Bleach Revisions: Continuation

[Amlad22]

Didn't Wonderweiss take out Ukitake by surprise attack? So wonderweiss beating him shouldn't change anything. Ukitake should still be 6-C, scaling to Toshiro, Shunsui, Yamamoto, etc. Scaling the vizards to ukitake implies that they can go toe to toe with the head captain, which is hilariously wrong.

 

[Soldier_Blue]

Amlad22 does make a good point. Ukitake was taken out by surprise and, in Shounen manga/anime, surprise attacks tend to allow characters to severely wound those well above themselves. Bleach is no exception. Just look at how Hisagi, a 7-C character, pierced and killed a 7-A character. And Ichigo managed to cut through Aizen's torso with a surprise attack.

Ukitake managed to absorb and redirect Starrk's Cero right back at him. Wouldn't he need at least as much reiatsu as Starrk to pull that off? Or do we count that as hax?

All this being said, I'm not completely opposed to a downgrade for Ukitake. But what would he be downgraded to anyway?

 

[KuuIchigo]

Honestly though, Ukitake should probably stay the same. Yamamoto stated that him and Shunsui were in a class of their own and in battle no one could match them. Even if it was off-screen he and Shunsui were able to hold their own against Yamamoto. Like you said, Soldier he could take Starrk's attack. And in the TYBW Urahara stated he had more reiatsu then your standard captain level.

Yes it was a surprised attack. The Wonderweiss thing is likely PIS like all the other examples you posted, Soldier.

Edit: Should change the "Likely" to "At most" since he is sickly.

 

[Soldier_Blue]

And in the TYBW Urahara stated he had more reiatsu then your standard captain level.

Yeah. It was made abundantly clear by Urahara and Rukia that his reiatsu was in a different class altogether from other Captain levels.

Rukia obviously knows Ukitake well. And Urahara's words we can take to the bank.

 

[KuuIchigo]

Yep. So I think that was the last issue I had (hopefully). Just need to finish off the Visoreds, Sternritter, and Fullbringers.

 

[Soldier_Blue]

Clarify again how the Tsukishima scales.

Town level+ or Large Town level? The former would be scaling from Chad. The latter would be from Shikai Byakuya.

As for Ginjo, I'll take care of his profile. He will have three keys as agreed on in the previous thread.

 

[KuuIchigo]

Tsukishima is 7-A for fighting a Bankai Byakuya and being able to damage him.

 

[Soldier_Blue]

That's after he received a portion of Ichigo's Fullbring power, right?

 

[KuuIchigo]

He never did.

 

[Soldier_Blue]

Ah... I forgot.

 

[Piercer_of_Heaven]

Seriously. I know we use reiatsu for scaling but we can't abuse it for people whose feats don't match what they are stated to be. The rankings also.

Why do you think I don't just go to every profile and just use the ranks and reiatsu reasoning. It's getting ridiculous at this point.

Did you read what is on his Starrk's profile? You keep bringing it up.

For Nnoitra: hell no. You said Starrk being Island level+ is wanked despite being able to fight Shunsui, but go on to say Nnoitra should have Island level+ durability when he got cut by a Kenpachi that was subconsciously holding himself back.

Again with the rankings. Yammy got defeated by a Byakuya and Kenpachi who were more interested in fighting each other.

I have no issues with using reiatsu (due to how it is) and rankings (to an extent), but they should preferably coincide with feats.

Edit: @Soldier: Yammy is High 7-C already. i don't agree with Szayelaporro scaling. Uryu and Renji were able to fight him and hurt him in base form (Renji) for god sakes.

I already said Aaroniero scales to Edrad.

I also don't think Mayuri scales. Uryu was able to fight him. Unless you want to tell me Uryu is a Captain level at this point.

Last time I'm going to bring this up.

Except none of the cases you mentioned applies to that.

Kubo>Us.

Of course I read his profile and its ridiculous. He could only fight Shikai Shunsui in his Resurrección, saying his Sealed/Base state is that level is wank.

