Bleach Extra Speed Calculations

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

I agree.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

Ok so we agree to keep the 3 second timeframe for now.

Next something damage mentioned is that for the Aushwalen beam to just use the distance instead of 2x the distance. Why did we originally use 2x the distance and what’re the arguments for and against it. This would affect the Liltotto and Auswahlen calc (just doubling what they appear on my blog post).

 

[AnonymousBlank]

Auswhalen has to go down to Seireitei and come back up with the Zero Squad staring right at Yhwach and not doing anything in response at all. I personally would push for 1 sec since the big bad they are meant to murder is out here using a tech but none of them are able to do anything before the beam hits the Ritters in Seireitei and rezzes the SS 6 meters away from them.

 

[TOAAPRESENCE1]

I agree with the 1 sec due to how fast it was

 

[Ovy7]

Honestly, 1s for Auschwahlen sounds fair considering the context for it. Otherwise it would mean Oetsu is an idiot for taking his sweet time while looking at Yhwach doing his thing (while a minute prior he was blitzing and going ham on the Elites).

 

[Damage3245]

@Ovy7; or he just stopped attacking him because he wanted to see what Yhwach was doing...

It doesn't mean the entire process took place over a single second.

We also literally just agreed to keep the timeframe at 3 seconds until the anime can provide some clarification, so we're not changing it so you can increase the results up even further.

 

[AnonymousBlank]

Okay but why would he do that? He just got done killing these guys, was gung ho about doing the same to Yhwach and now he is gonna patiently wait for Yhwach to shoot down at Seireitei, see the beam come back up and hit his victims where they get enveloped in energy and back on their feet?

 

[Damage3245]

Okay but why would he do that? He just got done killing these guys, was gung ho about doing the same to Yhwach and now he is gonna patiently wait for Yhwach to shoot down at Seireitei, see the beam come back up and hit his victims where they get enveloped in energy and back on their feet?

You're talking about him "patiently waiting" as if isn't just observing his enemy for a few seconds, to see what he's doing.

Also, you're ignoring that he literally did watch the Elites all get back up on their feet and get ready to fight without intervening. So him waiting a few seconds, just to see what Yhwach is going to do, isn't unbelievable.

 

[AnonymousBlank]

There is a big difference between a beam “instantly” travelling and resurrecting your opponents and a beam that you can see leave, come back and then resurrect your opponents.

Oetsu saw his hands light up, wondered if he was gonna deflect the attack or get hit by it. His solution was to lop off Yhwach’ arms when he released the light before it pans out to show the light already fire, when it cuts back, Oetsu still hasn‘t moved despite his plan (the last time we saw) being to immediately go for Yhwach’s arms yet he still hasn’t moved by the time we see him again. Instead we see him shook because the SS are getting up.

This means they started getting up before he attacked and since they are only getting up because of Auswhalen, the conclusion is that Auswhalen happened “instantly” ergo 1 second.

 

[Damage3245]

Everything I said still stands. Just because he didn't attack doesn't mean we have to assume that only a second passed.

This is like a question of "Why don't fictional characters do things perfectly, in an as quick a time as physically possible?"

Also, Oetsu's plan being to cut Yhwach's arm doesn't mean he was planning to rush at him at that moment and cut off his arm. He may have been waiting for Yhwach to make the first move and then counter-attack him.

Anyway, we already reached a compromise of using 3 seconds until the anime provides further clarification. I am not interested in debating this endlessly and increasing the feat to even higher results for no solid reason.

 

[AppleLord]

@Damage is correct on this. Oh-Etsu himself monologue about how he wanted to keep his distance since Yhwach wasn't going to go down easily. He even thought about cutting his limbs one by one first.

 

[TOAAPRESENCE1]

Seems like we agree to just use 3 seconds for the calcs at least till the anime comes out and we get a timeframe

 

[Axxtentacle]

Can’t we just use 1 second as a high end, 3 as a mid, and 5 as a low? I don’t see any reason as to why not. If other calcs use 3 and 1, i’d imagine that 1 being a high end, 3 being a mid, and 5 being a low is perfectly reasonable.

 

[TOAAPRESENCE1]

Can’t we just use 1 second as a high end, 3 as a mid, and 5 as a low? I don’t see any reason as to why not. If other calcs use 3 and 1, i’d imagine that 1 being a high end, 3 being a mid, and 5 being a low is perfectly reasonable.

The calcs where all using 1 as high end, 3 as mid and 5 as low

Then it was decided to use the 3 seconds one

So as we discussed on this thread we will still use the 3 seconds until the anime comes out and we get a timeframe

 

[Axxtentacle]

The calcs where all using 1 as high end, 3 as mid and 5 as low

Then it was decided to use the 3 seconds one

So as we discussed on this thread we will still use the 3 seconds until the anime comes out and we get a timeframe

Ok, well, I see no reason for this not to be the standard if the time frame is just depicted as “very fast”.

 

[Hasch]

So why don't we just use mach500 from Gin's Bankai to calc that distance?

 

[Damage3245]

So why don't we just use mach500 from Gin's Bankai to calc that distance?

