Bleach topic

[Illuminati478]

But what you are basically saying that the movie is canon, but that is only relevant to the plot itself not to the universe? How does that work? For instance, we are given a very clear comparison between the size of the living world, the dangai, and soul society, which is also a part of an important scene in the movie IIRC, but we should ignore it because...what? I am not angry, i just can't understand why if the movie is considered canon, why cant we use details about the universe from it for calcs?

 

[Rib78]

I actually changed my mind half way through that last post and didn't go back and change the first half, I do now agree that the movie should be viewed as canon, just not on the same level as the manga, we can totally use the size comparisons shown in the movie and such, but anything that contradicts the manga should be viewed as would something from a databook that contradicts the manga. I don't think this would prevent the upgrades to speed or to Yamamoto, etc. but we should be clear now about where the movie stands.

 

[Kavpeny]

Hmm...the way I see it, Ichigo's statement definitely cements the existence of the location Valley of Screams. The reference to the Valley of Screams can be interpreted as a nod to including the movie in canon. It should legitimately be enough to include movie feats and power-scaling for the Bleach profiles.

An alternative explanation, is that it could also be a simple throw-back to the movie for the readers (aka Easter Egg). It's entirely possible that Ichigo has been to the Valley of Screams at another point of time, not necessarily making the movie events themselves canon.

I find either interpretation equally plausible. My personal interpretation was the latter one. Since this might be an important change regarding Bleach profiles, I think we should wait for the rest of the staff (notably, senior Admins Rocks75 and SeiryuShin) to give their opinion.

 

[Sheoth]

Yeah, Lord Kavpeny basically summed up my whole view on the subject. Couldn't really put into words what I was thinking....

So yeah, it could be a legit reference which would involve the movie further in the main canon, or it could simply be an Easter Egg type nod as a throwback. Either one is possible really.

 

[Kavpeny]

I just went to Valley of Screams on the Bleach wikia (not the most accurate source sure, but definitely the most accessible on short notice). Here is the page.

Apparently, the manga concept of Valley of Screams is entirely different from the Movie version. The manga depicts Valley of Screams as plural, and "pockets of space, varying drastically in size, that are composed of souls ejected from the reincarnation cycle and reside in the space known as the Garganta."

"A Valley of Screams can also be modified by individuals with certain powers, such as Fullbringers. At the behest of Kisuke Urahara, Riruka Dokugamine used her ability to insert and remove anything into and from an object she likes to place a small Valley of Screams into a box"

Ichigo's statement refers to the manga version of VoS, which was introduced in chapter 625 (far later than the movie). The reference to Riruka using her Fullbring powers on it is with respect to the manga VoS, not the movie one.

"Bleach: Memories of Nobody introduced the Valley of Screams long before its introduction in the manga, and its explanation differs from Yoruichi's. There is only one Valley of Screams, and its appearance is a regular occurrence that happens naturally due to souls getting lost trying to get to Soul Society; as such, it can only be accessed from the Human World."

It's quite clear that the movie VoS is something entirely different. The manga adapts the name from the movie, true, but implements the concept very differently and at no point does it validate the events of the movie as canon.


I would like to revise my previous stance based on this information. In my understanding, the movie is non-cano, hence Bleach profiles should not be upgraded on the basis of movie feats.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. I agree with Lord Kavpeny's assessment. Thank you for the research.

 

[Sheoth]

Since that was cleared up via research, I have to agree with the above^ now....

 

[Illuminati478]

the only actual difference i found on the page is the fact that in there is only one valley of screams in the movie while there are multiple in the manga, and still there isn't any explaination on how and when ichigo had been in (one of??) the valley(ies) of screams and for what reason if the movie isn't canon, but i can respect the admins decision and i will not press this any further...

Edit: as i've said if you are unwilling to discuss this any further just say so, i am not trying to bother anyone by any means, but i do wish to at least remove any doubts... Because i still believe that there is room for discussion, and i do not trust the bleach wiki 100% of the time, i've found some innacuracies there in the past on various subjects...

 

[Kavpeny]

@Illuminati478: That's not the issue here. The reason for my accreditation of the movie as non-canon is that the VoS Ichigo is referring to is not the movie one, but the one introduced in the manga. This distinction is made by the fact that Ichigo states that Riruka boxes the VoS, which occurs in the manga only.

Since this entire topic revolves around Ichigo's referral to the VoS, I pointed out that the since the reference is to the manga version, the questionable canonicity of the movie is turned to non-canon.

