Boros Lifting Strength Downgrade

[ZillertheBucko]

Do you not know the difference between a hax ability without any AP or LS and a combat ability that is very much LS and AP related?
That’s like saying we shouldn’t scale tank top master to post superfight genos because “tanktop master doesn’t have fire resistance”
Silly as hell

 

[Damage3245]

I agree with Boros having Unknown Lifting Strength.

 

[ZillertheBucko]

I agree with Boros having Unknown Lifting Strength.

Are you saying that Boros is weaker than tanktop master?

 

[Adem_Warlock69]

We never saw Boros lift tho

 

[Aachintya31]

Do you not know the difference between a hax ability without any AP or LS and a combat ability that is very much LS and AP related?
That’s like saying we shouldn’t scale tank top master to post superfight genos because “tanktop master doesn’t have fire resistance”

Sure, Equate the AP. Not the hax. Telekinesis is a hax.

 

[ZillertheBucko]

Me when pre redraw Boros

 

[Adem_Warlock69]

Imagine we give Boros, Phoenix Man and Orochi Pre-Redraw Keys, that would be neat

 

[ZillertheBucko]

Sure, Equate the AP. Not the hax. Telekinesis is a hax.

Again, you don’t need fire resistance to be able to scale above the AP of a fireball, applying comparable logic to psychic LS is absolutely ridiculous
being able to lift things is LS regardless of if it is a hax or not.

 

[ZillertheBucko]

Telekinesis is just a means to an end
It’s still LS at the end of the day, and is quite literally the only form of attacking that tatsumaki uses
To say that strength doesn’t apply to psychic powers is basically just saying we will never be able to scale anything that isn’t via a punch or kick ever again

 

[Adem_Warlock69]

Technically, the databooks never said that Boros would win against Tatsumaki, just that he's the "Strongest"

 

[ZillertheBucko]

Technically, the databooks never said that Boros would win against Tatsumaki, just that he's the "Strongest"

Lifting strength is also strength
and they made sure go state it 3 times to make it nice and clear who’s stronger

this argument would apply for speed, but….Boros already blitzes

 

[Damage3245]

Are you saying that Boros is weaker than tanktop master?

Since when the hell does "Unknown" = weaker?

 

[ZillertheBucko]

Since when the hell does "Unknown" = weaker?

Let me rephrase then
I thought it was pretty clear that the bottom line here is that Boros will still at least be class G regardless, since he would very obviously scale above the physical strength of darkshine
Which is why I am quite perplexed by you implying that, somehow, it wouldn’t be correct to scale Boros (who’s stated 3 times to be stronger) above tanktop master’s feat. Maybe you could explain why?

 

[Adem_Warlock69]

Lifting strength is also strength

Not really, Atomic Samurai would have Class G LS if that was the case,
Plus, Evil Natural Ocean's weight is like leagues beyond Tatsumaki's LS, doesn't mean lad is stronger

 

[ZillertheBucko]

Not really, Atomic Samurai would have Class G LS if that was the case,
Plus, Evil Natural Ocean's weight is like leagues beyond Tatsumaki's LS, doesn't mean lad is stronger

Well he uses a sword, and is clearly shown to be inferior physically than he is to his sword
Also evil water doesn’t even have an Ls due to the fact that water lifting itself isn’t a feat.
Both of these are exceptions that obviously don’t apply to Boros in any way.

 

[FantaRin_The_First]

Lifting strength is also strength
and they made sure go state it 3 times to make it nice and clear who’s stronger

Telekinesis is still hax, however. Even if it does lift stuff, it is still an entirely different method of lifting than... well... actually lifting something with your body... since Tats/ Geryu are moving, or well pinning, something with their mind(s).

And, well...

We never saw Boros lift tho

Adem also brings up a good point. Did Boros lift up anything in his fight? Or has grappled, held, and/or fought against and overpowered something with a specified weight or someone with a LS rating? If not, well... Unknown, possibly far higher LS is the way to go, methinks. Like... Isn't being called "The Strongest" only something that can work with AP and Dura and not LS since it is entirely different thing from those things.

 

[ZillertheBucko]

Telekinesis is still hax, however. Even if it does lift stuff, it is still an entirely different method of lifting than... well... actually lifting something with your body... since Tats/ Geryu are moving, or well pinning, something with their mind(s).

The method doesn’t matter, I shouldn’t have to repeat myself but once again
If someone is stronger than genos, that doesn’t mean they need to have fire resistance to scale above his beams. The method here does not matter whatsoever, especially considering tatsumaki is shown to be able to literally self amp her physicals using psychic power and become class P regardless.

