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Butters Loser Brackets: Round 9 Harvey Birdman vs Glass Joe

Buttersamuri

Buttersamuri

13,314
628
And now we bring back our previous winners to fight once again. This time we being our first returning Winner/Loser, Harvey Birdma from the Harvey Birdman series, Submitted by Psychomaster35, going up against Glass Joe, from the Punch Out series, Submitted by Me!

The Current Standings

Speed was equal

Harvey Birdman scales under 516,644.24 Joules

Glass Joe scales to 540,262 Joules

Let's do this!

Glass Joe:

Harvey Birdma: 2

Inconclusive/Draw:
 
Buttersamuri said:
Flying ain't gonna be good since our of character without powers.
Click to expand...
Wouldn't he still do it if he notices that it'd give him an advantage against someone like joe? Either way more experience helps a ton and shouldn't he technically be more skilled?
 
Not really no.

He was a crappy hero. He would maybe have experience. But even that's debatably since we don't know how long he was one. He just was one. But he sucked at it. It's also noted he is pretty rusty too. So experience is definitely on the table.
 
Should probably be more skilled than the dude who lost to his student who also has 99 losses. Also in other threads you claim that Harvey is rather experienced and still has skill on his side. The difference numerically is practically irrelevant here.
 
I mean, Glass Joe never really uses any of that "Experience"

Let's not forget that this is the guy that lost to a 17 year old with little combat experience.
 
Joaco0902 said:
I mean, Glass Joe never really uses any of that "Experience"
Let's not forget that this is the guy that lost to a 17 year old with little combat experience.
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And his own student....which he himself trained...who still got 99 losses
 
Adem Warlock69 said:
he at least has 1 wi
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Which I believe in-universe was considered a fluke. A freak accident.

"in a freak accidental win against Nick Bruiser, states the Official Nintendo Magazine Punch-Out!! programmer."

And Nick's canonical win-loss record isn't still 42-0. It's arguable that it even counts as Joe's win and he just says it does

Glass Joe has experience, yes, but it's experience losing.
 
Rather experienced. Yes. He has been a hero for an implied while. But we have no actual viewpoint how long exactly. Same for Joe. That's why I said it's on the table. Harvey was a sucky hero. Joe was a sucky boxer

Lost to his student ain't canon to this version iirc. regardless. Gotta pay attention to end game Joe too. Can't write that verion out. Who's in the world championship. Which says a lot on its own. Yes, start game Joe is far weaker. But end game Joe is Far more skilled.
 
Not much though considering his win-loss record doesn't change. Gotta pay attention to that. He's somehow in the world champion but never gets a win during that. He's loss all of his fights and only won one on a technicality it seems. That says a lot on its own.

This can go either way mate. You can say Glass Joe is impressive, but there's a lot also saying...he just isn't. I think someone who was a superhero should arguably be better than someone who...isn't a good boxer for the most part. Joe isnt good. You can say as much as you want but there are clear facts he isn't a good boxer while there's only implications and possibilities that he may be better
 
Also gotta pay attention to the fact he can beat little Mac at that point. If you use that logic of his record doesn't change. He record does change if Mac losses. Aka. Glass Joe After Mac won the championship, can win and stand with him in a fight.

You are trying to use both arguments to knock down Joe worse. Using his record as a means to say it's not impressive that he made it to the championship. But also not using his record even though he can actually win canonically and effect the record post championship.

This isn't a Maybe. He Can win by the championship. The game confirms it. It effects both their records. He has the belt after the match, and Mac specifically has to win it back. It's not a game over. It's a rematch battle to win the belt back. Adding in his tactics clearly change in the fight, and has had plenty of time to improve. Winning is more than an implication.

And you also use he is a super hero. But ignore the fact he isn't a good super hero. Yes, he still should know how to fight and shows he does. But so does joe
 
Yeah okay but ca doesn't mean he actually does it. I Could beat a professional boxer under the right conditions does that mean I should be treated like it's a certainty? No. Not at all. It's a possibility all the same and not a certainty. You're using a possibility and treating it like a certainty which doesn't feel right no matter how we slice it. We know he could, but to assume this Glass Joe is a version of him who actually did it is just leaning it in favor towards him and going against most of his showings.

With Harvey there's less possibilities to go off of here. We don't have to assume anything. I don't like using possibilities as certainties in a debate such as this.
 
Except that's a Huge HUGE difference. "Under the right conditions". The condition of this fight was they fought like any other normal fight. That's a seriously poor comparison as nothing special made Joe win. It's just a normal fight. He just entirely has the possibility to win. Hell. He can win the first fight.
 
