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Blue And White Verse | Adding Cthulhu Universe Profiles | Civilization Levels

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ActuallySpaceMan42 said:
Pain & Ovy agreed with Low 1-C to 1-C Great Old Ones, 1-A+ Great Old Ones, 1-A Outer Gods & High 1-A Outer Gods.

Elizhaa agreed with Transduality Type 3, and everything seemed good to them.
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Okay. That is probably fine then, but let's wait a while for further confirmations anyway.
 
Antvasima said:
@Ultima_Reality @DontTalkDT @Elizhaa @Qawsedf234 @PrinceofPein @Everything12 @Planck69 @Ovy7 @TheUnshakableOne

Are any of you willing to help out here please?

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Thank you for the tag!

I do not have knowledge on the verse, and i feel as if some of these are dependent on context that you have to know from the series itself to understand

i was reading over the replies here particularly @ActuallySpaceMan42 and @PrinceofPein whom would have asked the same questions i would ask, and the same concerns i had.

I have to agree with what @PrinceofPein he came to the same conclusions i would with the scans and stuff presented.

edit: as for transdaulity it does appear to be TD type 3
 
Antvasima said:
Okay. That is probably fine then, but let's wait a while for further confirmations anyway.
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Is this fine now, or should we wait a bit more? TheUnshakableOne has added his confirmation, and it doesn't seem any other staff is going to pop in, either due to lack of knowledge or disinterest in general.
 
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I feel like there is absolutely no point in dragging this thing up so much.
Everyone here already agreed with the thread and ultima and don't talk are clearly not interested.
 
It seems most of the knowledgeable members who have been summoned agree with this thread. So what do we need here? Staff input or something else?
 
What was your previous conclusion?
 
Okay. What were their conclusions more specifically?
 
Antvasima said:
Okay. What were their conclusions more specifically?
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Pain, Ovy & Unspeakable all agreed with Low 1-C to 1-C Great Old Ones, 1-A+ Great Old Ones, 1-A Outer Gods & High 1-A Outer Gods.

Elizhaa & Unspeakable agreed with Transduality Type 3, and everything else seemed good to Elizhaa.
 
Okay. That is good then, but the problem is that tier 0 revisions preferably need thumbs up from a few knowledgeable staff members.
 
Antvasima said:
Okay. That is good then, but the problem is that tier 0 revisions preferably need thumbs up from a few knowledgeable staff members.
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I have no issues waiting in regard to the Tier 0 stuff (I contacted a bunch of staff on their walls not too long ago).
 
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As usual, tier 1 stuff manages to be absolutely headache inducing.

However, I think this all works. The justification for Transduality Type 3 seems fairly straight-forward (at least, as "straight-forward" as Transduality can be), so I have no issues with that being applied. The main talking point here is evidently the cosmology.

I think the main ratings are well-justified, though I have some contentions. Eihort and Tsathoggua existing in the layer of reality associated with "abnormal/deformed laws", as well as the context suggesting this layer is superior to/on top of the layer of "normal laws" (i.e.: the standard universe), should put these figures at Low 1-C. I'm less certain about Cthulhu and Glaaki, as it sounds like the layer of "inexplicable/baffling laws" could simply be higher into Low 1-C (i.e.: if the layer of "normal laws" is a 4 dimensional construct, and the layer of "abnormal laws" is superior via being a 5 dimensional construct, the layer of "inexplicable laws" being a 6th dimensional construct would only make it higher into Low 1-C, not 1-C). However, I may have misunderstood something about the intentions of the OP, and would like clarification on this point.

I think the justifications for Yog-Sothoth, Nyarlathotep, and Shub-Niggurath would constitute 1-A. To my understanding, the justification here is suggesting that the "layers of reality" constitute a model of dimensions and superiority, and that these beings are 1-A via not simply being a "layer above" this model, but superior to the very model itself. I believe this constitutes 1-A, but I would like someone well-versed in 1-A standards to verify this.