Adem also brings up a good point. Did Boros lift up anything in his fight? Or has grappled, held, and/or fought against and overpowered something with a specified weight or someone with a LS rating? If not, well... Unknown, possibly far higher LS is the way to go, methinks. Like... Isn't being called "The Strongest" only something that can work with AP and Dura and not LS since it is entirely different thing from those things.

Fiction basically never makes a distinction from LS and AP when it comes to “strong”
That’s why 90% of characters on the wiki get Ls scaling just from being able to trade blows with people. This is not anything new


regardless, Boros still witnessed saitama catching geryu’s rocks casually, so this crt wouldn’t even change anything in the worst case scenario

 

[Damage3245]

Let me rephrase then
I thought it was pretty clear that the bottom line here is that Boros will still at least be class G regardless, since he would very obviously scale above the physical strength of darkshine
Which is why I am quite perplexed by you implying that, somehow, it wouldn’t be correct to scale Boros (who’s stated 3 times to be stronger) above tanktop master’s feat. Maybe you could explain why?

Which statements are you referring to specifically?

 

[FantaRin_The_First]

Fiction basically never makes a distinction from LS and AP when it comes to “strong”
That’s why 90% of characters on the wiki get Ls scaling just from being able to trade blows with people. This is not anything new


regardless, Boros still witnessed saitama catching geryu’s rocks casually, so this crt wouldn’t even change anything in the worst case scenario

No, that's wrong. Or rather you are oversimplifying it; of course, fiction doesn't make a distinction, most authors/writers/creators don't even think to consider any VS implications or don't think about it too deeply, this website (among many others) does however.

Additionally, doesn't LS scaling only works if someone actually manages to stop one's attack in its tracks, parry their attack and redirects it somewhere else, or even just push back their attack with their physical strength; which. from my memory isn't something Boros showed.

And yes, he did... So what? Did Boros stop a Saitama punch? Did he outlift him? Like isn't that fact useless here?

The method doesn’t matter, I shouldn’t have to repeat myself but once again
If someone is stronger than genos, that doesn’t mean they need to have fire resistance to scale above his beams. The method here does not matter whatsoever, especially considering tatsumaki is shown to be able to literally self amp her physicals using psychic power and become class P regardless.

Eh. Im dumb, but again, destroying something is entirely different from lifting something. And i'm pretty sure Genos beams aren't being used to scale to anyone (like doesn't Post-Superfight Genos scales to Tanktop Master due to Garous comment and not the other way around); if my memory serves me right, 7C scaling is from Suiryu and Three Crows and H7C comes from Jetkos's beams and Atomic slicing them and it exploding. Also, wouldn't that Tats fact not matter since again... Boros never faced off against Tats and her telekinesis.

 

[Kachon123]

Can't we just scale Boros above everyone who doesn't have TK, like Darkshine and people like that?

 

[FantaRin_The_First]

Can't we just scale Boros above everyone who doesn't have TK, like Darkshine and people like that?

Eh, im against that due to the simple fact that being the strongest doesn't mean you can lift the most weights.

 

[Kachon123]

Eh, im against that due to the simple fact that being the strongest doesn't mean you can lift the most weights.

It does actually.

 

[FantaRin_The_First]

Eh. I'm a bit skeptic about that, but... im a dummy, so there is likely a good argument for that, so hit me with it.

 

[Kachon123]

Eh. I'm a bit skeptic about that, but... im a dummy, so there is likely a good argument for that, so hit me with it.

Lifting is a part of strength, as is striking.

When you see someone squat or deadlift a big amount, calling them strong would appropriate.

It's not mutually exclusive.

 

[Kachon123]

There's also Boros seeing Saitama catch Geryu's rocks and pitch them with greater force, but was still surprised that he could fight evenly with his Released state.

 

[ZillertheBucko]

yes exactly
Worst case scenario, this crt changes nothing
I don’t see why not add a class P for metal bat (who very much is a physical fighter)

 

[FantaRin_The_First]

Lifting is a part of strength, as is striking.

When you see someone squat or deadlift a big amount, calling them strong would appropriate.

It's not mutually exclusive.

There's also Boros seeing Saitama catch Geryu's rocks and pitch them with greater force, but was still surprised that he could fight evenly with his Released state.

Eh. Is that it?