Okay so can I go into a Mac fight and say he's shit because he ca lose to glass joe in the first fight? Mike Tyson lost to Glass Joe when playing Punch-Out!! after all.
 
First fight sure. We can just say he was shit and that's why joe won. That's fair as that's logical to assume. It was Mac from the very start.

Second fight. No way. He literally is the champion of the world. Not for a single second would you be right to call him shit in that fight. It would be baseless. Nothing proves or implies that.
 
If someone's skill feat is losing 99 times in boxing, that's a really shitty skill feat.

Harvey Birdman uses versatility with flight to beat Joe with strategies he isn't prepared for.
 
That Ignores his end game feats. Him end game got way better

Harvey has no versatility here. He is powerless. All he can do is melee.
 
He does have more range, can fly, should be able to scheme up more ways to fight as well. Joe is rather limited when it comes to boxing, to be quite honest. I think boxing is generally speaking more limited than most fighting styles.

and Harvey has more stamina
 
End game feats don't mean much compared to a goddamn 99 loss streak.
 
He has no range because he has no powers. He doesn't use flying without powers cause there is no point and he never tried that. He would try melee.

Even though the stamina is inaccurate atm. He probably could have more. But it wouldn't be much.
 
Moritzva said:
End game feats don't mean much compared to a goddamn 99 loss streak.
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Yes they do. That is horrible logic. If someone gets better by the end of the game but just had a sucky past. That doesn't mean jack shit to their current status. End game >>> Start game
 
Extended melee range with guitar. It's something. I think Harvey, being as smart as he is, would realize flying would be better for him against an opponent like Joe.

and like I said I still don't like the idea of running on a possibility. I could possibly beat a trained soldier. Doesn't mean I know shit the soldier knows.
 
You think. He wouldn't think of that. Cause he doesn't think like that.

Him winning as a possibility means his skill is high enough to where he could win. That's what matters. His skill can get him a win, meaning his skill has dramatically increased. That's the important part. He doesn't even have to have won the fight. Just by the shown video that he can put up enough of a fight to win gives him way more skill
 
Yes they do. That is horrible logic. If someone gets better by the end of the game but just had a sucky past. That doesn't mean jack shit to their current status. End game >>> Start game

Getting slightly better than being absolutely horrible is still not very good.
 
Which you're basing on an assumption that something could happen with no proof that it does happen at some point. Only reason why you can lose is becuase yes, it's a game, and you can play poorly. Oh boy. A lot more video game bosses are suddenly better based off that logic.
 
Yes they do. That is horrible logic. If someone gets better by the end of the game but just had a sucky past. That doesn't mean jack shit to their current status. End game >>> Start game

Getting slightly better than being absolutely horrible is still not very good.

"Getting slightly better"

Going from a guy who won once to a guy who puts up a fight with the world champion and even the capability to canonically win is not slightly better
 
Jackythejack said:
Which you're basing on an assumption that something could happen with no proof that it does happen at some point. Only reason why you can lose is becuase yes, it's a game, and you can play poorly. Oh boy. A lot more video game bosses are suddenly better based off that logic.
Click to expand...
Not an assumption. A flat out thing that Can in fact be canon. It's not assumed. It's downright entirely 100 percent possible.

I'm not comparing him to the absolute end game Mac cause that's not who he fights and can win against. I'm comparing him to the championship Mac who he does fight and compare with

If a boss fights with the player from the start of the game. Then that's what we compare them to. If a boss fights them Mid game. That's what we compare them to. Same with end game
 
And on this wiki we don't work on possibilities. We work on certainties. You're one hundred percent certain that it's a possibility, but that's not how that work. We don't normally scale people off of others due to a possibility, or at the very least we shouldn't. You're trying to make a wiki of certainties accept a possibility, which doesn't work
 
Bull on that. We definitely use the possibilities if a boss can fight with another person. That means they both are physically and skill wise within each other's league. And that's what matters. The fact it Can be canon makes it usable. Hell, it Could be canon for all you know. We even use the alt ending in games like Donkey Kong country and other ones.
 
Or it could be completely and utterly non-canon for all we know. All we know is that Glass Joe gets a bit better and knows to not be as predictable as he always is. Besides that we can only assume he's on the same level as Mac even though Mac could still trounce him
 
Basically he could win, but he could also be trounced completely without ever landing a single hit throughout the entirety of the game.
 
Basically my main point is that Joe could maybe win. Mac could also maybe go through the whole game without getting hit and no one even being close to comparing to him in skill because he completely trounces all of the competition because Mac is just that good and untouchable.

The problem here? Both are equally canon according to your logic. You just happen to be picking the one which favors Joe the most
 
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