If the prior point about 1-A is correct, the justification for Azathoth being High 1-A should also reasonably stand via being inaccessible to any of the prior mentioned beings.

Where my biggest contentions remain is with the "likely" rating. Even after reading all of the linked scans and the justification blog, I don't understand what you mean by a "1-A+ number of timelines". There is a strong point put down about the incomprehensible number of timelines this verse possesses, and how these timelines are non-mainstream, and how timelines split and are based on infinite variables, but nothing actually explains what "1-A+ number of timelines" means. All I can see are justifications that would suggest an infinite number of timelines, which would be 2-A. As always, I'm willing to acknowledge I may have misunderstood something, but I don't concede on this point - the terminology used to justify the "likely" rating doesn't make sense within the scans and explanations given.

To summarise:

  • Transduality Type 3 is fine.
  • Low-1-C for Eihort and Tsathoggua is fine.
  • 1-C for Cthulhu and Glaaki seems erroneous; the justification doesn't seem to warrant more than Low 1-C.
  • 1-A for Yog-Sothoth, Nyarlathotep, and Shub-Niggurath seems fine, but I'd like input from more members.
  • Assuming the prior point is true, High 1-A for Azathoth is fine.
  • Likely 1-A for various characters seems erroneous.
 
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Appreciate you taking the time to help out.
DarkGrath said:
I think the main ratings are well-justified, though I have some contentions. Eihort and Tsathoggua existing in the layer of reality associated with "abnormal/deformed laws", as well as the context suggesting this layer is superior to/on top of the layer of "normal laws" (i.e.: the standard universe), should put these figures at Low 1-C. I'm less certain about Cthulhu and Glaaki, as it sounds like the layer of "inexplicable/baffling laws" could simply be higher into Low 1-C (i.e.: if the layer of "normal laws" is a 4 dimensional construct, and the layer of "abnormal laws" is superior via being a 5 dimensional construct, the layer of "inexplicable laws" being a 6th dimensional construct would only make it higher into Low 1-C, not 1-C). However, I may have misunderstood something about the intentions of the OP, and would like clarification on this point.
Click to expand...
While there are 3 Laws that superimpose one another, they form 4 levels. That's why I keep saying the word "Levels" or "Higher Level" when explaining the AP for the Great Old Ones instead of saying "deformed laws" or "inexplicable laws".
DarkGrath said:
Where my biggest contentions remain is with the "likely" rating. Even after reading all of the linked scans and the justification blog, I don't understand what you mean by a "1-A+ number of timelines". There is a strong point put down about the incomprehensible number of timelines this verse possesses, and how these timelines are non-mainstream, and how timelines split and are based on infinite variables, but nothing actually explains what "1-A+ number of timelines" means. All I can see are justifications that would suggest an infinite number of timelines, which would be 2-A. As always, I'm willing to acknowledge I may have misunderstood something, but I don't concede on this point - the terminology used to justify the "likely" rating doesn't make sense within the scans and explanations given.
Click to expand...
No problem, me and pain discussed it a page ago so I have an explanation prepared here;
So put simply this is how Timelines work according to the Vere;

N = Infinite Possibilities, each Possibility = 1 New Timeline
1 Variable/Action = N
2 Variables/Actions = When two variables exist they superimpose each other, and become N^N, so Infinite Possibilities to the power Infinite Possibilities.
Infinite Variables = (N^N^N---> Infinitely)
Infinite Variables Superimposing = (N^N^N---> Infinitely)^(N^N^N---> Infinitely) and then all those Timelines created through this method do the same constantly becoming bigger (N^N^N---> Infinitely)^(N^N^N---> Infinitely)^(N^N^N---> Infinitely)---> Infinitely, and so on and so forth.



