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Bull vs Dragon —Yami Sukehiro vs Mori Jin

Mori Jin is still capable of constantly adapting his fighting style to match his opponent. Precog can only help you so much when you're hopelessly outgunned in terms of versatility.

Plus, acupuncture would overwhelm Yami due to the increase in speed and AP.
 
Sir Ovens said:
Mori Jin is still capable of constantly adapting his fighting style to match his opponent. Precog can only help you so much when you're hopelessly outgunned in terms of versatility.
Plus, acupuncture would overwhelm Yami due to the increase in speed and AP.
Click to expand...
So does Yami, his accelerated development allows him to get stronger, faster, and develop new techniques on the fly.

How is acupuncture activated again?
 
Mori just touches his temple with two of his fingers and he is instantly amped.
 
Mori would instinctively dodge it. His body is capable of moving without his conscious input. Plus, Mori has fought sword wielders before without being tagged on top of having techniques specifically used to disarm sword wielders like hwechook.
 
If Yami keeps firing off darkness attacks with his sword, he won't have a chance to use an amp. Furthermore, Dark Dimension Slash has hundreds of meters of range iirc, dodging that seems very difficult, especially since he can spam it.
 
Also, with Mana Zone, Yami will begin to see Mori's moves before he even preforms them, so he can get him to dodge one slash, and then fire off another where he intends to dodge.
 
It's literally just touching his head. It isn't complex. Plus, even if Mori loses a limb or two, he will still be fighting at full force.
 
Mori's body moves without him thinking. Plus, the moment Mori sees Yami's attacks, he can copy them and know exactly the extent of his capabilities.
 
Speed is equalized here, and the moment Yami let's off the first attack, Mori will understand how his space cutting works and amp himself.

Moreover, Mori's opening move is literally to appear in front of Yami and attack him in close quarters.
 
Thing is, Yami will amp himself too with Reinforcement Magic, and Mana Zone.

If Mori gets close Yami has black hole, which will suck Mori in and paralyze him.
 
Mori literally only needs to hit Yami once to paralyse him and cause him immense amounts of pain.
 
Acupuncture can break barriers. It broke past Aegis Shield and increases Mori's AP when performed. Precog isn't really an answer to being overwhelmed because sure, it will help Yami to an extent, but just like Dean said: "Just because you can see the meteor, doesn't mean you can stop it."
 
The thing is, can he break a barrier composed of magic? It's less a barrier, and more like a force pushing any attacks on it out. In Yami's case it does help, as he adapts at extremely fast rates, which will in turn make it easier for him to deal with the AP gap.
 
Isn't Yami's adaptation more him getting stronger, faster, and developing new techniques, as in spells primarily? Mori's is similar, but he is vastly more skilled.

I'm also unsure of how Yami's precog, even the two types, are superior to someone who can literally see the known future 5 seconds ahead of time continuously. And Mori was defeating him with pure skill, as his weakened self.

The biggest issue here isn't the precog. Or the two of them growing stronger/faster as the fight develops. The largest issue is that the gap in skill between the two of them will be undergoing a massive widening. Yami's adaptation is normally him getting a new spell, not becoming skilled enough to copy techniques he's never seen and begin skill stomping an opponent he's only been fighting for a brief while. Yet, Mori has feats akin to this. On top of already beginning with a massive skill advantage in CQC.

Lastly, I don't see how putting two fingers on one's head is any slower than raising and swinging down an entire sword. A rotation of the elbow for finger placement may even be faster than having to raise an entire arm wielding a sword up and down.

Also, I'm not sure if mana zone can outright push out physical bodies that have comparable AP to the wielder. But please correct me if I'm wrong.
 
Isn't Yami's adaptation more him getting stronger, faster, and developing new techniques, as in spells primarily? Mori's is similar, but he is vastly more skilled.

Yes.

I'm also unsure of how Yami's precog, even the two types, are superior to someone who can literally see the known future 5 seconds ahead of time continuously. And Mori was defeating him with pure skill, as his weakened self.

Yami's precognition was comparable to Julius, who can do the same thing.

The biggest issue here isn't the precog. Or the two of them growing stronger/faster as the fight develops. The largest issue is that the gap in skill between the two of them will be undergoing a massive widening. Yami's adaptation is normally him getting a new spell, not becoming skilled enough to copy techniques he's never seen and begin skill stomping an opponent he's only been fighting for a brief while. Yet, Mori has feats akin to this. On top of already beginning with a massive skill advantage in CQC.

It's not limited to him getting a new spell, he gets stronger, and faster. Such a drastic increase in strength he's able to destroy things in one attack he previously couldn't before, and this is through him just watching a fight. His rate during fighting is even faster.

Lastly, I don't see how putting two fingers on one's head is any slower than raising and swinging down an entire sword. A rotation of the elbow for finger placement may even be faster than having to raise an entire arm wielding a sword up and down.