Nnoitra has the most durable Hierro of the Espada. Explain how being cut by Kenpachi is an anti-feat? Just baseless reasonings. Kenpachi's feats in Hueco Mundo consist of beating Nnoitra and beating Yammy, Espada 0.

Again, how is that an anti-feat? Kenpachi had just defeated the most durable Espada and gained even more power due being near death. Byakuya finessed Zommari and has always been portrayed as comparable to Kenpachi.

Zommari didn't tank anything, he tried to shield himself and still got decimated, there's no reason for him to scale to Byakuya:

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-PfEVblE5l...H61Oet9SWOK9dMrmZLgwmACHM/s16000/0302-004.png

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-8Avf28tLb...B5zzZDdyYMQfKT0RtCwGRACHM/s16000/0302-005.png

You haven't brought up any contradictory feats.

But giving any Pre-Skip Espada Island level+, except likely Starrk's wolves specifically, doesn't make sense. Starrk's Cero did jack to Shunsui and he even stated that his Ceros weren't strong enough to hurt the Vizards. The only other damage he did to Shunsui was via games but that's not conventional AP. However, his wolves could oneshot Hollowfied Vizards. Which is why I suggest that they all scale to Mountain level+.

I'll say it again, there's more evidence that suggests the Top 3 are near equal than anything else:

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-wfiFWRhuU...zuvyoD32OtAhjHp7lChWvQCHM/s16000/0316-007.png

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-3889xr_XA...mcOO8egF0FPOealzSKxmLACHM/s16000/0339-009.png

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-PUS1YAwxB...mE5AEOrimYRniSrQ1xCXfACHM/s16000/0339-013.png

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-JD7v7Dot_..._0Dzg8CIbX06B_axC4_wCwCHM/s16000/0339-014.png

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-ZS4ytbpbW...R7kQBVAGbSGpAnby7NHPowCHM/s16000/0339-015.png

Starrk was also getting shook at Tōshirō's Bankai:

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-03bXZwFIV...9Qef17wn9_NM4EgkGPyDLwCHM/s16000/0359-009.png

Uryu could only fight Mayuri with Letz Still, which was stated to give him reiatsu that Mayuri had never seen before:

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-LroI3ZVOw...aOS9jayM-NcI1QflKXLrnQCHM/s16000/0125-004.png

There's also no reason for Grimmjow to scale to Tōshirō's feat. This is what happened when Tōshirō fought Grimmjow's replacement:

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-aqfForjA6...Xwx4uZYlhSL4E0v6-osdFQCHM/s16000/0232-010.png

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-49elfjMGV...UA3TJo_2dWCHaXeqZpQDVACHM/s16000/0234-023.png

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-_Eri-r4VO...LN-Wy2sOyqHSS5Wm5t1yjwCHM/s16000/0234-022.png

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-1Cul18AvZ...MASPSa3NIFexUva04NMLTACHM/s16000/0234-025.png

No-sells his attack and turns him into ice.

Hollowfied Love and Rose>Resurrección Starrk, which means Base Love and Rose are also>Base Starrk, as proven further above. Yet Tosen nearly kills Shinji and he has a Hollowfication and Resurreccion:

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-1vdV31e-2...Ku6Da9EDDfsBGNAFifirigCHM/s16000/0367-003.png

We also know that he is a Director General:

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-O8E2Fadfy...4GA-75DAVFmTirxFwu1wTwCHM/s16000/0213-013.png

Komamura being able to fight Hollowfied Tosen for a bit just means he's that strong. If there are anti-feats, please state them.