This is what Low 1-C equals in our Tiering System;
In terms of "dimensional" scale, this can be equated to 5 and 6-dimensional real coordinate spaces (R ^ 5 to R ^ 6)
Click to expand...
Aleph-1 (An uncountably infinite number, assumed to be the cardinality of the real numbers themselves)
Click to expand...
R is Real Numbers, Uncountable Infinity, and Aleph-1, so an Aleph-1 of Universes is Low 1-C, and 2 Variables are equivalent to N^N which equals R (Infinity ^ Infinity = Uncountable Infinity or Aleph-1).
Characters or objects that can affect structures with a number of dimensions equal to the cardinal aleph-2, which in practical terms also equals a level that completely exceeds Low 1-A structures to the same degree that they exceed High 1-B and below.
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So this goes from Aleph-1 Timelines to Aleph-2, and then Aleph-3, as each Aleph can be reached the same way Low 1-A is reached from High 1-B. So once there are a High 1-B amount of Timelines, it's then High 1-B^High 1-B, then Low 1-A^Low 1-A ---> on until you hit 1-A+ and the Uncountably 1-A+.

Of course, this never hits High 1-A since HIgh 1-A is Inaccessible to this, just like the Outer Gods are. The only reason it's a likely rating is that they don't directly mention it's power setting like before, but they are described similarly and was likely the same in that regard.
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Ovy7 confirmed with some others that the math checks out, it's just the verse follows some different logic mathematically when it comes to superimposing.
Ovy7 said:
So, I needed to ask some people who know more about set theory than me, but it seems that the math checks out, however, the logic behind it doesn't as superimposing multiple variables when creating timeline possibilities will actually be N*N instead of N^N, so all those superimposed timelines and stuff would only be Aleph 1 (Low 1-A in our tiering system).

But the verses threats it like N^N and not N*N, soooooo I dunno
Click to expand...
 
Thank you for the detailed explanation.

I am admittedly still somewhat confused on the mechanics regarding the layers of reality - if what distinguishes these layers is the "laws", and there are 3 sets of laws, how are there 4 layers of reality? Looking at the provided scans, it appears there is some basis to suggest that this exists within the setting, but there's no clear explanation for this point + certain scans seemingly contradicting it (such as referring to the layers of reality along the lines of "the three of them"). This issue is a bit too obtuse to gloss over.

However, you've explained the "likely" tiering quite cleanly, so I redact my previous disagreement there. 1-A standards are weird as always, so I'd still like some more knowledgeable people to examine this point, but I believe this does fit.
 
DarkGrath said:
Thank you for the detailed explanation.

I am admittedly still somewhat confused on the mechanics regarding the layers of reality - if what distinguishes these layers is the "laws", and there are 3 sets of laws, how are there 4 layers of reality? Looking at the provided scans, it appears there is some basis to suggest that this exists within the setting, but there's no clear explanation for this point + certain scans seemingly contradicting it (such as referring to the layers of reality along the lines of "the three of them"). This issue is a bit too obtuse to gloss over.
Click to expand...
I'll try to break it down;
So, the laws form the levels, and the levels are what grant superiority and what not.
 
ActuallySpaceMan42 said:
Click to expand...
Ahah, thank you. That explains what I was missing.

So, if I understand correctly, the layer/s of reality that Eihort and Tsathoggua inhabit would constitute a 5th/6th dimensional construct within this system by site standards, while the layer/s that Cthulhu and Glaaki inhabit would constitute a 7th/8th dimensional construct? If so, then 1-C for Cthulhu and Glaaki should be fine.
 
DarkGrath said:
So, if I understand correctly, the layer/s of reality that Eihort and Tsathoggua inhabit would constitute a 5th/6th dimensional construct within this system by site standards, while the layer/s that Cthulhu and Glaaki inhabit would constitute a 7th/8th dimensional construct? If so, then 1-C for Cthulhu and Glaaki should be fine.
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Yes, sorry that was so confusing.
 
ActuallySpaceMan42 said:
Yes, sorry that was so confusing.
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All good! "Confusing" is standard for tier 1 threads. I appreciate the explanations!

I believe I have no more contentions. While my point about wanting some more members familiar with tier 1 standards to contribute holds (Ultima stands out as a possibility here), I don't have any problems with accepting everything suggested in the OP.
 
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