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Butters Loser Brackets: Round 9 Harvey Birdman vs Glass Joe

And your trying to pick one to make him suck as badly as possible. By your logic, alt endings can't be used (even though we definitely use them), Heavily implies possibilities can't be used (even though we definitely use them), and we need to ignore the Fact that even though joe puts up enough of a fight that he has the capability of winning. We should entirely ignore the fact he puts up a fight in the first place and just pretend he still sucks
 
And yet you're also implying that we use the best possible alternative for a fighter even though Punch Out doesn't really have an ending in the first place from what I understand. You can't have your cake and eat it too here.
 
I am using your own logic here dude. I'm willing to concede that Joe could maybe fight against world class boxers, but saying he's skilled enough to become the champion and using that as a skill feat is too far in my eyes and clearly only taking what fits your viewpoint.
 
I'm not implying we use the best possibly outcome. I'm saying we use the best skill he has shown in canon. Which in canon, is fighting with Championship little Mac.

You fail to use it correctly however. The pure fact he can win shows his skill is potent enough to have improved severally. Even if he didn't win in canon, the fact it's possible makes him undeniably more skilled. Your acting if We don't use the times he wins, he isn't skilled. But that's not how it works. Both outcomes are possible. Not because something magically changed in between them. But because both had the chance to win.
 
I'd say at most Joe scales to pretty good boxers but nothing world champion-wise considering he still could get floored by little Mac
 
You have zero evidence to say he was floored by mac. That's a baseless assumption.

Joe being skilled isn't baseless since the fact he can win is possible to be canon makes it far more plausible he is more skilled
 
Can and possible. Again, uncertainties in a wiki where there's only certainties. I can say words like that too. He could get floored by Mac, he could win. Both are equally as likely are they not?
 
My point has just as much ground as yours. Both of ours are possibilities. Yours is that Joe can put up a fight. Of course he can, all boxers do. I could put up a fight against a professional boxer. I'd still get trounced. Joe being able to lose means he can get floored by Mac. It has as much basis as your argument
 
No it doesn't.

My point has an actual canonical ending backing it up, with animation, record setting, and him getting the belt. Plus the fact in any ending he can put up a fight and just lose in the end. Him being capable of winning shows he is skilled, in any ending. Even if he loses

Your using the absolute worse outcome for him with no actual reason that can safely back up he loss that bad
 
And yet he still loses. My point is that he can still lose so we can't compare him to little max fully. As I said at best he scales to some pretty decent boxers for getting there in the first place. Odds are those guys don't have the insane supernatural abilities of the other boxers but I digress. The safest possible bet is saying he can make it to the championship but no, he can't win. Just because there's a cutscene doesn't mean it's absolutely 100% canon.
 
In the end. Yes. He still loses. But that's ignoring the fact

He still puts up a fight, and so much of a fight that he can win. Putting up enough of a fight where he can win is plenty of reason his skill has gotten way better. Not just a cutscene. It effects the game afterwards. His record, Macs record, he has the belt. Mac has to win the belt back before he clan go on, his record will never magically fix, its not a game over screen. He just can win. It's possible with his skills.
 
Just because it's not a game over screen doesn't mean it's canon. There are cutscenes first a lot of bonus shit in games, some simply Easter eggs. Doesn't make it any more or less canon. I simply don't believe joe is on the level of a world champion based off only the possibility because that possibility could be so unfathomably low
 
That's not even remotely comparable. This isn't any bonus clip or Easter egg. If it ended with just the clip. You'd have a much better argument. But it permanently, is on Macs record that he loss. It's permanently in Joes record that he won. And it's a permanently part of the game that can't ever be fixed unless you start a new game all together. Mac will always have that loss. No matter if he wins a rematch. The fights are even called rematches, doc confirms you have to win your belt Back, and Joe literally has the belt until you win it back,

He isn't the best in the world by end game. As Max and every boxer he fights gets better than him by the end. But his skill makes a massive jump to at least comparing with Make after his championship fight. Even if he doesn't win, he is still skilled enough to put up a fight
 
Any boxer can "put up a fight" against a skilled boxer yeah. Good for him I guess. I still personally think he only scales above some pretty decent boxers.
 
A decent boxer wouldn't put up a fight against the world champion. They would have to be skilled to put up a fight and have the capacity to win. But not decent boxer is taking on Mike Tyson
 
Plausible why? Because there's a cutscene that says so? If someone were to beat Mike Tyson yeah there wouldn't be a cutscene. Doesn't mean it wouldn't or couldn't happen.
 