Also, I am an opinionated man and I also strongly stick to my reasoning. That does not mean however, that I am above being proven wrong. If someone else has a contradictory view, along with proper (aka logical and rational) proof to back it up, I will revise my stance.

 

[Illuminati478]

I am not beyond mistake either, i've proven that quite a lot, but, at least as i understood, from ichigo's phrasing and the way he described it, he said he had been in VoS once before, meaning before he had been in the box shaped VoS made by riruka and yukio, that is how i understood it...

 

[Ichigo_Freecs]

Oh, I must have been tired as heck when I read that chapter. Most of the time, I see everything within a chapter and understand everything, but I didn't notice this. This is really cool to see that Kubo recognizes his series' movies.

I think that the movie is partially canon.

 

[GurrenLagann117]

While I do accept Lord Kavpeny's Argument I dont think we should completly rule out The movies being canon.

 

[Nisemono96]

Okay this is edited version:

The wiki is not really the most reliable of sources, and it a good quick reference and not wholly inaccurate but it only does so much good as a reference and as the Valley of Screams made it's debut in Memories of Nobody, I watched it to get a feel for whats being debated and what has been stated so far.

These descriptions are taken from the Wiki and will be important to making my points.

General overview: A Valley of Screams is a dimension that forms between the Human World and the Soul Society, stemmed from the Dangai.

- Manga: Valleys of Screams are pockets of space, varying drastically in size, that are composed of souls ejected from the reincarnation cycle and reside in the space known as the Garganta. Despite the fact that the Reiatsu in the Garganta is incredibly unstable, to the point where no one can move through it if they do not constantly release their own Reiatsu to create footholds, the Valleys of Screams are able to exist as dimensions of Reishi for an unknown reason; Yoruichi Shihōin theorizes that they are able to do so because the very structure of their Reishi is different from that of normal Reishi.

- Movie: There is only one Valley of Screams, and its appearance is a regular occurrence that happens naturally due to souls getting lost trying to get to Soul Society; as such, it can only be accessed from the Human World. The lost souls that create it are known as Blanks.

- Garganta: A Garganta is a spiritual pathway connecting Hueco Mundo to other worlds. Besides the Human World and Soul Society, it can open the gates of the Dangai. A turbulence of Reishi blows within Garganta. To move through it, travelers must create footholds using the Reishi.

- Dangai: The Dangai (Parsing World), also known as the Precipice World, is the dimension between Soul Society and the Human World, separated from space and time. The Dangai was originally both a penal colony and a passage to the Human World. The Kōryü (Wresting Flow) and the Kōtotsu (Wresting-Surge) are remnants of its time as a penal colony, they also act as a means of defense against unwanted intruders. The Dangai is an isolated space which is surrounded by numerous stacked-up layers of time's current, resulting in it being a place where the density of time within it to be extremely high when compared to other exterior dimensions.The Dangai was an integral plot-device for the first Bleach feature length film, Bleach: Memories of Nobody. It inadvertently spawned the Valley of Screams, and was revealed to play a role in the creation of Blanks.

The Wiki description above for the Movie's VoS generalizes the Movies events without having actually covered the details of the matter, as from just watching the movie the first 1 minute and 22 seconds,

https://youtu.be/VKNd3HheTMw?t=15

Are about the 12 Dvision has monitoring an anomaly with this gradually expanding dimension and a team from the Stealth Force has been dispatched to investigate, and they were accessing it from the Dangai and Rin Tsubokura noted how they were 10 seconds away from entering the dimensional zone (VoS) and set up communications with them only to hear how their exit closed, that the dimension had now become inaccessible and that they got caught up in the Restricted Current, and died.

At the link provided from 18:14 to 19:18 Kisuke (then Toshiro) begins to explain the situation with this new dimension,

https://youtu.be/esFxEL5TBqw?t=1094

About the relation between Earth and the Soul Society and the Dangai's role in keeping the two from colliding. Since the dimension had become inaccessible from the Dangai and there was no entrance to it from the S.S they were investigating strange influxes of spiritual waves coming from the World of the Living, which was the only place that had direct access to this expanding dimension, it was just a matter of locating it.

Now the Wiki's general overview and the manga's description of a Valley of Screams and the Dangai's role in its creation, borrowed from the Wiki:

- The Dangai was an integral plot-device for the first Bleach feature length film, Bleach: Memories of Nobody. It inadvertently spawned the Valley of Screams, and was revealed to play a role in the creation of Blanks.

