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Bowser vs. Eggman, again (Grace?)

Since you didn't correct me I assume this was Baby Bowser, nothing implies Baby Bowser thinks and acts the same way as his adult self, heck, PiT directely contradicts that notion

Also, Eggman has 8 votes OP, not 7
 
Theuser789 said:
Since you didn't correct me I assume this was Baby Bowser, nothing implies Baby Bowser thinks and acts the same way as his adult self, heck, PiT directely contradicts that notion
Also, Eggman has 8 votes OP, not 7
Click to expand...
Somewhat incorrect, both act and interact with others the same way.

And for Mindhax, iirc, Mario could resist Bowser's mindhax (Which is Planetary times 15), Bowser resists Mindhax from a guy who could Mindhax Mario. So if I am correct, Bowser should resist Eggman's mindhax

Sealing "being done on fodder", is incorrect, as his sealing was also done to get rid of Peach
 
They literaly didn't, Baby Bowser acted completely diferent the adult Bowser, especialy how he chooses to fight, people need to realize "uh, it is thing because I say so" isn't a counter, even in their boss fight they use diferent attacks:https://youtu.be/Jxqmh_SBwA0

I literaly explained why the Super Mario 64 isn't planetary mindhax, because none of those worlds have the same population as Earth, repeating the same stuff doesn't make it right, so you aren't correct, he doesn't resist it

Yet he didn't use it against Mario, who doesn't resist sealing as show in every Luigi's massion game
 
Yeah, I'm not gonna respond to that massive wall.

We're basically arguing semantics. I believe Eggman's hax isn't gonna work because he can also summon Magikoopas who are basically Infinite but better and the fact the his best shit are all super self-destructive if you argue that he has all his machines.

Information Analysis seems too NLF-y imo and shouldn't be used in VS Debates much. Plus, if we wanna be like that, Magikoopas have clairvoyance as well via equipment.

And again, there seems to be way too many variables going on. But in a fight Bowser has the capability to one-shot, can make his own independent clones, has an army that can revive and heal him along with regen and healing himself, and he has afew durability-negating hax moves in character that can deal with most of them. Besides, like I argued in the Ganon thread, Bowser isn't stupid, and he's displayed tactics like depowering someone via sealing and BFR'ing their amping macguffins on multiple occasions, having done it to Peach and her Castle in 64 as well as Rosalina and her Comet Observatory as well as to Lubba with Starship Mario. Even then, back in the old days he forced Peach's hand via turning all of her people into bricks, stole the Kings' wands and gave them to the Koopalings and transmutated them, and sealed the Yoshi's in eggs.

This is without mentioning Magikoopas could make him intangible and then he cab one-shot via that or become invisblw and intangible at the same time plus the fact that Bowser could negate attacks via jumping on Mario or burning his items away in the PM games, making Egghead's physical arsenal from Chronicles moot (which Kamek can also do by the way).

We've already proven his range and the effectiveness of his hax that can work om Eggman's army. We've pointed out Eggman has a more exploitable weakness than Bowser here. His summons like Magikoopas have performed the same hax the Phantom Ruby has and Bowser has dealt with people who could literally create an army of clones (and clones that were literally one-shot by every Sonic character we've seen, so a good explanation is that the PR can only make exact clones stat-wise with a lot of charging time in advance because only Metal Sonic and Zavok could put up a fight) and a dark clone of himself with his exact DNA as well. Most of Eggman's hax is easily avoidable and/or exploitable like mind hax for one.

So again, either this is incon via a hax battle because it's literally anyone's guess due to the sheer amount of variables at play, or Bowser uses his durability-negating shit to beam right through Eggman's mech Super Sonic-style and one-shot him.

We have the hax debate which has too many variables as either side could use a certain amount of hax abilities they have to give them the upperhand, and we have the AP brawl where Bowser is the clear victor since hitting Eggman through any nech is possible.

So due to that, I see Bowser overall taking this. It's not one-sided, but I'd argue using in character tactics and abilities he's displayed before, he's more likely to use his wincons.

But eh.
 
Also lol at using PIS as a legitimate argument. Plus, if anything, King Boo might have better sealing hax than Bowser in that case.

And we alsl brought uo him turning the entire sky + stars into a storybook as well as Kamek's planetary range so why are we still on this point?
 