Because cutscenes, backed up by Docs statements, backed up by both their records canonically always being effected by this fight, backed up by the fact Joe literally has the belt too.
 
And that would also happen if anyone beat the irl boxing champion of your region or division or whatever no matter how low they compare in skill.
 
Except that would never happen.

Joe vs Mac is largely different in the match Joe fights and wins and the Match Mac fights and wins are largely the same. The only difference is the winner of the outcome. But some freshly unlikely thing didn't end up happening in either fight

Unless something 100 percent implausible happened. Mike Tyson would beat an average boxer 10 out of 10 times: the only way he loses is in largely and widely unreal conditions happening. And that doesn't describe Joes fight at all. Which was just a normal boxing match
 
I'll keep this quick and efficient. I'm not particularly impressed with either combatant. We haven't talked about Harvey much have we? Heh.

Harvey: Flight, Intelligence, plan making, higher stamina (Very high vs high (and LM has superhuman so that should probably be fixed?)), can absorb sunlight it seems, so he isn't going to run out of energy anytime soon from the looks of it, an actual weapon in the form of a guitar, arguably experience I'd think.

Joe: Has a helmet, A higher but not insurmountable amount of skill, more LS

Equals: You can argue they're equal in skill and experience and I'd give that to you. They both have the same intelligence rating too, but I think for different reasons and Harvey's reasons are better. Joe knows boxing fairly well and that's awesome. Harvey could make quick plans mid-fight and be able to execute them well enough.

I will say Joe only has experience against boxers so he's not going to be used to other fighting styles, which Harvey is going to bring to the table. A lot of the things Harvey is going to do is probably going to be illegal in a boxing ring. Throwing items or otherwise works wonders. I'm know you said Harvey would go in for fisticuffs first but if that doesn't seem to be working, I doubt he's going to keep doing it, so he's switch up his plans somehow.

And I'm done with this for today.
 
Flight is useless. As I have explained multiple times

Intelligence is ehh. He is smart in the way of manipulating and lawyering. And even not that much there. Combat wise he is a sucky super hero. He can still fight, and better then your average person, but nothing super hero impressive.

Plan making won't work, he doesn't really have much to plan, and can't do that mid combat since he has to fight up close. Plus he wouldn't. He would try melee. Not much else he can plan on. He is more a range fighter

A weapon. Hardly. It's a guitar. Not even a typically large or very durable one. He would get a good smack or two before that thing breaks apart. Wouldn't even really use it as a melee weapon. And even major rip if he wins for the head, which would get nulled by the helmet. Definitely wouldn't open with it at the very least too.

Sunlight is for his powers. Not his normal energy, this proven that he can get the crap beaten out of him and he won't heal faster or last long cause if the sun. It's helpful for his powers. But he does not have them

Experience is on the table. Both have fought and sucked for an unknown but definitely long amount of time. No reason either would be assumed to have more experience since we don't know how long exactly.

I mean. Harvey's fighting style won't do much well. He is a range and magic fighter. Powerless limits him severely. He doesn't do much of any melee, and the better sorts of tactics he could do isn't happening due to LS. All he can to is attack.


Joe is still very skilled by the end of the game. No matter how you try and twist it. The fact he stood in actual decent chance and put up a good fight, in a Normal match. (So none of that "oh well someone Could beat Mike Tyson, cause that's not plausible in a normal fight") means he is skilled a very skilled one
 
I counted the vote regardless.

But it sleeps on Joes skills heavily. Harvey can fight, and fight better than an average person. Joe can fight a world champion and put up a decent fight if not win. Clear difference in skill there
 
If he's more a ranged fighter he'd just end up throwing shit. And mori votes for harvey and he told me he's sticking with Harvey so

Alright now I'm done
 
No reason to believe that. We do have reason to believe he would go melee on the fact he actually knows melee combat. He prefers his range because that's his power. Creating and shooting lasers. But since he also knows how to fight melee decently, and shows to fight in melee if in it or needed, he will engage. They don't start out at a range anyway. So he definitely goes melee. And joe has melee all together better via AP, durability, head gear which nullifies damage on his head, and skill to match at least, and should surpass it by quite a bit.
 
Harvey FRA

At least he can win something unlike Joe, and that one win didnt even count, as that was only PIS of him defeating a final boss, which was only an accident.
 
I mean that's wrong. He entirely is able to win agaisnt Mac by the end of the game. End game Joe is vastly superior to his past.
 
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