- A Valley of Screams is a dimension that forms between the Human World and the Soul Society, stemmed from the Dangai.

- Valleys of Screams are pockets of space, varying drastically in size, that are composed of souls ejected from the reincarnation cycle and reside in the space known as the Garganta. Despite the fact that the Reiatsu in the Garganta is incredibly unstable, to the point where no one can move through it if they do not constantly release their own Reiatsu to create footholds, the Valleys of Screams are able to exist as dimensions of Reishi for an unknown reason; Yoruichi Shihōin theorizes that they are able to do so because the very structure of their Reishi is different from that of normal Reishi.

The Soul Society through the 12th Division first noticed the anomaly from within the Dangai and that is where the Shinigami of the Stealth Force initially tried to enter it to investigate the reason for its expansion, until shut closed on them. Just like it says for the Valley of Screams, this growing dimension was first noticed in the place from which the Valley of Screams originates, the Dangai, but the Valley of Screams occupies the space known as the Garganta so if that is the case then using this wiki description of a Garganta as reference.

"A Garganta is a spiritual pathway connecting Hueco Mundo to other worlds. Besides the Human World and Soul Society, it can open the gates of the Dangai. A turbulence of Reishi blows within Garganta. To move through it, travelers must create footholds using the Reishi."

So if the Valleys of Screams occupy the Garganta's space, and Garganta's can open into the Dangai it can be inferred that the Garganta is a space that lies just outside the Dangai, and is perhaps kinda like a dump for everything the Kōtotsu the "Cleaner" catches and discards which could explain the unstable nature of the Garganta's reishi.

That brings us to Urahara's second explanation from 19:29 to 21:04 and the expansion upon it by Ganryu and Mayuri from 55:35 to 57:38,

https://youtu.be/esFxEL5TBqw?t=1169

https://youtu.be/esFxEL5TBqw?t=3365

When Ichigo described the Blanks, Kisuke and Toshiro recognized them as what they are and knew that must mean the mysterious problem dimension must be a Valley of Screams. Kisuke described how a Valley of Screams forms from souls that became separated from Transmigration or the Cycle of Reincarnation having lost their way in the Dangai which is a fact missed in the movie description of the Valley of Screams on the Wiki, but played straight in the description in the Manga. That this collection of lost souls gather into a Valley of Screams where the Souls separate into Memory (Shinenju) and Energy (Blanks/Valley of Screams).

Kisuke had described that the appearance of a Valley of Screams, the context suggesting that has been more than one as opposed to how the Wiki's description for the Movie:

- Movie: There is only one Valley of Screams, and its appearance is a regular occurrence that happens naturally due to souls getting lost trying to get to Soul Society; as such, it can only be accessed from the Human World. The lost souls that create it are known as Blanks.

He went on to say that the Valley of Screams is in of itself not a cause for concern since it is a natural and common phenomena, but the fact that this one has connected the WoL and the S.S, and that is what is not a natural occurrence and that someone must be messing around with it to cause this problem in the first place.

The fact is we already know from recent events in the Manga and from the Dark Clans ability to draw on the VoS for power that a Valley of Screams can be manipulated with right knowledge and ability. Fullbringers can manipulate the "soul" or spiritual energies present all matter, and they can even go so far as to alter certain object because of a closeness to that object, being that from close and contact with it they have imprinted themselves onto it on a more personal level than they would with say, the sidewalk or a lamp post that comes into contact with many different people on a daily basis, but that closeness or affinity allows them to pull out the object's soul and boost it with their own, transforming it in the process.

Now a Blank and therefore a Valley of Screams is composed of raw undiluted Spiritual energies that lack memories and connections so it would not be unreasonable to assume a Fullbringer who can draw on spiritual energy and whose powers are based upon personal connections could be able to "pull" on a VoS with ease and basically do what Yukio and Riruka did at Kisuke's behest.

Kisuke used this Fullbrought Valley of Screams as a method from which to travel undetected to and within the Royal Realm, now The Dark Clan who resided within the Valley of Screams and relied on its power if they could shut it off from within the Dangai it is likely they could made sure it's only entrance was within the World of the Living which makes perfect sense since their goal is to capture the Shinenju (Senna) who is in the World of the Living and bring her to the center of the VoS to basically destroy the world

https://youtu.be/esFxEL5TBqw?t=5212

Rukia explains that as the Blanks energies continue to dissipate all memories of Senna in of herself will fade, due to being non-being but it does not mean everything else disappears as well. As there were many who did not come into contact with Senna but still experienced the events of the movie and knowledge of Shinneju, Blanks, and VoS still exist along with the fact that they would technically remember everything else but the specifics of Shinenju Senna (though Ichigo might).