> I am not going to respond to it

> Responds to it

Have consistance

Except literaly all that was already countered, again, Infinite isn't the Phantom Ruby, the Phantom Ruby itself is low 2-C, so it's already better than Koopas, and none of his tech is self destructive

Your oppinion is wrong, knowing what your opponent does when your character has feats for that isn't a NLF, and claravoyence is completely diferent power

Bowser can't one-shoot, they have the same AP, also Eggman can litteraly do all that as well, and Eggman also isn't stupid, in fact he is way smarter than Bowser, also nice telling of feats but all that is kinda irrelevant since Eggman has done way more

Cool, Eggman's robots have NPI, and can become invisible as well, not like that counters any of the Ruby haxes, also that just seems like a weakness to Mario's equipment, since it can just be burned away, plus he would have to hit Eggman directely while he is inside the Time Eater and has probality manipulation

No you haven't, stating shit isn't a actual argument, you haven't for both of those, Magikoopas can't make virtual realities and illusions and are weaker than the Ruby. Clones getting weaker is headcanon because Chaos could fight Knuckles and Silver, and Shadow caused great trouble for the resistance as stated by Vector "he is tearing through our troops", nor it's actualy ever stated, yet the opposite is implied by Shadow. Bowser never ic has teleported out of the planet to dodge a attack, especialy when he will be in the midlee of a fight and under the Phantom Ruby effects

Which Eggman has ressurection threee times and probality manipulation to make that miss, and ilusion creation

Bowser doesn't have the brawl at all, Eggman has two low 2-C mechs with the same AP as Bowser, with one having a AP advantage, he can't shoot through Eggman while he is on the Time Eater or using the low 2-C Ruby, never mind one-shooting

And I disagree immensely
 
To the first comment, because that wasn't the point, the point is that adult Bowser doesn't fight like Baby Bowser

Yes, don't use PIS as a buzzword because it goes against your narrative, and no, unless Mario actualy resisted sealing we can't just assume a hax is better without feats to fit your headcanon

I literaly countered those two points in my post and explained them
 
Soupywolf5 said:
Bowser has an IQ of 9800 tho
Click to expand...
I know this is a joke, but obvious hyperbole and we don't use only IQ numbers to determine inteligence by themselfs as said in the inteligence page
 
Disagreeing =/= your opinion is right you know. I can also say I disagree, and in fact, I do.

Yes, but like half of those mechs won't matter that have those abilities because they're fodder and the ones who don't are the mechs that mattwr her conveniently unless y'all argue in some CRT for all of his mechs to have those abilities. I also brought it up because Egghead himself doesn't have the ability to see invisible things to my knowledge or have any ability to counter a direct intangible assault, so unless you can bring up something that isn't fodder being able to do that, then this is a wincon for Bowser. Eggman is clinically smarter (though Bowser has that 5000 IQ quote or sonething), but again, his hubris is his downfall and he has more exploitable weaknesses, plus Bowser has tech capable of creating or destroying galaxies and the entire universe itself so if we go by technological achievements it's kinda debatable. Also love how you ignored how the PR can just be BFR'd itself or sealed away and there's nothing Eggman can do about it AND that I've said it's in character multiple times. You got on me for "not knowing" for the Sonic side so how about I tell you to "just play the game lol" and see why it's in character for Bowser to just seal or BFR the PR away due to games like 64, Galaxy 1 and 2, SMW, SM3, and SM1.

And Bowser can enhance his stats greatly via his supports and depower Eggman's in multiple ways like straight stat debuffs, shrinking and growing himself giant, and has durability negation via fireballs. Also already stated how the PR can be avoided. You can't argue he has Phantom King and Infinite and then say "Oh no he can just have the PR in general". But even if you did, HE never used it for hax beyond warping Sonic and Co. to other levels in Mania and in Forces the entire clone army was already sustained by Infinite before Eggman reprimanded him.

Plus, if the PR can create exact clones, let me use one of your arguments against Bowser here, "Why didn't Infinite or Eggman just create clones of Sonic then?". Not that it matters since the clones of characters it can create get one-shot and that Bowser can already duplicate, has faced an army of clones before, and can fight an exact copy of him that's ENHANCED via a dark cosmic force that kept him immortal. The PR is practically irrelevant here, especially since it's illusions have at best involved a Sun that would've wiped the Resistance out and it doesn't directly mind control anyone and more so just casues confusion, despite the fact that people can still think and function fine within it. Eggman would have to create Hell itself before Bowser even bats an eye at any illusion it cooks up.

Said resurrection gets burned or negated by Bowser though. "It means Mario's arsenal is weak" isn't an argument because it's a hax ability by this site's standards and Eggman has no resistances to his physical arsenal being negated through such means as well as through Magikoopa magicks.

