Bleach: Possible upgrade for Existance eraser ability and resistance for Ichigo

[EldemadeDityjon]

I agree with Ichigo getting resistance. Yhwach should get it too. Neutral on Ichigo getting EE. Mainly because only Aizen shown a reiastu that strong.

and for the “any human” part is because an human was charging azien, not because it works on human, in the last arc Aizen erased a shinigami while sealed.

Thanks for input

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

The kototsu is a spiritual being, it's heavily implied by isshin that it wasn't erased from existence as he could still feel its residual spirit energy despite aizen completely destroying its entire body.

True EE = ABSOLUTELY NOTHING is left behind

Bro don't make up stories

 

[YukaSama4]

Yeah the cleaner isnt a spiritual being as Gin stated

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

We see Aizen do what he did to humans to Shinigami in the TYBW don’t know if that got mentioned.

 

[TOAAPRESENCE1]

I knew this was coming when I approved it.

As it currently stands, I am a bit neutral towards giving Ichigo resistance to EE because I honestly believe that Aizen's soul crush is more a matter of AP than it is an actual ability. However, I will approve the resistance because it is on Aizen's profile.

However, flat no to EE for Ichigo. Simply put, he lacks any feats of doing so and since we saw him fighting all-out besides Renji against Yhwach and in the vicinity of Orihime without erasing them or mentioning of that being possible. So it's also contradicted.

Edit: Not to mention just his entire fight with the Quincy before getting up to the Soul Palace.

Aizen is just unique in this regard as far as we're shown.

Renji and ichigo never fought together, all of that was aizen using his illusions

As for ichigo he warned orihime to use her shields on herself and even get away if it became too much

As for the Quincy, we know that since ichigo came down he had been holding back to go all out on Yhwach

 

[TOAAPRESENCE1]

Huh, I tire of you constantly resorting to calling my conclusions arguments from ignorance. Especially in this case where my argument isn't solely that he lacks any statements or showings of EE, but that he has direct anti-feats of doing so. After Ichigo regains the power he once had, where he would be "transcendent" again, he is shown fighting multiple times. He battles several of the Sternritter, with no mentions or showing of his spiritual pressure erasing others. He battles against Yhwach briefly, once again, no showing or mentions of EE. While battling Yhwach the second time, Orihime is just fine being in his general vicinity even after he releases his spiritual pressure. And in his final battle against Yhwach, Renji is there and just ******* dandy without worry of getting erased. Ichigo had ample opportunity to show the same "existence erasure" as Aizen, but completely fails to.

He's not getting EE, simple as that.

Again, that's not renji

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

Also Aizen’s mention of “humans” may not be a race limiter as he also refers to Ichigo as a “human” despite Ichigo being a mixing pot of all spiritual races.

 

[KazuiK]

Why would it be EE only in the soul when Matsumoto prevents don kanonji from being erased by Aizen's Reiatsu, when don kanonji is just a human with a physical body?

Anyway, I agree with the resistance to EE but I am neutral towards Ichigo having EE.

Also, Quincys are referred to as humans as well.

 

[TOAAPRESENCE1]

Why would it be EE only in the soul when Matsumoto prevents don kanonji from being erased by Aizen's Reiatsu, when don kanonji is just a human with a physical body?

Anyway, I agree with the resistance to EE but I am neutral towards Ichigo having EE.

Also, Quincys are referred to as humans as well.

Remember that everyone that time where converted into souls, since they where on SS

 

[KazuiK]

Remember that everyone that time where converted into souls, since they where on SS

I had forgotten that detail

 

[SilentBob34]

Again, that's not renji

Also just wanna ask, isn’t it a thing you have to actively do? Like when Yama exerted his reiatsu and made Nanao start foaming at the mouth or when Aizen exerted his reiatsu and made Grimmjow fall to his knees? Aizen erases things because he’s a type of guy who doesn’t give a shit about other lives. Why would Ichigo wanna exert his reiatsu and erase one of his good friends or a couple of Quincy girls he just met and knew they weren’t a threat?

Ichigo can control his spirit energy so I don’t see how using those examples are good

 

[TOAAPRESENCE1]

Also just wanna ask, isn’t it a thing you have to actively do? Like when Yama exerted his reiatsu and made Nanao start foaming at the mouth or when Aizen exerted his reiatsu and made Grimmjow fall to his knees? Aizen erases things because he’s a type of guy who doesn’t give a shit about other lives. Why would Ichigo wanna exert his reiatsu and erase one of his good friends or a couple of Quincy girls he just met and knew they weren’t a threat?

