Bull vs Dragon —Yami Sukehiro vs Mori Jin

[Schnee_One]

Mori FRA

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

Regardless, I think this is grace.

 

[MindControl116]

This is kind of the point. Mori is so skilled that he was able to completely dominate against someone who has precog.

No, that is NOT the point, that is the opposite of the point. The very thing you're quoting is telling you that, seemingly, the reason Mori won is because Dean was weakened. Such a feat doesn't suddenly mean he can stomp everyone who has precognition, that's an absolutely ridiculous claim.

I'm not sure why he wouldn't be able to do that here. As Yami is dramatically less skilled when compared to Dean.

Except (1) there is no way of proving Dean is more skilled. And if there is a way, then the burden of proof is on you (2) Dean was weakened, making whatever superiority Dean has over Yami basically irrelevant.

Whereas Yami seems to focus far less on actual martial ability in battle. (His hax seems to see him through, as does his ki sensing).

I'm not sure why you think this. Yami is an expert swordsman. He has never lost a sword duel in his verse. I can't imagine how that can possible translate "he is not very skilled in martial abilities." Dude can sword fight with an almost non-existing broken blade.

Additionally, I just reread the Ilpyo fight for clarification. It's true that it says that Ilpyo reads his attacks through contact. And yet, throughout the entire fight he is able to counteract what Mori does despite them not being physically touching before either of them launches an attack (so either we go based upon what it says or what's shown). Ilpyo's purpose in that fight was to essentially teach Mori, but he was still defeated.

All this tells me is that, Ilpyo, being Mori's teacher, knows Mori well enough to be able to tell to understand what Mori is going to do decently well even without precognition. Knowing that a character is going to throw an attack at you because it is obvious from experience and context clues that he will do so is not a precognition feat, that's more of "being able to use common sense within combat." Even if we complete ignore what was said and only focus on what was shown, this doesn't really prove that Ilpyo is using precognition in that particular scenario. Otherwise, a character being able to counteract any move at all would have to count as a precognition feat.

After pointing out the three weaknesses in his style, Mori first uses other styles to compensate, and then immediately transitions into correcting the weaknesses of his own style. This is all taking into account that Mori is already fairly injured going into the fight (he notes that his brain feels like it's shaking, and Ilpyo is able to take advantage of the fact that Mori's body is already strained). This is not the case here.

This doesn't really disprove the above points. We already established that Mori isn't really affected by injuries, and that doesn't have anything to do with the precognition aspect of the fight, or lack thereof. This just tells me that Mori knows how to adapt to his opponents very well and this is why he can overcome them.

Also, I'm not sure if we've addressed such. But Mori can amplify himself 8x with Bongchim Na Acupuncture. And speed blitz Yami/overwhelm him with skill in a moment. It's incredibly doubtful that Yami's precog is potent enough to keep up with someone 8x faster than him.

He definitely can. He has kept up with opponents so fast that he can't see them and that can teleport. Speed is usually a non-advantage against Yami. Also, to be fair, Yami can amplify himself as well, so amplifications are ultimately not a decisive factor.

As for Yami, and please correct me if I'm wrong, one of his better feats of limiting breaking was when the black bulls fought Vetta. Yet, outside of statements by Yami, there is little indication of how much stronger he got. As everything he did after he got stronger, was all hax. His strength could very have been him getting a new spell.

That's just not true. IDK why everyone acts like Yami's only form of accelerated development is learning new spells. We have seen how, in the fight against Patri, he wasn't exactly struggling per se, but he wasn't winning either, he was kind of at a stalemate. As soon of the members of the Third Eye attacked him, all of whom are stronger and faster than Patri (keep in mind Patri was largely blitzing Yami for the first half of the fight before he adapted to the speed), Yami suddenly was keeping up with all three members to a decent extent in spite of this, suggesting that he powered up. Of course, he was still going to lose eventually because he was outnumbered and there were people he had to protect, and he had to also make sure the cave didn't collapse completely and killed them all. But the fact is, he was doing not great, and yet when faced against better and more opponents, he was still keeping up for quite a bit. He managed to adapt to develop himself twice in the battle. Once against Patri, when he became fast enough that Patri wasn't able to blitz him anymore, and then when the Third Eye joined the fray.