And lol you also claim "But that's PIS" for your own arguments so don't act innocent. I'm only trying to prove a point when I say that
 
Oppinions can be more correct when they are backed by facts, which I am doing

So? I literaly never argued otherwise, plus his more relevant machines do, also I am pretty sure Eggman can use his glasses to sense energy, which was show before, so he can, plus this doesn't do nothing against the Phantom Ruby hax. IQ quotes mean nothing even though that quote is obviously incorrect because it was obvious gloating from Bowser, and again, he is only that against Sonic because he wants to show he is superior, Bowser himself has been tricked multiple times and lost because of only himself, stop making me repeat myself, also he has no "weakness" to exploit, you keep saying that without proof, also Bowser's machines only did that because of mystical items that made those machines capable of that, and Eggman has made 4-A machines from no source and 2-C mechs, so better than Bowser. I didn't ignore those points because I already countered then and then you even conceded on the BFR, then brought no more counters to my other argument. I literaly played all those games and Bowser never used that hax on any main character actualy fighting him, unlike you obviously

Because Eggman already had clones of Shadow and Metal, Sonic would be redudant and add abosolute nothing. Bowser only beat Dark Bowser because of Mario and Luigi and has he beaten tens of thousands of clones? Not that it matters because perception manipulation ***** Bowser up completely. The OG Phantom Ruby is literaly low 2-C, make a CRT if you disagree, and those were the prototypes, also completely wrong, the Phantom Ruby illusions are real to who is affected, and as seen in episode Shadow he can create virtual realities as well

Except that isn't hax because burning things up isn't a hax ability and Bowser would have to hit in directely outside the Time Eater, and probality manipulation and ressurection comes from Chaos

Weeb is the one who first used PIS to counter me, and even then I used it as arguments unlike you who only said "lol"
 
>Mario

ah yes, he kidnaps princess peach and Bowser has to go save the Princess from his evil hands
 
NotAMarioFan(lol) said:
U do realize bowser has passive perception manipulation via zone speed
Click to expand...
Zone speed is not passive and time slow trumps that any day, and already talked about the wish granting stuff on the wall, people need to stop repeating themselfs without actualy arguing any counter arguments
 
The real cal howard said:
Mario fra

Suck it Shake I didn't even need to contribute to win this time ovo
Click to expand...
All this thread shows is how flawed the FRA system is because nothing changed from the other thread, and Eggman was the one who got the upgrade
 
Don't test with me, Cal. The last thing we need is a green-named fanboy with a history of spite and a chip on his shoulder against blue anthros taking potshots at me :)
 
Lol I never argued he'd use them on the main character, just that he HAS depowered people via sealing or BFR'ing their macguffins or power source away in those games. He couldn't do it to Mario because Mario was absorbing the Power Stars and they were amping him from within. Time Eater doesn't have anything to counter intangibility, the PR being Low 2-C isn't even relevant because, again, it can be BFR'd or sealed away. He beat Dark Bowser because they severed his connection to the Dark Star so that he could finally kill him. They were on par with each other beforehand and Bowser wasn't even tired. PR can only clone people Eggman has extensive data on it seems, and I doubt he'd be ablr to create an army of Bowser clones mid-battle, especially when previously you argued Bowser would have trouble dealing with all of these things, but how is Eggman alone gonna be able to perform all these things you're saying he can do alone? Tine Eater passively makes his army irrelevant if he uses it's full power and Bowser can already hax and destroy his other mechs and whole army with ease being Low 2-C and canonically empowering Minions via Power Stars or making them into clones of him which all are 4-A as well. FEB is too stationary and doesn't count, and Eggman only has a couple 4-A mechs generously if we don't give them Tier 2 scaling as well. His other mechs piloted by Robo's get haxxed as explained earlier in the thread (or one-shot), and how exactly is Eggman gonna use the PR at full power if he's inside the Time Eater at all times? He's no Doctor Doon or Wily and can't pull a "surprise! It's a fake" gag as only Metal did so. Plus, if Eggman dies once, Time Eater becomes dormant. If he haxes all Robos within range and you argue a Robo is co-piloting, then Time Eater becomes dormant again. Hell, what stops Eggman himself from being mind controlled?

Except it is hax because it's hax negation that bypasses Mario's defences in order to negate his abilities. And again, Magikoopas can also do this with magic. They can also make goals disappear.

I don't care how real the illusions are, the only damn thing the illusions did in the game they hail from was cause chaos by making people "imagine" things that weren't there and allow Infinite to pseudo-reality warp and do whatever he wanted to solo the fodder troops. However, again, everyone is perfectly capable of thinking and acting on their own when under it's effects.