We can't, because that speed has absolutely nothing to do with that distance.

You can't just take random speed values and apply it to a calculation for distance at a different part of the series.

That's effectively no better than using lightning speed, or light speed. Or using the value of Renji's FTL calc. Or using the MFTL value that Ichigo scales to.

 

[Hasch]

We can't, because that speed has absolutely nothing to do with that distance.

You can't just take random speed values and apply it to a calculation for distance at a different part of the series.

That's effectively no better than using lightning speed, or light speed. Or using the value of Renji's FTL calc. Or using the MFTL value that Ichigo scales to

Yes it has something to do, Ichigo's shunpo is faster than Gin's Bankai which is canon mach500.


The other things are calcs, so it would be calcstalking, there's no comparison to a clearly stated in-universe speed. The lighning thing's problem is that it's not stable and varies because of atmosphere and this and that, mach500 is always 171.500 m/s


It would be far more accurate, no need to calc time or speed, just the distance, and there would be no inconsistency and can't be called outlier thanks to the multiple feats putting captain tiers in that general speed even before the last arc.


The distance would be 5.556.600 km with those canon values.

 

[AppleLord]

A normal shunpo user would cross a 7 day distance in 34.3 m/s, but Ichigo did it in 9 hours and 15 minutes.

What was the distance covered and how fast did Ichigo crossed that same distance?

A.) 500 meters and 100 m/s

B.) 20744640 meters and 26.67778 m/s

C.) Calc-stalking and Math don't mix.

With the speed of sound we get a 266716800 m distance.

 

[Hasch]

I don't understand your point.

 

[Damage3245]

Me neither to be honest.

But anyway, Gin's Bankai speed cannot be used. Ichigo's Shunpo is never stated to be faster than that, and you'd be applying a speed from a totally different point in the series to Ichigo's travel speed.

 

[Hasch]

But anyway, Gin's Bankai speed cannot be used. Ichigo's Shunpo is never stated to be faster than that, and you'd be applying a speed from a totally different point in the series to Ichigo's travel speed.

But we do see he is faster so no need for a statement, being from a diferent point is irrelevant since is everything in the same continuity.

The only way being in a different point in the story would be a problem is if it happened after, as it is we are just talking about the same character that moved at mach 500+ taking 9 hours to do something.

 

[Ovy7]

The 1 week trip with regular Shunpo isn't based on some rando's Shunpo but on Ichigo's regular Shunpo.

Spoiler

"Use regular Shunpo and it would take you about a week."

That's why Ichigo replies with: "If it takes a week using regular Shunpo, then if I hurry the hell up it'll only take me half a day".

Honestly, I don't know where the notion that Kirinji was talking about some rando's Shunpo comes from.

 

[Dangai_Ichigo]

So it would take the previous Ichigo a week to do this but he current Ichigo can do it in 9 hours

 

[AppleLord]

The 1 week trip with regular Shunpo isn't based on some rando's Shunpo but on Ichigo's regular Shunpo.

Spoiler

"Use regular Shunpo and it would take you about a week."

That's why Ichigo replies with: "If it takes a week using regular Shunpo, then if I hurry the hell up it'll only take me half a day".

Honestly, I don't know where the notion that Kirinji was talking about some rando's Shunpo comes from.

That is interesting because Ichigo's regular shunpo blitzes > Candice lightning, which means he went faster, making the distance longer. Casual Liltotto > Candice lightning < Auswhalen < serious Liltotto < casual Ichigo.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

Out of curiosity and because I forget, what was the problem with this line of thinking:

True Shikai Ichigo >= Post-Dangai Ichigo > God Aizen > Transcendent Aizen > All feats from Shinigami and Hollow we’ve seen prior to the Deicide Chapters (aka Gin’s Mach 500 Bankai)

We have a statement for Gin’s Bankai and a statement that transcendent beings are above that. So we have a statement then that boils down to Ichigo is vastly above Mach 500 (which more so goes like TS Ichigo is on par if not greater than FGT Ichigo is greater than Aizen is above all Shinigami including Gin). You can get this all from statements too (I don’t know if the problem was perhaps using feats constituted calc stacking). Seeing how our chain of statements goes: “my sword can extend 500 times faster than the sound of this clap” -> “I’ve transcended the realms of all Shinigami and Hollow” -> “Ichigo is standing in a realm above I” -> “Ichigo you’ve regained that elevated state in which you defeated Aizen”

 

[Damage3245]

@Arc7Kuroi; the leap of: "Transcendent Aizen > All feats from Shinigami and Hollow we’ve seen prior to the Deicide Chapters (aka Gin’s Mach 500 Bankai)"

Nothing states Aizen's Shunpo speed is faster than how fast Gin can extend and contract his Bankai. You can make up your own interpretations about "I’ve transcended the realms of all Shinigami and Hollow" but that's not proof.

 

[TOAAPRESENCE1]

"Nothing states Aizen's Shunpo speed is faster than how fast Gin can extend and contract his Bankai."