Ichigo can control his spirit energy so I don’t see how using those examples are good

Yes, people that can control their reiatsu are able to control the output of SC, and they can even directly target a single person like aizen did with grimmjow, where he targeted only him and did not affect the other espada

 

[Reio35]

The kototsu is a spiritual being, it's heavily implied by isshin that it wasn't erased from existence as he could still feel its residual spirit energy despite aizen completely destroying its entire body.

True EE = ABSOLUTELY NOTHING is left behind

The kotosu is not a spiritual being it's the embodiment of the concept of reason.

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/856253462328639518/856577871803580456/2020-06-14_9.png

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

Hot take but it’s my headcanon that 99% of “erase you from existence” statements are just flowery language for “I’m gonna kill you”

 

[YukaSama4]

Hot take but it’s my headcanon that 99% of “erase you from existence” statements are just flowery language for “I’m gonna kill you”

im gonna EE the hell out of u

 

[Rebirth]

Bro don't make up stories

https://official-complete-2.eorzea.us/manga/Bleach/0407-016.png

So here are the two options fellas:

1. Gin's statement gets directly contradicted as isshin literally states that he can feel the cleaner's residual SPIRIT ENERGY and ichigo calls it "SPIRIT ENERGY on rails", implying that he sensed a vast amount of SE from it.

2. Gin's statement is just hyperbole/flowery language and serves to hype up the dangai cleaner as being an extremely durable being


I'll reiterate, if aizen truly had EE then there would be no residual energy leftover.

 

[YukaSama4]

1. Gin's statement gets directly contradicted as isshin literally states that he can feel the cleaner's residual SPIRIT ENERGY and ichigo calls it "SPIRIT ENERGY on rails", implying that he sensed a vast amount of SE from it.

2. Gin's statement is just hyperbole/flowery language and serves to hype up the dangai cleaner as being an extremely durable being


I'll reiterate, if aizen truly had EE then there would be no residual energy leftover.

There is no contradiction here, Gin and the databook both state that it's not from spiritual energy, Ichigo also said it's like spiritual energy on rails, it a simile, just like "you are like a lion", Isshin felt traces of spiritual energy, those are from Aizen not from the cleaner.
Gin's statement isn't hyperbolic lol, even Aizen didn't tell him that he is wrong and agreed with him.

No contradiction here

 

[Reio35]

https://official-complete-2.eorzea.us/manga/Bleach/0407-016.png

So here are the two options fellas:

1. Gin's statement gets directly contradicted as isshin literally states that he can feel the cleaner's residual SPIRIT ENERGY and ichigo calls it "SPIRIT ENERGY on rails", implying that he sensed a vast amount of SE from it.

2. Gin's statement is just hyperbole/flowery language and serves to hype up the dangai cleaner as being an extremely durable being


I'll reiterate, if aizen truly had EE then there would be no residual energy leftover.

Not sensing it's presence doesn't mean sensing it's spirit energy. He could sensing the vibrations or hearing it. Ichigo saying it's like spirit energy on rails does not mean it literally is.

Showed you a scan earlier from the databook saying the dangai based in spirit energy.

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

https://official-complete-2.eorzea.us/manga/Bleach/0407-016.png

So here are the two options fellas:

1. Gin's statement gets directly contradicted as isshin literally states that he can feel the cleaner's residual SPIRIT ENERGY and ichigo calls it "SPIRIT ENERGY on rails", implying that he sensed a vast amount of SE from it.

2. Gin's statement is just hyperbole/flowery language and serves to hype up the dangai cleaner as being an extremely durable being


I'll reiterate, if aizen truly had EE then there would be no residual energy leftover.

1. Nothing is hyperbole except your head canon.
2. He said he couldn't sense it's presence not spiritual energy get your point Correct.
3. Databook already backs up Gin statement.

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

Here is scans for when ichigo warned orihime to block his reastu.

 

[YukaSama4]

Tbh, there is no reason to remove it from Aizen, however, I can understand the hesitating in giving EE to Ichigo

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

Also here scan for ichigo always having his badge which supress his power.