And no, saying "I countered them" when there's clearly still an argument amd debate means you haven't effectively done so. Sensing energy =/= knowing exactly where Bowser is and you can't extrapolate that ability further than that. Bowser has been tricked, but he's also done the tricking and the point is that in character the strategies he performed in those games are good counters to what Eggman has.

Chaos? So he has a creature that doesn't even serve him under his wing now? A creature that also gets haxxed or one-shot by Bowser like the rest of Eggman's lackeys?

Eggman is entirely too dependent on his militia here. If for some reason you can explain how Eggman can use his hax to win when he's stuck in the Time Eater and the rest of his army is getting bombarded or controlled/incapacitated via hax and he can't in any way counter a direct intangible and invisible assault from Bowser within the Time Eater mech or resist being petrified and sealed or transmutated or mind haxed when, again, his ENTIRE fleet is under Bowser's control, incapacitated, or outright destroyed so they can't help and this wpuld include maling the mechs his bots pilot dormant. If you can explain exactly how Eggman can use his hax despite all pf that going on as well as the fact it's too much multitasking for just himself (and no, Robos somehow using the PR or activating his hax machines from up in space is so NOT in character it"s ridiculous plus they are, again, susceptible to hax), then and only then will I even consider Eggman taking a full-on W.
 
Also, Cal, I actually would greatly appreciate your input because this is getting tiring.

User is complaining about rehashed arguments but he's doing the exact same thing lol and it's annoying so pls step in I beg you
 
Foxthefox1000 said:
Also, Cal, I actually would greatly appreciate your input because this is getting tiring.
User is complaining about rehashed arguments but he's doing the exact same thing lol and it's annoying so pls step in I beg you
Click to expand...
I beg you to drop that attitude.Complaining and starting beef is gonna make things FAR worse.I think you should know that.
 
Because you are doing the same, so I need to replay to your awfuls, sometimes objectively wrong, and biased arguments, and staff means not much in versus threads, I am not going to conced because Cal said so, especialy not now that grace eneded
 
"Bypassing resistance says yes"

>You're aware that Bowser resists people who already resist time stop, no? I literally already said this.

"Retry clock is literaly a gameplay item, it's only mentioned once in the entire story, and I wasn't even talking about using it in a menu because you even can't use it that way in the game itself, it does nothing, but I was talking about when you get knocked out,the game will give the opition of using it or not, so it's not passive, and you are using PIS as a buzzword, it's more like it doesn't work the way you think it does because of the literal many contradictions, both in story and gameplay"

>This is actually a really awful argument. Why the **** would an item need to be brought in the story be relevant and be a requirement now? It is PIS, because whenever you're knocked out during a fight, the Retry Clock makes you come back. Not to mention you ignore Life Shrooms and Earlier Times.

"Eggman resists sleep manipulation himself, and he also has other AoE, like his mindhax, illusion, life-force absortion etc"

>How good is his resistance?

"You completely ignored my argument that inhaling them is the worst move he could possible do because they could just kill him from the inside, since this even happened that way in BIS with Bowser losing abilities because he inhaled wrong stuff, and there's no Mario and Luigi to save him"

>You completely ignored that I specific said Bowser can inhale Eggman's EQUIPMANT. If the machines that are alive get sucked, he can always just spit it out.

"From what you and the others are saying he only uses this stuff against random fodder he doesn't care about, I want to see if he did this stuff against actual threats before"

>Why would him doing it against fodder be relevant? That's just nitpicky. That is unrelated. But even so, his 4-A range transmutation was done against the Yoshi's, who have been threats to him. Since they were affected, it took the newborns who haven't been affected. Literally the plot of the game.

"Same as above. Catch cards can only work on one foe per time, and the stronger the enemy is the higher chance of failing, and inb4 gameplay mechanic this is even said in the description, it hardly works against bosses, and there's Eggman's own probality manipulation as well making it even less of it to work"

>And in this case, Catch Cards can seal Eggman since he has the biggest baddie. Why are you now using game mechanics as arguments, this is reaching. Description is irrelevant, that doesn't now just make it chance based. Several other games such as RPGS tell you that this move is chance based in the description, when that's only there to make it more fair. Persona's moves say they have a "high" chance to work. SPM was based off an RPG and has the same elements as TTYD. I outright said probability manipulation is useless it's an automatic lock on attack. If it were something that he had to go and hit him, sure. But not in this case.

I have yet to see Eggman bypass 4-A range transmutation. Which is stated to happen at the blink of an eye. Catch Cards that lock on and keep you in place. Bowser literally wishing to end the fight by raising his hand up.
 
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