that we don’t use the on panel depiction to say a character is moving at a different speed than they normally would.
And how is not the same? There’s literally no basis to claim this other than “fan calc”
And this also doesn’t mean the author doesn’t have the character randomly move at different speeds than what they are normally portrayed to move at, so should they choose to have the characters do that.
The character moving at the calced speeds or not in other instances at the discretion of the author doesn’t matter at that point as you are now arguing that the author wouldn’t think to keep their speed and movement portrayals at a constant and would, for some magical reason, have them move at an altered speed.
Not a counter point. You can’t dismiss a stat value for a character if there’s no quantifiably lower stat value given for them in any later depiction.
Not to mention, I don’t have to assume the fiction abides by it if it itself goes and gives us more depicted feats of the same value. I don’t have to assume a fiction abides by a calced MFTL feat if it gives us more MFTL feats. I don’t have to assume a fiction abides by a Rel+ feat if it gives us more Rel+ feats.
Because assuming a character will move at their normal speeds without any particular reason or circumstance to alter their speed is bad…because?
- 15,339
- 11,120
Does the OP have any examples of verses that something like this would apply to that wouldn't look like their speed is inflated?
- 16,927
- 4,844
- Thread starter
- #69
I can’t speak for any specific verses right now, but if you want an example of a qualifying one, it would be one where the characters who are scaled to the calced speed of another character have the ratings for reasons and justifications that are consistent with the context of the verse and do not conflict with it
- 14,823
- 12,244
What does "consistent with the context of the verse" mean? Does it just mean "There are no clear anti-feats", does it mean "Those characters are demonstrated as being (far) faster", does it mean "Those characters being faster is a vital plot point", does it mean "There are already other non-stacked feats within an order of magnitude this newly calced feat", or some specific combination of those?
- 16,927
- 4,844
- Thread starter
- #71
Yes, a combination of those factors (with supporting feats obviously being the most preferable of them to have)
Perhaps my wording or use of terms needs work when trying to clarify, but this should’ve been clear.
- 3,528
- 2,542
I totally understand this but I'm not sure if it will be a thing that'll pass
- 16,927
- 4,844
- Thread starter
- #73
Well going off of what the page at the moment specifies, it should. Fixed / non varied things are able to be used in other calc's just fine, and going by that same principle, a characters speed that doesn't magically fluctuate from what it normally is should be given the same treatment as the formers.
- 29,676
- 24,570
We don't have Calc Stacking guidelines for no reason.
I haven't seen a concrete reason yet for why we should change them and invite a lot of stacked calculations with outrageously high results onto the site. It does not seem worth it.
- 16,927
- 4,844
- Thread starter
- #75
Okay? I never said I didn't agree with the guidelines, my issue is the way the guidelines are being applied.
1) I just repeated the same reason I gave from the start, and it's the same reason things like distances and object sizes are allowed in. They don't vary or change. So a character's speed that doesn't magically change on a whim (outside of specific scenarios where it would) should be given the same treatment by this very same principle. There's no difference.
2) Also as I said above, "outrageously high results" is not a counter argument, or a reason for general dismissal of this, because it's not up to you to just dismiss a calc just because the result is high. What should determine the validity or invalidity of a calc's result is if the particular verse it's for does or does not make it an inconsistency. Which is part of the reason why my suggestion was to make this case by case.
- 14,823
- 12,244
For the purposes of scaling, we also don't say that a character's AP/Dura/LS doesn't fluctuate. idk why you're just applying it to speed, it seems like what you're suggesting should just delete calc stacking as a whole.
- 19,503
- 15,795
Yeah I'm with Damage here. Speeds are never consistent in-universe, even if we treat them as such on site. Superman doesn't always fly at a quadrillion times lightspeed on Earth and Luffy isn't always shown to be MHS+ or Relativistic. This is just something that will quickly snowball into stuff like "X dodged a close range Kick from Y who's Z speed, therefore with this calc they're in fact a trillion times FTL".
AP and lifting strength also heavily vary. We treat characters in this wiki as a composite-ish consistent high end version of the character which doesn't reflect their actual portrayals.
- 16,927
- 4,844
- Thread starter
- #78
Or or or, im suggesting that our take on calc stacking isn't to be so restrictive that we deny anything within a 1 ft radius of our sites profiles just because of "high results" being a thing and double standards.
- 16,927
- 4,844
- Thread starter
- #79
But on a normal basis when they aren't put in situations that would lower or alter their speeds, they would. Most certainly in scenarios like a battle or any set of circumstances where they are purposely moving at their average / full speed and have no reason to do any less than. I don't know where you or other's keep getting this idea that I'm proposing characters will always move at their rated speeds at every single moment, but that isn't what my suggestion here is.
This is why my point here is that this should be case by case, because there's no full yes or no to either side of this. X dodging a close range kick from Y who's casually holding them off or is fatigued isn't going to be using Z speed against them. But without either factor being the case, that is when Z speed would be a thing for them.
- 19,503
- 15,795
We're rather lenient actually. If something has a stated speed we use that. If multiple feats occur in the same thing we can use that. If a known distance is involved via dialogue we can again use that.
It really shouldn't. Because it leads to a massive ouroboros for speed scaling. Because you get things like Basil reacting to a kick then upscaling people based on them blitzing Basil, which can then be stacked later on. It creates more layers of calc stacking rather than fixing anything and will lead to inflated stats. The first that comes to mind is MFTL+ MCU because Thanos and What If characters can consistently react to CM's bullrushes.
- Status