 

[Rebirth]

There is no contradiction here, Gin and the databook both state that it's not from spiritual energy, Ichigo also said it's like spiritual energy on rails, it a simile, just like "you are like a lion", Isshin felt traces of spiritual energy, those are from Aizen not from the cleaner.
Gin's statement isn't hyperbolic lol, even Aizen didn't tell him that he is wrong and agreed with him.

No contradiction here

https://official-complete-2.eorzea.us/manga/Bleach/0407-015.png

^Here, the very first thing isshin notes is that he can't feel kototsu's presence, implying that he'd normally expect to detect its spirit energy, which makes sense as he was an experienced captain and likely used the dangai a lot.

Also isshin couldn't sense chrysalis aizen's energy so it'd absolutely make no sense for him to be able to sense post-chrysalis aizen's energy, hell this is even confirmed by isshin himself which is why he decided to train ichigo as he had the best chance of beating aizen since he could sense his SE:

https://official-complete-2.eorzea.us/manga/Bleach/0407-008.png

As such, the most likely explanation is that the residual spirit energy that isshin was talking about was kototsu's as we know in bleach that when you die your spirit energy doesn't instantly disappear and can linger around for some time before diffusing completely. This is shown when halibel could sense yammy's residual energy after he died in one of the novels (the one in Unmasked IIRC).



Btw I also offered the interpretation that gin's statement could've just been hyperbolic and thus there would be no conflict between what was said in the isshin/ichigo scene.

 

[Reio35]

post-chrysalis was suppressing himself so plp could feel his power. So it makes sense that isshin sensed him at that time. Isshin says with certain that aizen did it which means he sensed his spirit energy.

 

[Rebirth]

1. Nothing is hyperbole except your head canon.
2. He said he couldn't sense it's presence not spiritual energy get your point Correct.
3. Databook already backs up Gin statement.

1. Great rebuttal

2. Yet he deduced that it got destroyed/killed judging by the "TRACES of SPIRIT ENERGY" left over. It can't be aizen as he couldn't feel his energy in a weaker form and aizen only lowered his energy to troll ichigo's friends. If we were to apply occam's razor here it'd likely be in my favour as it requires the least amount of assumptions

3. That databook came out before the deicide arc so I'd just argue that the entry got contradicted/retconned.

 

[Rebirth]

post-chrysalis was suppressing himself so plp could feel his power. So it makes sense that isshin sensed him at that time. Isshin says with certain that aizen did it which means he sensed his spirit energy.

that was only when he entered the real Karakura town to troll ichigo's friends. He had no reason to lower it whilst he destroyed koto. In fact right before the koto scene isshin hypes up ichigo for being able to sense post-chrysalis aizen

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

https://official-complete-2.eorzea.us/manga/Bleach/0407-015.png

^Here, the very first thing isshin notes is that he can't feel kototsu's presence, implying that he'd normally expect to detect its spirit energy, which makes sense as he was an experienced captain and likely used the dangai a lot.

Also isshin couldn't sense chrysalis aizen's energy so it'd absolutely make no sense for him to be able to sense post-chrysalis aizen's energy, hell this is even confirmed by isshin himself which is why he decided to train ichigo as he had the best chance of beating aizen since he could sense his SE:

https://official-complete-2.eorzea.us/manga/Bleach/0407-008.png

As such, the most likely explanation is that the residual spirit energy that isshin was talking about was kototsu's as we know in bleach that when you die your spirit energy doesn't instantly disappear and can linger around for some time before diffusing completely. This is shown when halibel could sense yammy's residual energy after he died in one of the novels (the one in Unmasked IIRC).



Btw I also offered the interpretation that gin's statement could've just been hyperbolic and thus there would be no conflict between what was said in the isshin/ichigo scene.

Great fanfiction



Funny how you assume some character Statement is hyperbole just so you don't know the meaning of word "like" also how you are trying to ignore the fact it's backed up by databook.

 

[Rebirth]

Great fanfiction



Funny how you assume some character Statement is hyperbole just so you don't know the meaning of word "like" also how you are trying to ignore the fact it's backed up by databook.

that Imgur link isn't working on my end king

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

2. Yet he deduced that it got destroyed/killed judging by the "TRACES of SPIRIT ENERGY" left over. It can't be aizen as he couldn't feel his energy in a weaker form and aizen only lowered his energy to troll ichigo's friends. If we were to apply occam's razor here it'd likely be in my favour as it requires the least amount of assumptions

Some more assumption from your end.