The very fact that Ichigo referenced going to a Valley of Screams and the image provided is what it looked like in the movie, if the events were not on some level canonical there would little reason for him to reference having gone to a formerly non-canon dimension based around non-canonical events. What possible reason would he go to one if not for the events shown in the movie?

I hope this is better than before.

 

[Romo_Vacen]

Interesting, but there is allot of instances where, this could happen. Don't get to happy

 

[Nisemono96]

Get too happy? What do you mean by that?

I was mostly trying to cover and make right the inconsistancies on the Wiki in regards to the Valley of Screams and how it plays into the world of Bleach. Also all those "instances" have a limited timeframe, as before and after the Arrancar/Hueco Mundo Retrieval arcs he is much too busy with training to "master" his in inner Hollow and later fighting in Hueco Mundo to have been going to the Valley of Screams. It couldn't have happened during the Battle of Fake Karakura or in the lead up to Ichigo's final battle with Aizen in which he lost his powers, and canonically he hadn't kept them until the end of the Reigai filler arc, and once he gets his powers they are much different in appearance and strength than what he used in the movie.

In the Movie Ichigo had not once Hollowfied like he has in the other movies or when the going got tough he'd whip out out the mask to deal with a stronger enemy once he had the ability to don and consciously wield its powers. The lack of Hollowfication, and the old appearance of Shinigami power obviously place sometime before the Arrancar arc timewise. But honestly it really should matter less about when it happened and where in the story more, what matters is why he'd go to the Valley of Screams. It isn't exactly a place someone goes to without reasons tied to the place itself, like say the Shinenju.

The movie introduced the concept of the Valley of Screams, and I would like to think that I have covered that the Wiki was not very thorough on covering the details, being that the Movies Valley of Screams are infact more in line with the Manga description than the Wiki gives it credit for, and the movie also provides the motive for why Ichigo would have gone to or seen a Valley of Screams, to me that is good enough as opposed to employing arbitrary skepticism that needs to hold off for "better" evidence of this Movie having indeed been canonical. The evidence is there, it just requires one to take in both the bold and fine print and compare and contrast that information. I am not a calcer, but I do possess decent story and plot comprehension and I do think I covered the info pretty well.

I hope that didn't come off as being overly defensive or even offensive, just wanted to defend my post and the reasoning behind it.

 

[Nibbler3100]

Sounds very feasible ^.^

 

[Antvasima]

I am sorry, but the above text is too muddled for your points to come across. Drowning us in text will not convince us. Keep your central evidence to brief bullet points, and I will consider it. However, "arbitrary" skepticism/need for direct evidence is a necessity for this wiki, especially when the Bleach wiki agrees with it.

 

[Illuminati478]

The bleach wiki was inaccurate about the valley of screams in the first place...

 

[Antvasima]

Well, he will nevertheless have to summarise his points, and we will still need direct evidence. If you want the information there changed about the VoS, you should probably talk to the Bleach wiki staff about it. They are more informed about the matter than I am.

 

[Nisemono96]

No problem I understand I will try to make it more concise, I am still getting a handle for setting up the links and I will try make use of that better to make my points better.

Sorry for the info dump.

 

[Antvasima]

No problem. It just became too disorganised for the points to come across for people who are unfamiliar with what you are talking about.

 

[Nisemono96]

I wasn't sure I should posted the edited one as a new post so I placed it back in the originals place, hopefully it is better. But yeah it is up.

 

[Antvasima]

I asked for bullet points evidence, not even more wall of text. I am way too bored, tired, uninterested, and burned out from constantly having to monitor this site to read long disorganised texts indepth at the moment.

 

[Nisemono96]

I am sorry I respectfully can't say I really understand why it is so difficult to just read it, I cleaned up the format, provided links with which to explain and show my point and got rid of unessary content. If you just don't wish to know my reasoning, click the links and see the info directly from the source material.

I tried and I am sorry it didn't work out. There is always next time, as I am still new at this sort of thing, so hopefully I'll get better.