Like does this section in vbw LS covers this-

While Striking Strength measures the energy of a character's physical attacks, Lifting Strength measures the amount of mass they can lift, which is determined by the amount of force a character can produce. This means that they measure two different physical quantities. Furthermore it can't be assumed that a character that can physically produce the amount of energy used in lifting an object by a certain height can also lift it, if it didn't demonstrate the ability to produce that level of Lifting Strength. It is a common feature within fiction to feature characters capable of vastly greater physical striking strength energy outputs than what would be required to lift weights that they are repeatedly shown to struggle with.

Hence Lifting Strength and Striking Strength are in general not comparable and should be evaluated separately.

And pretty much says lifting is in fact mutually exclusive to AP and SS? And Boros doesn't even have a good LS scaling chain since barring Geryu TK, all of them have unknown LS?

yes exactly
Worst case scenario, this crt changes nothing
I don’t see why not add a class P for metal bat (who very much is a physical fighter)

Also, isn't MB extremely wacky scaling wise due to fighting spirit and the fact that Class P feat isn't something he can do normally due to him needing to work with Garou to even have that level of strength in the first place? ... and is essentailly the same problem with the guidebook and Orochi in that feat literally did not exist until much much later and Boros cannot reasonably scale to a feat that happened long after his death.

 

[ZillertheBucko]

Also, isn't MB extremely wacky scaling wise due to fighting spirit and the fact that Class P feat isn't something he can do normally due to him needing to work with Garou to even have that level of strength in the first place? ... and is essentailly the same problem with the guidebook and Orochi in that feat literally did not exist until much much later and Boros cannot reasonably scale to a feat that happened long after his death.

He did that without resonance

 

[FantaRin_The_First]

Welp, im beat. I leave it somebody smarter than me to pick up the argument.

 

[Damage3245]

He did that without resonance

Class P is clearly not Metal Bat's normal level of strength. It's also a feat that takes place way later than Boros' appearance in the manga. There would be no reason for Boros to scale to it.

 

[ZillertheBucko]

Class P is clearly not Metal Bat's normal level of strength. It's also a feat that takes place way later than Boros' appearance in the manga. There would be no reason for Boros to scale to it.

Well it’s a level of strength that he canonically was capable of having regardless of that
But if we’re gonna be picky about the fighting spirit stuff, then sure, maybe he wasn’t class P at the time of the statement

 

[Marvel_Champion_07]

Eh. Is that it?

Like does this section in vbw LS covers this-
And pretty much says lifting is in fact mutually exclusive to AP and SS? And Boros doesn't even have a good LS scaling chain since barring Geryu TK, all of them have unknown LS?

Strength itself isn't mutually exclusive to striking or lifting

 

[ZillertheBucko]

Eh. Is that it?

Like does this section in vbw LS covers this-

And pretty much says lifting is in fact mutually exclusive to AP and SS? And Boros doesn't even have a good LS scaling chain since barring Geryu TK, all of them have unknown LS?

Well it didn’t say “Boros can hit harder than anyone in the universe” or “Boros can lift more than anyone in the universe”
It simply says he’s the strongest, which would include tatsumaki, and especially his pet esper that’s very clearly inferior to him

 

[Nierre]

I can agree with his LS scaling to at least Darkshine.

Disagree on the confidence scaling for him scaling above Gery. Confidence scaling is meh, but most importantly, I don't think Boros would've backed down regardless of how strong Saitama is.

 

[Kachon123]

Disagree on the confidence scaling for him scaling above Gery. Confidence scaling is meh, but most importantly, I don't think Boros would've backed down regardless of how strong Saitama is.

It's not really confidence scaling, as even despite him seeing Saitama have greater LS than Orochi, he was shocked that Saitama could match him.

 

[ZillertheBucko]

I can agree with his LS scaling to at least Darkshine.

Disagree on the confidence scaling for him scaling above Gery. Confidence scaling is meh, but most importantly, I don't think Boros would've backed down regardless of how strong Saitama is.

Confidence scaling is valid and has been accepted for ages now.

 

[Nierre]

It's not really confidence scaling, as even despite him seeing Saitama have greater LS than Orochi, he was shocked that Saitama could match him.

Then count me as neutral.

Confidence scaling is valid and has been accepted for ages now.

I don't care if it's valid or accepted. The fact that this CRT is here means that it's coming into question right now.

 

[ZillertheBucko]

I don't care if it's valid

usually, you don’t want to say sentences like this on a debating site.

 

[Nierre]

Anyways, I can agree with Darkshine scaling, that much makes sense to me.

 

[Damage3245]

usually, you don’t want to say sentences like this on a debating site.

Something being valid in the past doesn't mean people have to care about it in the present. Revisions happen all the time to remove things that were once seen as valid and may no longer be the case.