Yami was able to get off his space cut from meters away against an opponent who slipped through space to escape, and drew blood from him.

Also, I'm not sure if mana zone can outright push out physical bodies that have comparable AP to the wielder. But please correct me if I'm wrong.

Mana Zone doesn't do it, just the sheer density of mana around him can. And yes, it can, Luck was able to push Asta's should from hitting him, and they were comparable.
 
Milly Rocking Bandit said:
If Yami keeps firing off darkness attacks with his sword, he won't have a chance to use an amp. Furthermore, Dark Dimension Slash has hundreds of meters of range iirc, dodging that seems very difficult, especially since he can spam it.
Click to expand...
That's true, but they already mentioned that he has teleportation. Dodging it would be easy.
 
Also, Yami's precognition is not comparable to Julius', that is false. Technically, speaking, whayt Yami has is not so much precognition, but analytical prediction. Julius can literally see the future in every detail, not just predict the opponent's moves.
 
Milly Rocking Bandit said:
Yami can predict where he's going to go and hit him with the next one he uses, as he can use these constantly.
Click to expand...
Yeah, and that's not the same as Julius' precognition. Besides, you act like it is impossible to dodge Dimensional Slash. We have seen Dante dodge it via teleportation. Just because Yami can use ki does not guarantee the move will land. If that fallacy were true, Dante would not have been able to dodge. So, sure, he has ki, but that doesn't give him any decisive advantage in this situation. Arguing that the move can't be dodged is also borderline NLF.
 
That's not what I said... at all. I've said twice he can fire a second one in the position Mori will go via precognition. I never said it was the same, I said it was comparable.
 
I mean if Yami does fire off a second swing at where Mori is, the most he'll get out of it is a lost limb from Mori, which we have already established won't hinder Mori in the slightest.
 
Milly Rocking Bandit said:
That's not what I said... at all. I've said twice he can fire a second one in the position Mori will go via precognition. I never said it was the same, I said it was comparable.
Click to expand...
And I'm telling you it's not comparable. They don't have remotely the same properties, and Ki is just a lot more limited, something that the story itself has established. And Yami has never been shown firing two dimensional slashes simultaneously. Shooting one after the other won't do the work. The whole point of teleportation is that it's instantaneous. If he fires a second one, Jin could just teleport again. If he can dodge one slash, then he can dodge multiple, because again, Yami has never been shown to fire two slashes at once.
 
Sir Ovens said:
I mean if Yami does fire off a second swing at where Mori is, the most he'll get out of it is a lost limb from Mori, which we have already established won't hinder Mori in the slightest.
Click to expand...
Doesn't Mori have Regenerationn? Can Dimensional Slash even really kill Mori?
 
MindControl116 said:
Milly Rocking Bandit said:
That's not what I said... at all. I've said twice he can fire a second one in the position Mori will go via precognition. I never said it was the same, I said it was comparable.
Click to expand...
And I'm telling you it's not comparable. They don't have remotely the same properties, and Ki is just a lot more limited, something that the story itself has established. And Yami has never been shown firing two dimensional slashes simultaneously. Shooting one after the other won't do the work. The whole point of teleportation is that it's instantaneous. If he fires a second one, Jin could just teleport again. If he can dodge one slash, then he can dodge multiple, because again, Yami has never been shown to fire two slashes at once.
Click to expand...
You aren't giving proof at all, especially since Dante said it's good, but not as good as Julius, implying they're comparable. Yami actually has, he used Dimension Slash against the Devil, then Equinox.
 
You aren't giving proof at all, especially since Dante said it's good, but not as good as Julius, implying they're comparable.

No, that doesn't imply they're comparable, it implies the opposite. If some ability scales above another in some way or just is superior to another, then by definition, they are not comparable. Comparable would be if Julius' wasn't superior.

Code: 
Yami actually has, he used Dimension Slash against the Devil, then Equinox.
Show me a scan, because that's nonsense. He didn't use two simultaneous slashes in that fight. If he used a regular Dimensional Slash, then a bit of time passed, and THEN he used Equinox, then by definition, it is not simultaneous.
 
MindControl116 said:
You aren't giving proof at all, especially since Dante said it's good, but not as good as Julius, implying they're comparable.
Click to expand...
No, that doesn't imply they're comparable, it implies the opposite. If some ability scales above another in some way or just is superior to another, then by definition, they are not comparable. Comparable would be if Julius' wasn't superior.


Code: 
Yami actually has, he used Dimension Slash against the Devil, then Equinox.
Show me a scan, because that's nonsense. He didn't use two simultaneous slashes in that fight. If he used a regular Dimensional Slash, then a bit of time passed, and THEN he used Equinox, then by definition, it is not simultaneous.

It's entirely possible for you to be comparable to someone superior. The first fight Goku and Vegeta had is proof of that.