 

[Antvasima]

Because I simultaneously have ADD and am mind-numbingly tired of constantly having to manage all of these completely uninteresting trivial matters on the wiki. Hundreds of them every month. This is not one instance. It is one in a seemingly endless series of distractions, and I cannot get the energy to focus on them anymore if they are long and rambling, given how completely uninteresting that they are to me. Keep it very brief, concise, to the point, with concrete evidence of the manga directly referring to the movie, and how it can possibly fit into continuity, and I will have a much easier time doing so.

 

[A6colute]

My opinion didn't change. I don't think we can use those movies for calculations in main series.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Thanks for replying.

 

[Illuminati478]

well, since now i have a relative amount of free time, i think i will recap some of the recent points that came up here:

1. while the wiki may say the Movie version of The VoS is different from the manga, the explanations given in the movie About the VoS closely resemble the explanations yoruichi gave, and do suggest the VoS in the Manga are the the same as in the movie.

2. from details about the way the VoS behaves both in the manga and in the Movie (can be controlled or manipulated via special abilities and so forth) also suggest the same thing.

3. IIRC the movie never explicitly said there was only one VoS, but rather refered to the one that caused problems (i could be mistaken)

4.Ichigo does reference the events of the movie, As there is no other logical point time where he could have been there before the referance came, and it is also highly unlikely that Kubo would put ichigo in a place that he never mentioned before chapter 627, unbeknownst to the reader and without any logical explanation...

 

[Antvasima]

Well, it sounds inconclusive then. How does he reference the events of the movie?

 

[Illuminati478]

by saying that he has been in a valley of Screams before he traveled using one, as there is no other time he had been in the VoS other then the Movie itself...

 

[Antvasima]

It could theoretically have been some off-page unrelated story, but in either case, if there is no timeframe that he could logically have done so it seems too inconclusive. We should probably leave this matter be unless he starts to reference specific events.

 

[Illuminati478]

but i don't see how it is inconclusive, i mean we have been following ichigo all ths first half of the story, and in the current Arc he is always in a hurry, it seems pretty obvious that he is referancing the movies events...

 

[Antvasima]

But when is it supposed to have occurred? It seems uncertain to completely overturn the statistics for all Bleach characters based on a very diffuse casual reference.

 

[Antvasima]

If it is important, I am certain that the events of the movie will be referenced later. In that case I have no problem with changing them.

 

[Illuminati478]

If i were to pick a time frame for the movie, it would between the Soul Society arc and the Hueco Mundo arc, and it while yeah it would give upgrades to the bleachverse, ignoring it would make ichigo's statements about it completely nonesensicle at best, and outright stupid at worst, notice that the statement was adressed to riruka which is one the four characters in the scene that weren't in the movie, while all the characters that were in the movie do not questions his statement or ask him to explain any further, if the movie is non canon, all of the cast should have at least question ichigo about why he had been in a VoS before...

 

[Antvasima]

Well, as I said, it seems too diffuse and unspecific for me, but let's wait to see what the other admins think.

 

[A6colute]

And again:

My opinion didn't change. I don't think we can use those movies for calculations in main series.

 

[DontTalk]

Hmmm... technically I am always the guy who says interpretation of statements should be applicable for vs-matters. As that I don´t find anything wrong with the idea that the movie is cannon.

The only thing I could actually question is wether or not the diagram in the movie is drawn to scale.

 

[Illuminati478]

the diagrem in the movie should have been drawn to scale since the 12th division lab members were using it as a radar of sorts, besides there isn't any other evidence in the manga that contredicts it as far as i can remember, its not like the Seireitei case where the diagrem given and the visuals contredict, this evidence thus far stands alone at the witness stand....

 

[Nisemono96]

The chances of the movie being referenced beyond that VoS Fullbring Elevator is slim to none, as anything related to the Valley of Screams was pertinent while they in it, with the explanation of how it was created. It is likely Ichigo's remark upon having gone to one will be IT, and waiting for more is just putting the descision off for more references that likely will never come about, considering they are about to enage the opposition and it would serve no further purpose in the plot to discuss it further, since again it was pertainent while they were in the Garganta Elevator thing. What's been given already has shown us two things,

1. Valley of Screams are canonical.

2. Ichigo has been to one, which is also canonical now.

For any of the possible and unlikely reasons unrelated to the events of the movie, where one might say he would have gone to a Valley of Screams behind the scenes, doesn't change the fact that movie provides a clear motive for him to go to one, not to mention having been the media to first introduce the Valley of Screams, the only time we see Ichigo having gone to one we know of was the one in the movie and shouldn't that be enough? Because it is unlikely we'll get any further evidence beyond what we already have, what with the oncoming battles.