So according to you Ichigo friends > isshin

3. That databook came out before the deicide arc so I'd just argue that the entry got contradicted/retconned.

Character statement and databook statement > your assumption.

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

that Imgur link isn't working on my end king

It's clearly working fine. Clear your history and try again

 

[Rebirth]

Some more assumption from your end.



So according to you Ichigo friends > isshin


Character statement and databook statement > your assumption.

Please layout your rebuttals in a coherent and detailed manner. Your past few "counters" have literally said nothing of substance at all lmao, when the hell did I imply ichigo's friends > isshin? Please elaborate so that I can respond and debunk it properly.

 

[Rebirth]

It's clearly working fine. Clear your history and try again

it's still not working. Just drop the translation of the scan you sent here

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

Please layout your rebuttals in a coherent and detailed manner. Your past few "counters" have literally said nothing of substance at all lmao, when the hell did I imply ichigo's friends > isshin? Please elaborate so that I can respond and debunk it properly.

You are the one who is going on about feeling Spiritual energy and not feeling spiritual energy. Ichigo friends can feel Aizen spiritual energy but according to you Isshin can't feel it? Isshin has more spiritual energy than any of Ichigo friends i think i don't need to elaborate that.

Also Isshin stated traces of spiritual energy what does that has to do with him not feeling Aizen spiritual energy before.

Aizen couldn't be felt because his spiritual energy was greater than others but ichigo can still feel him. Your refusal doesn't even make sense. Isshin statement definitely referring to Aizen spiritual energy otherwise it doesn't make sense.

Gin and databook already backs up Cleaner is not a being of spiritual energy.

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

Please layout your rebuttals in a coherent and detailed manner. Your past few "counters" have literally said nothing of substance at all lmao, when the hell did I imply ichigo's friends > isshin? Please elaborate so that I can respond and debunk it properly.

Let me put it like this when Aizen fought Isshin he couldn't feel Aizen spiritual energy because Aizen had more spiritual energy.

When Aizen destroyed cleaner his reastu was left there as traces.

Also why shouldn't Isshin feel traces of spiritual energy left by Aizen? If Aizen can lower his spiritual energy anyone can feel him.

Aizen leaving some amount of reatsu when destroying Cleaner can be felt by others it's not a big deal.

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

Anyway I am not good with English I hope you understand what I am trying to say.



Check the last two scans Isshin clearly states Cleaner can't be container with SS. If it's just based on spiritual energy Mayuri or anyone would have done many experiments or anything to try to control it.

 

[YukaSama4]

^Here, the very first thing isshin notes is that he can't feel kototsu's presence, implying that he'd normally expect to detect its spirit energy, which makes sense as he was an experienced captain and likely used the dangai a lot.

You are trying to force your understanding into the text that contradicts Gin's clear statement and then give us 2 options that dont make any sense, this isnt how you solve the conflict between statements, if there is another valid understanding to the text, that doesnt create any contradiction that would happen at the same chapter which doesnt make anysense because Kubo isnt dumb, then that understanding is correct, Isshin wasnt talking about the cleaner there, he couldnt felt its presence but there were traces of spiritual pressure in Dangai, he never said those traces are for the cleaner.

Also isshin couldn't sense chrysalis aizen's energy so it'd absolutely make no sense for him to be able to sense post-chrysalis aizen's energy, hell this is even confirmed by isshin himself which is why he decided to train ichigo as he had the best chance of beating aizen since he could sense his SE

We all know that Aizen after leaving the LW was just toying, the second scene for him after destroying the cleaner was in Karakura when a human tried to come close and got destroyed where he said "humans cant sense my power because they dont have spiritual energy" and later Tatsuki could feel his SP many times.

Btw I also offered the interpretation that gin's statement could've just been hyperbolic and thus there would be no conflict between what was said in the isshin/ichigo scene.

That interpretation would be correct if there isnt a way to avoid the conflict of the statements from the beginning, you made an interpretation that will either mean one between Gin and Isshin is stupid or Gin's statement was hyperbolic, while you could avoid that from the beginning if you understood it properly, Isshin couldnt feal its presence, but there were traces of Reiatsu there in Dangai so that means someone has done sth here, why Isshin didnt think that it wasnt here for some other reason? Why did he came to the conclusion that Aizen destroyed it? Basically because he felt traces of Reiatsu and we know the cleaner isnt a spiritual energy being meaning someone else has done something wrong here.
You are saying that both Gin and the databook were using hyperbolic statements which is very unlikely

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

Great fanfiction



Funny how you assume some character Statement is hyperbole just so you don't know the meaning of word "like" also how you are trying to ignore the fact it's backed up by databook.

it's still not working. Just drop the translation of the scan you sent here

藍染は、己の力が理さえ凌駕することを誇示するため、時間と空間を司る"拘突"を容赦なく破壊する。

"To demonstrate that his power surpasses even reason, Aizen mercilessly destroys the "Kōtotsu" that governs space-time."