Fair enough, but from the way he casually uses it doesn't even remotely sound like it requires too much effort. It was literally his second move against Dante.
 
It would be less about which precog is superior and more behind the mechanics of a pre-cog. By the way, I just read the fight between Mori and Dean. In that battle, Mori doesn't actually beat the pre-cog. It's not even noted that he does, all that really seems to happen is Mori outskilling Dean purely due to his now weakened state. So the idea that he could replicate in his younger state doesn't seem to work out.

On the idea of Ilpyo Park, his analytical prediction is a lot more limited in comparison to Yami's. Enlightenment relies on touching the opponent and holds the inherit weakness that multiple attacks are hard to read at once. Not just that, but Ilpyo was always looking for Re-Taw And Mori knew this technique as well so him getting around it would be easier then him getting around Yami's precog. One because, he would have no idea about it since Yami would never mention it to his opponent and two because his method of prediction is not only mechanically different, but also better then Ilpyo's. Not just that, but Mori was also shown predicting Ilpyo during that fight with the very same technique, so it might not even be that.
 
In fact, it's actually really funny due to how both fights actually mirror one another pretty well with even the same general outcome. The teacher coming out on top after having taught the student his weaknesses.
 
Ah. That changes things pretty significantly, I would argue. Thank you for clarifying that.

See, this is why I have to ask about every single detail about a character I'm not familiar with, even though everyone else gets very annoyed at this. A thread can't be fair if details like those are getting omitted or explained poorly. I asked earlier about Ilpyo's analytical prediction, and the response I was given was very different. sigh

Okay. Knowing this makes me realize this is a much closer battle than I thought.
 
Mori doesn't have paralysis resistance listed in his profile for the key that we are using here. So Milly's point about Black Hole/ Black Moon still stands. If Yami activates this spell, Mori is sure to be paralyzed unless he can power nullify the spell or something of the sort. And if Mori does get paralyzed, then I find it hard to imagine that Mori would be able to dodge Dimensional Slash. And because now I'm being told Ki is better than had been stated, I think the likelihood of this happening is much higher than I thought earlier. This seems like a viable strategy now.
 
It would be less about which precog is superior and more behind the mechanics of a pre-cog. By the way, I just read the fight between Mori and Dean. In that battle, Mori doesn't actually beat the pre-cog. It's not even noted that he does, all that really seems to happen is Mori outskilling Dean purely due to his now weakened state. So the idea that he could replicate in his younger state doesn't seem to work out.

This is kind of the point. Mori is so skilled that he was able to completely dominate against someone who has precog. I'm not sure why he wouldn't be able to do that here. As Yami is dramatically less skilled when compared to Dean. Which is precisely the point. The skill gap is just that massive, if not more so since Dean is incredibly skilled himself. Whereas Yami seems to focus far less on actual martial ability in battle. (His hax seems to see him through, as does his ki sensing).

Additionally, I just reread the Ilpyo fight for clarification. It's true that it says that Ilpyo reads his attacks through contact. And yet, throughout the entire fight he is able to counteract what Mori does despite them not being physically touching before either of them launches an attack (so either we go based upon what it says or what's shown). Ilpyo's purpose in that fight was to essentially teach Mori, but he was still defeated. After pointing out the three weaknesses in his style, Mori first uses other styles to compensate, and then immediately transitions into correcting the weaknesses of his own style. This is all taking into account that Mori is already fairly injured going into the fight (he notes that his brain feels like it's shaking, and Ilpyo is able to take advantage of the fact that Mori's body is already strained). This is not the case here.

Additionally, Ilpyo was not "always looking for Re-Taw." He literally couldn't, as Mori was mixing his style. He only sought to show Mori the weaknesses of the style, to honor his promise to Mori's grandfather. But nowhere in the fight is it stated or even implied that he's only seeking to counter Re-Taekwondo. As he manages well against the other styles Mori uses as well.

Also, I'm not sure if we've addressed such. But Mori can amplify himself 8x with Bongchim Na Acupuncture. And speed blitz Yami/overwhelm him with skill in a moment. It's incredibly doubtful that Yami's precog is potent enough to keep up with someone 8x faster than him. In addition since many of Mori's moves affect the wind with their aftereffects, such that dodging the literal limb, if he could, may not be enough. And an 8x difference is enough to one shot.

As for Yami, and please correct me if I'm wrong, one of his better feats of limiting breaking was when the black bulls fought Vetta. Yet, outside of statements by Yami, there is little indication of how much stronger he got. As everything he did after he got stronger, was all hax. His strength could very have been him getting a new spell.

As for black hole/black moon paralysis, I thought that only worked on magic users? Is there a scan of it working on someone whom hasn't had their magic sucked into it? I'd appreciate any clarification.

Also, I think I might have a neat match for Yami. I don't get to use the character often, so hopefully it'll be a good one. I'll post it here in a sec.
 
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