Also, I don't know why people downplay learning spells like it does nothing for Yami. Given what we have seen from Yami, there is nothing that stops Yami from developing a spell with properties designed to specifically counteract Mori. That particular ability is very useful in a fight like this, and we know Yami can do this because (1), in general, it has been established that when a spell is developed in a crisis, they usually come in the just the appropriate form to optimally counteract said crisis: Noelle developing a stupidly OP offensive spell when she needed it most, Vanessa learning how to control fate when, you know, that was the only specific thing capable of saving the day, etc. And (2) an example specific to Yami is learning how to cut space in an scenario in which the only possible way to escape from the scenario alive was by learning how to do precisely just that. My point is that there is precedent in Black Clover for developing what seems like are ridiculous hax that are meant to specifically counteract an otherwise impossible scenario. And Yami himself has examples of this. So I'm not sure why Yami developing a new hax is being treated as a non-factor in this fight or as not particularly useful. And I'm not saying this is enough to win against Mori, but cmon, I think it's unreasonable to treat this as something Mori can just brush off.

 

[Sir_Ovens]

How was Dean weakened again? He was invulnerable thanks to the Armoursuits and every attack Mori could pull, Dean could see 5 seconds in advance. In fact, before recoilless, Mori was at a severe disadvantage.

 

[Duedate8898]

No, Mori was weakened and it was thanks to him being weakened and him going back to his roots, that he was able to defeat Dean. I didn't mean to create that confusion. My point was that Mori had a plan, one that Dean would not be able to see because of how long it would be before it took effect. That and and him upgrading his Re-Tae Kwon Do is why he defeated Dean. He never messed up Dean's Precognition, he just knew the weaknesses of what Dean was doing and managed to have a major breakthrough due to his weakened state.

 

[Sir_Ovens]

That isn't 100% true though, Dean looked into the future towards the end and he saw no future where he wasn't beaten to a complete pulp.

 

[Duedate8898]

No, what happened was that Dean looked into the future, not realizing that Mori was going to predict him and so when he went for his counter Mori knew what to do.

 

[Sir_Ovens]

Even disregarding the precognition thing, Mori's 8x amp is still much more than Yami can handle, especially with the speed boost.

 

[Litentric_Teon]

Honestly, I'm a bit too busy with irl stuff to give this a decent reply before the 15th. My apologies for those that were enjoying the debate.

 

[MindControl116]

I'm still being given conflicting information. And I am not convinced by the claim that Yami would not be able to handle such an amp, I just don't see a solid enough argument as for why that would be true, especially since I think he is being grossly misrepresented as a character in this thread, and I gave examples of how this is the case.

I honestly don't feel like this conversation is going to progress any further than this, so I am voting inconclusive for this fight. From what I understand, Yami has a solid chance of landing Dimensional Slash, and also, accelerated development is somewhat of a big deal too. Mori can definitely use his amps, but I already talked about examples of Yami being able to keep up with people who are stronger and faster than himself, and he even held his own for a bit against multiple people at once at that, and I think his precognition, reinforcement magic, mana zone, and his swordsmanship skills greatly help close the gap pretty significantly, although Mori would still have the edge in those aspects. Acupuncture seems like Mori's best move in this fight, and if he lands it, it'll be lethal for Yami, but since he has to watch out for the Dimensional Slashes (and it's not like he can't dodge them, but still, he is forced to react defensively), I'm not sure it would be easy for Mori to do this. And things could easily go south for Mori due to accelerated development too. I guess it does, to a large extent, does come down to who lands the first hit. But that type of scenario is precisely why I think inconclusive is more reasonable. I do see that Mori probably has a slightly higher likelihood of winning than Yami due to him being more versatile, but I haven't been convinced that this difference is big enough.

Inconclusive FRA.

 

[Sir_Ovens]

A 7.5x difference in AP is already considered a stomp by our standards. Even if Yami can grow stronger as the fight progresses, he's going to be 1 shot the moment Mori lands a hit.

 

[N_Kardashev]

This can be added

 

[Nitro90]

So does Yami, his accelerated development allows him to get stronger, faster, and develop new techniques on the fly.

How is acupuncture activated again?

General question isn't that more of Reactive Power Level for yami?

 

[Sir_Ovens]

This match has past its grace and so I'm adding it.

 

[KingTempest]

This match has past its grace and so I'm adding it.

Sorry to bother you, but it's not shown on his profile.
Actually, none of his fights are on his profile anymore

 

[Sir_Ovens]

The match was made back when Mori had a Low 6-B key. He no longer has that key, therefore the match was removed.

 

[KingTempest]

Gotcha, thanks for informing me