 

[Rebirth]

You are the one who going on about feeling Spiritual energy and not feeling spiritual energy. Ichigo friends can feel Aizen spiritual energy but according to you Isshin can't feel it? Isshin has more spiritual energy than any of Ichigo friends i think i don't need to elaborate that.

Also Isshin stated traces of spiritual energy what does that has to do with him not feeling Aizen spiritual energy before.

Aizen couldn't be felt because his spiritual energy was greater than others but ichigo can still feel him. Your refusal doesn't even make sense. Isshin statement definitely referring to Aizen spiritual energy otherwise it doesn't make sense.

Gin and databook already backs up Cleaner is not a being of spiritual energy.

1. Aizen literally states in his battle against ichigo that he purposefully lowered his energy so that fodder beings can sense him and the panel kubo uses for this is tatsuki freaking out. HE ONLY LOWERED HIS ENERGY TO MENTALLY TORTURE HIS FRIENDS. Them feeling butterflaizen's energy would just mean that he was suppressing it to below even his chrysalis form, simple:

https://official-complete-2.eorzea.us/manga/Bleach/0413-011.png

https://official-complete-2.eorzea.us/manga/Bleach/0414-016.png

https://official-complete-2.eorzea.us/manga/Bleach/0420-014.png

2. It's simple:

isshin couldn't sense chrysalis aizen's energy
Aizen evolves even higher and ichigo is the only one who can sense his energy so isshin rushes to get him trained up
Aizen specifically lowered his SE in order to troll ichigo's friends
Therefore it's more probable that he was referring to kototsu when he said "Traces of spirit energy" as aizen wasn't perceptible to him and aizen didn't use an energy beam attack that leaves residue like a cero or getsuga

3. Ichigo being able to sense aizen is irrelevant unless you can prove isshin scales to that ichigo, which you can't as we know that the ability to sense transcendent beings is entirely based on the observer's power level relative to the person they're trying to sense

4. Gin and databook can be contradicted/retconned

 

[YukaSama4]

Gin and databook can be contradicted/retconned

Oh boy

 

[Rebirth]

You are trying to force your understanding into the text that contradicts Gin's clear statement and then give us 2 options that dont make any sense, this isnt how you solve the conflict between statements, if there is another valid understanding to the text, that doesnt create any contradiction that would happen at the same chapter which doesnt make anysense because Kubo isnt dumb, then that understanding is correct, Isshin wasnt talking about the cleaner there, he couldnt felt its presence but there were traces of spiritual pressure in Dangai, he never said those traces are for the cleaner.

We all know that Aizen after leaving the LW was just toying, the second scene for him after destroying the cleaner was in Karakura when a human tried to come close and got destroyed where he said "humans cant sense my power because they dont have spiritual energy" and later Tatsuki could feel his SP many times.


That interpretation would be correct if there isnt a way to avoid the conflict of the statements from the beginning, you made an interpretation that will either mean one between Gin and Isshin is stupid or Gin's statement was hyperbolic, while you could avoid that from the beginning if you understood it properly, Isshin couldnt feal its presence, but there were traces of Reiatsu there in Dangai so that means someone has done sth here, why Isshin didnt think that it wasnt here for some other reason? Why did he came to the conclusion that Aizen destroyed it? Basically because he felt traces of Reiatsu and we know the cleaner isnt a spiritual energy being meaning someone else has done something wrong here.
You are saying that both Gin and the databook were using hyperbolic statements which is very unlikely

Very well, I may have to concede to the 1st and 3rd point. So wouldn't this mean that isshin got a massive amp since gin wasn't confident that post-chrysalis aizen could beat koto despite him witnessing a weaker aizen neg isshin? If isshin genuinely could sense post-chrysalis aizen's SP (non-lowered to fodder human level) then why would he care so much about ichigo being able to sense him that he went out of his way to train him rather than himself?