Now, for the extra shit:

Vizard's scale to Resurrección Starrk while Hollowfied:

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-ZvhX6gm05...Z-yAzDDv6tM8AyN7stJIGwCHM/s16000/0373-005.png

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-uckq2DAo-...VviXoJYeS0ZFGV2gArPQxwCHM/s16000/0373-007.png

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-Mgkgm21ab...UI5f3yORC2cfq8rXs9QiZwCHM/s16000/0373-009.png

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-HwgUP3Pz-...bpCchxZ4XS1mjmbmFOfgsgCHM/s16000/0373-012.png

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-V8ZqMgfgn...MqhFJzAahyBzuUJcpxwMXgCHM/s16000/0373-014.png

Wonderweiss is an interesting subject to say the least, he shattered Tōshirō's ice with a scream:

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-RdOWArJQN...urFikCAZA2SBKF9I7m4gQgCHM/s16000/0364-008.png

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-qWM9NiJqW...n71ejYpu4BhCEuaYsVEZPgCHM/s16000/0364-009.png

 

[Dr.Fix]

Lol suprise attack, Jushiro was looking right at wonderweiss. Not like that impacts DURABILITY anyway, but yea, definetelly not a surprise attack so much as a clear blitz.

@KuuIchigo how is it PIS is your excuse every time I read one of your posts?

PoH makes some good points.

 

[Dr.Fix]

I suugest 8-C level durability for "fragile" Ukitake & "Unknown" AP since he has none to go off of. His speed isn't as hard as pretty much every bleach character has the same SPD listed on their profile, in some cases many times with all their keys.

 

[Soldier_Blue]

Yes, Piercer of Heaven does raise some good points.

But I don't understand Dr. Fix's suggestion for Ukitake with 8-C durability and "Unknown" AP. Is that a non-serious post?

 

[Dr.Fix]

Funny, I feel the same way about most of your posts

Menos is Buildinglevel according to this forum (Ichigo's page); Meno>Lilynette; Jushiro>Lilynette; Jushiro=Menos min and <Base Wonderweiss<Mashiro/Kensei.

EDIT: Wish I could say Starrk Island level made that much sense.

 

[Soldier_Blue]

Just what was the point of the first sentence?

Ukitake is still one of the stronger captains. He'd still scale to the Tier 7 feats from other captains. Even Lieutenants have feats ranging from 8-A to 7-C and Captains are far enough above them to take on multiple opponents of such level at once.

I suppose an argument could be made for Starrk to be downgraded. But your points on Ukitake make no sense.

 

[Dr.Fix]

What was the point of calling my post non-serious?

His being a captain doesn't quantify his durability if the CC himself notes he is fragile.


EDIT: I suppose he could be slotted as 8-A if we high ball him, but no higher without bumping Kensei etc up.

 

[Soldier_Blue]

What was the point of calling my post non-serious?

His being a captain doesn't quantify his durability if the CC himself notes he is fragile.

Can you blame me for asking such a question? You called for an 8-C rating for a character who scales from a bunch of Tier 7 feats.

Doesn't change the fact that he fought Yamamoto for a while. Doesn't change the fact that his durability still scales from other Tier 7 characters. Also keep in mind that he was taken out by another Tier 7 character, not some 8-C to High 8-C seated officer class fodder.

 

[Zensum]

Cliffnotes plz. What we discussing here

 

[KazuiK]

It does not make sense Ukitake to be 8-C, Yama himself says that Shunsui and Ukitake are on the same level.

 

[Dr.Fix]

Cliffnotes plz. What we discussing here

Jushiro, Starrk, and Shikai Shunsui need to be reevaluated/downgraded because their currents stats are based of miscalculations and false assumptions

 

[LordAizenSama]

What has happened here..... again.

We are over 1000 msgs and still not done. Ugh.

 

[Dr.Fix]

@Soldier I explained the Yamamoto discontinuation last night. Fortunately its not 1000 posts back but just a few up. He was taken out by town level character, who got tossed around by townlevel character. I don't see a character that can't keep up and gets a fist through the back and chest at this same level.

 

[Amlad22]

Why are we even still talking about the seniors? This was settled so long ago.

Ukitake has so many feats to keep him at Island level. Fighting an angry Yamamoto, fighting Cang Du in the first invasion, he's been stated to be on the same level of Shunsui who is at least comparable to post timeskip Toshiro and of course his best feat, was when he stopped giving his Reiatsu to the soul palace gate in the final arc, and none of the vizards or other soul reapers there could replenish how much Reiatsu was lost. So Ukitake's Reiatsu >> Vizards.