Yea, exept how he is superior to everyone in base exept for old man yama

 

[Damage3245]

"Nothing states Aizen's Shunpo speed is faster than how fast Gin can extend and contract his Bankai."

Yea, exept how he is superior to everyone in base exept for old man yama

Sure. I'm not saying Aizen's Shunpo can't be faster than Gin's Shunpo.

But you're comparing two different things here.

It's like saying Aizen's sword has to be longer than Gin's Zanpakuto because he's transcended the realm of Shinigami.

 

[Ovy7]

Base Aizen was already going FTE to Bankai Ichigo, and Chrysalis Aizen was far faster than those who were previously equal to him, soooooo......

 

[Hasch]

Sure. I'm not saying Aizen's Shunpo can't be faster than Gin's Shunpo.

But you're comparing two different things here.

It's like saying Aizen's sword has to be longer than Gin's Zanpakuto because he's transcended the realm of Shinigami.

No, it's Aizen speed vs Gin's Bankai speed, Aizen being faster.


There's no need for trascendental talk, a weaker Ichigo moved faster than mach 500, no other character needed aside from maybe Aizen.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

@Arc7Kuroi; the leap of: "Transcendent Aizen > All feats from Shinigami and Hollow we’ve seen prior to the Deicide Chapters (aka Gin’s Mach 500 Bankai)"

Nothing states Aizen's Shunpo speed is faster than how fast Gin can extend and contract his Bankai. You can make up your own interpretations about "I’ve transcended the realms of all Shinigami and Hollow" but that's not proof.

Ok, I mean Aizen is by far and large one of the most intelligent people in the series. Can you prove that A) he’s not aware of the current Gotei 13’s capabilities and B) that transcending all Shinigami doesn’t mean he’s above them?

Sure. I'm not saying Aizen's Shunpo can't be faster than Gin's Shunpo.

But you're comparing two different things here.

It's like saying Aizen's sword has to be longer than Gin's Zanpakuto because he's transcended the realm of Shinigami.

I think this is a bit of a false equivalency as it’s quite obvious that what Aizen was seeking was raw power. Hell he even discarded KS because he valued raw statistics above it. In the context of the narrative, transcendence applies solely to statistics here. Even Yhwach refers to Ichigo’s transcendence as “elevated power” because by saying transcendence means Aizen’s sword has to be longer than Gin’s relies on the assumption that bigger is better. And as Isshin pointed out against grand fisher “it’s not the the size of the wave but the motion of the ocean that counts” or something similar.

 

[Damage3245]

@Hasch; we're still not going to use it. That brings us right back onto the issue of hiding calc stacking. Read the Calc Stacking page and the section on "Hiding Calculations".

 

[Hasch]

@Hasch; we're still not going to use it. That brings us right back onto the issue of hiding calc stacking. Read the Calc Stacking page and the section on "Hiding Calculations".

Can never be calc stalking because mach500 isn't from a calc or assumption, it's a stated speed.

Hiding Calculations​

Hiding calculations is the practice of trying to avoid calculating a feat in order to be able to use the result in another calculation. In other words it is the practice of trying to fool people into not noticing that calc stacking is being used.

This usually occurs if a feat is quantified per a rule of thumb instead of precisely calculated. A typical example would be a character dodging a bullet from a short distance being ranked as "Supersonic" and then using that ranking to calculate the speed of another character, whose speed one can compare to the former in some feat.

While it is acceptable to rank a character by such a self-evident feat without a calculation, one should keep in mind that the unwritten calculation is only skipped due to being trivial, but is still the justification for the ranking. Hence calc stacking will still be an issue for such feats.

 

[Damage3245]

@Hasch; you've quoted the exact reason why it is problematic. I've had to explain this topic so many times in Bleach threads over the past couple months, I am really not interested in having to do it again.

 

[Hasch]

@Hasch; you've quoted the exact reason why it is problematic. I've had to explain this topic so many times in Bleach threads over the past couple months, I am really not interested in having to do it again.

I showed why it doesn't fit "Hiding Calculations", you can't agree to calc the distance based on a speed from fan calcs (mach1) and not agree to a distance calc based in canon statements (mach500)

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

Ya know damage as a staff member it’s your job to educate people on this kind of stuff. It’s possible Hasch wasn’t here for those times, or perhaps your explanations don’t align with the pages of vsbw to the point where people aren’t satisfied dropping it. That’s not gonna change as new people continue to roll into this site. Refusal to explain is plain negligence.

 

[Hasch]

I mean, the calced mach 1 speed was OK, but the canon stated speed is not?

 

[Damage3245]

@Hasch; the Mach 1 speed wasn't calced, and it was to do with the actual feat itself.

Gin's Bankai statement is irrelevant to the travel feat.

@Arc7Kuroi; I understand, but please try and understand my frustration with this topic as well.

To be honest, since we're still actually waiting for the distance to be resolved in the Calc Group Member's thread, this CRT cannot proceed. Until the other thread is concluded, I will temporarily close this CRT.

Hopefully DT will respond soon over there.

 

[Damage3245]

Thread is reopened as we've reached a conclusion on the Calc Group Member's thread.