With all the feats i just gave it doesn't make sense for wonderweiss impaling Ukitake to be anything but PIS.

 

[Zensum]

@Dr.Fix gotcha

IMO It would make sense to scale starrk and jushiro to around pre timeskip shikai shunsui as they were fighting on a simliar level with shunsui having superior showings. Idk if you would scale jushiro to post timeskip shunsui tho but yama statements do say they are same level.

 

[Amlad22]

There is no more such thing as pre and post timeskip seniors. It was agreed that they didn't get stronger after the timeskip and if anything Yamamoto got weaker. The only real thing affecting Ukitake's scaling isn't a lack of feats as i have given a bunch of those, but more importantly it's if Shunsui scales to post timeskip Toshiro. As long as everyone still agrees that Shunsui should be comparable or superior to Toshiro, than Starrk and Ukitake scale to him.

 

[Piercer_of_Heaven]

^Starrk doesn't fully scale to Shunsui but Ukitake definitely scales.

 

[SuperKamiNappa]

Starkk and Shunsui are comparable physically. It was only after Shunsui pulled out his hax that he started to dominate.

 

[Piercer_of_Heaven]

@SuperKamiNappa Not really. Starrk shot Shunsui with a Cero at point blank range and it barely did anything to him. Starrk also stated that his Ceros weren't strong enough to hurt individuals like Hollowfied Love and Rose. However, Starrk's wolves are easily Island level+, as they oneshotted Hollowfied Love and Rose.

 

[Dr.Fix]

Why are we even still talking about the seniors? This was settled so long ago.
Ukitake has so many feats to keep him at Island level. Fighting an angry Yamamoto, fighting Cang Du in the first invasion, he's been stated to be on the same level of Shunsui who is at least comparable to post timeskip Toshiro and of course his best feat, was when he stopped giving his Reiatsu to the soul palace gate in the final arc, and none of the vizards or other soul reapers there could replenish how much Reiatsu was lost. So Ukitake's Reiatsu >> Vizards.

With all the feats i just gave it doesn't make sense for wonderweiss impaling Ukitake to be anything but PIS.

For starters it would move things along if you read what was going on instead of brining up "feats" which have been debunked.

 

[Amlad22]

@Piercer Physically Starrk isn't as strong as Shunsui, i totally agree, but they are still comparable, Shunsui did infact need his hax (kageoni, iraoni, etc) to defeat Starrk. So Starrk still deserves 6-C. Maybe there could be a possibly 6-C on Base Starrk's profile but that's all that should be changed. Like i said before, no need to change the seniors.

 

[Piercer_of_Heaven]

@Amlad22 His wolves are 6-C but that's it. He would be 7-A normally. Maybe he could be 6-C but not to the same level as the other Captains. Aizen>Espada combined. His Base is no where near 6-C. The best it could scale to is At least High 7-C.

I never debated the Seniors stats, if anything, they could be higher.

And Shunsui had no problems with damaging Starrk:

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-3njiFz_mN...dYwg1HBB10pOFwKpBCgw7ACHM/s16000/0374-010.png

 

[Amlad22]

@Pericer his base was still able to fight Shunsui in Base, that's why i think at least 7-A Possibly 6-C could be added, since we don't know how much Shunsui was holding back. In ressurection though he should be superior to Segunda Etapa Ulquiorra and took direct attacks from Hollowfied Love with no damage at all. So he can tank mountain level+ attacks with no damage in ressurection.

As for Shunsui damaging Starrk, the scan you posted shows Shunsui using iraoni to hurt Starrk. Which is a hax move that greatly amps your power if you hit the correct colour on your opponent. This also happened right after Shunsui sneak attacked Starrk with kageoni (another hax move).

 

[SuperKamiNappa]

Not too mention Shunsui seriously considered using bankai to fight Starrk when his zanpakto wasn't letting him use his hax.

 

[Piercer_of_Heaven]

@Amlad22 Shunsui wasn't going all out and you would basically be saying that Base Starrk=Resurrección Starrk. Nothing suggests Resurrección Starrk>Segunda Etapa Ulquiorra. We don't really know how they compare to each other, unless, we include light novels. Starrk took attacks from Love's Shikai, actually.

You got it backwards. Shunsui called grey which reduced the damage he did to Starrk. Normally, the attack would have sliced his arm off, which is stated by Starrk.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-bPq-ZQbjz...AvkKFeKVpW9XzvfRD922vgCHM/s16000/0374-014.png

And Shunsui was able to stab Starrk through the back. "Sneak attack" is not an excuse, Starrk was in the middle of combat.

@SuperKamiNappa That means nothing. Shunsui had no problems tanking his Cero and piercing his Hierro. Starrk couldn't damage Vizards without wolves. Shunsui was just being an idiot.

 

[Amlad22]

You've got it backwards man, Starrk said "it was just a nick, but it felt like my arm got taken off" meaning that because of Shunsui's hax, a small cut was inhanced in power to feel like an arm cleaving slash.

And I'm not saying Base Starrk is equal to ressurection Starrk, Island level is a big tier, both of his forms can be Island level and still be far apart in power.

Love's hollowfied shikai is mountain level+, scaling to Toshiro. So that's why i brought it up, if Starrk can tank mountain level+ attacks with no damage he should be above mountain level+.

Once again, Shunsui only stabbed Starrk via hax. Kageoni affects the user only if they are standing on their shadow, which Starrk was. Which is why he was damaged. The only time Shunsui damaged Starrk badly without using hax was after his wolves were destroyed and he was injured from his last fights

 

[Dr.Fix]

Small amendum, Starrk never tanked Hollowfied shikai Love. Kubo just drew the attack, but not it connecting.

 

[Malikobama1]

I don't know why Resurreccion Starrk is so controversial right now. Shunsui literally stated that Starrk was enough to force him into Bankai if not for Ukitake being there to redirect his Cero Metralleta. It follows to reason that Cero Metralleta is powerful enough to quickly overwhelm and defeat Shikai Shunsui. Resurreccion Starrk has Island level reiatsu by Shunsui's own statement. Shunsui used Irooni hax to even the playing field and damage Starrk.


Base Starrk is another matter entirely, to be honest I'm kind of skeptical of him being Island level in base.


As for the Visoreds: Starrk stated that the Hollowfied Visoreds were too powerful for his Ceros to really hurt, yet his Ceros were clearly powerful enough to force Shikai Shunsui into Bankai lest he be overwhelmed and defeated. Hollowfied Visored Captains in Shikai, and also in Bankai, therefore scale to some baseline level of 6-C. No one's saying they're far into island level, but at full power they should definitely be at the base of the tier. Especially because their Hollowfied Shikai attacks were powerful enough to destroy Starrk's wolves, which are significantly more powerful than his Ceros.


All that matches up with Wonderweiss one-shotting Ukitake. And it wasn't a surprise attack either, Ukitake was directly looking at him; Wonderweiss was just fast enough to blitz and powerful enough to one-shot. Wonderweiss has no anti-feats to suggest him beating Ukitake was PIS. It just means he's somewhere in island level, with Base Yamamoto being much farther into island level. We have no idea how the fight between Yama and Ukitake/Shunsui went, it could be that all Ukitake did was redirect Yama's flames for all we know. We can also surmise that it's extremely unlikely Yama was actually trying to kill the duo since he treats them like sons. He was just angry enough to want to beat them up.

 

[KazuiK]

Should not Orihime and Tsukishima have an update?

 

[Dr.Fix]

^^Certainly, they're pretty out of date. A mod should probably start a seperate thread for fullbringers and/or the fullbring arc. This thread has enough going on as it is.


A Bleach SPD thread would also I think be appreciated.