Bleach Distance Calculation Issue

[Damage3245]

This thread concerns the distance between the Seireitei in the Soul Society, and the Soul King’s palace. Two distant locations that have no solid distance statement for how far apart they are but do have some statements / feats for travel between them.

Since this is a controversial topic, I would like to remind everyone that this thread is primarily for Calc Group Members and other knowledgeable members of staff. If anybody has any relevant information concerning this topic, please share it with me on my message wall.

Statements

We are given a statement from one of the Zero Division members that if Ichigo uses a “regular Shunpo” from the Soul King’s palace that he should arrive at Soul Society in a week, and this statement is given after he provides a lengthy set of spiral stairs for Ichigo to travel down.

Ichigo declares that if it takes a week using regular Shunpo then if he "hurries like hell" it will only take him half a day. This is later proven true:

• The Quincy Invasion begins at 5 PM.
• Ichgio starts travelling three hours after the invasion begins.
• Ichigo crash-lands in Seireitei at 5:15 AM.

Essentially meaning it took Ichigo 9 hours, 15 minutes to complete his journey.

Issues

The primary issue is that we don't have a stated speed for Ichigo's journey. Our requirements under the calc stacking page say this:

Using a reliable stated timeframe and reliably stated speed something travels during that timeframe one can calculate the distance travelled. Said distance can then usually be used for calculations. (Take heed that paths don't need to be straight and that speed reliably has to be constant)

We don't have a reliably stated speed to work with, even if we do have a reliable timeframe. Some people have tried to use assumptions like "Ichigo must be lightning speed, because he fought lightning-using characters after this and reacted to lightning-speed attacks", but this has issues as it is an entirely separate feat and trying to use this assume speed is not allowed as per the Calc Stacking page guidelines here:

Hiding calculations is the practice of trying to avoid calculating a feat in order to be able to use the result in another calculation. In other words it is the practice of trying to fool people into not noticing that calc stacking is being used.

This usually occurs if a feat is quantified per a rule of thumb instead of precisely calculated. A typical example would be a character dodging a bullet from a short distance being ranked as "Supersonic" and then using that ranking to calculate the speed of another character, whose speed one can compare to the former in some feat.

While it is acceptable to rank a character by such a self-evident feat without a calculation, one should keep in mind that the unwritten calculation is only skipped due to being trivial, but is still the justification for the ranking. Hence calc stacking will still be an issue for such feats.

While Ichigo's feats are fine to rate him by, it is not something that can be used for this calc.

Possible Solutions

So what can we do with minimal assumptions from the statements we have? Well, Ichigo near the beginning of his journey appears to break the sound barrier as he hurries down there. So as a baseline we could assume supersonic speed for Ichigo's travel, and use the 9 hours, 15 minutes timeframe for a distance of: 11421900 m = 11421.9 km

We could also go off of Tenjiro's statement that a week's travel time with Shunpo would get you there. Shunpo is a technique that is frequently used for FTE travel over short distances. Unfortunately no exact speed is stated for it, or for Ichigo's speed with it. Assuming baseline FTE speed (which is 34.3 m/s on the Speed page), for 1 week's duration, that would get a distance of: 20744640 m = 20744.64 km. Remember this is also likely factoring in the staircase into it as well instead of just being a straight line downwards.

USklaverei has created his own calculation for Ichigo's descent which involves using a size calculation for the Seireitei, calculating the speed Ichigo used to cross it, and then calculating Ichigo's acceleration (assuming he accelerated constantly the entire journey). This produces a total distance of: 1686000000 m = 1686000 km. My biggest concerns with this calculation is that it involves calc stacking, and it relies on stacking on another distance calculation for the Seireitei's size which I have some objections to.

Another option - my preferred one - is to simply not calculate the distance at all, and scale the verse without it like we're currently doing. The results we get from being conservative are extremely low and not reflective of Ichigo's true speed. The latter results procured from calc stacking predictably lead to inflated results.

I'd like the opinions from other Calc Group Members as to whether these possible solutions are reasonable, or if there are alternative suggestions.

 

[Hasch]

The obvious solution is mach1 x 7 days, since shunpo has to be faster than real life high jumps, or Ichigo's speed from this calc

 

[Zoro21043]

bump

 

[Damage3245]

@Hasch; Mach 1 wouldn't really have any correlation to "real life high jumps." If that was the basis you wanted to use, you'd be better off using human freefall speed for the 1 week timeframe.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

I think we should do this:

Ichigo's vi = 343m/s at least since he broke the sound barrier.

His robes can ignore friction from the barriers that Yhwach can't even break, meaning air resistance is likely negligible. The purpose of the robes ignoring any friction at all is to keep Ichigo from being slowed down on his dissent. Plus Ichigo is also accelerating himself, which further supports that in combination with his own force and robes, air resistance can be ignored.

His acceleration then is at least GM/r^2, where r = (x + 6.371E6) because the acceleration when Ichigo is at the surface (x = 0) is 9.8m/s^2 and x is the distance from the surface, M is the mass of Soul Society = mass of Earth, and G is the gravitational constant. I use this for acceleration because Ichigo is far enough away where it shouldn't be treated as constant.

The time frame is 9.25 hours = 33300 seconds.

x is the distance Ichigo travelled.

x = vit + .5at^2 -> x = 343(33300) + .5[(6.674E-11)(5.972E24)/(x + 6.371E6)^2](33300)^2 -> x = 6.06376E7 meters

This has no calc stacking and considers a safe value for Ichigo's acceleration given what we know (his acceleration could be far higher but shouldn't be much lower if it was any lower).

Edit: Changes to the speed calcs from USklav with this value are;

• Mimihagi: .067c (Sub-Rel+)
• Yhwach's death beam: .067c (Sub-Rel+)
• Yhwach's Auswahlen: .135c (Rel)
• Lille Plummets: .02c (Sub-Rel)
• Liltotto dodge's Auswahlen: .101c (Rel)

 

[Damage3245]

That is interesting. If any calc group members could check out the proposed method up above and verify if it is valid, I would appreciate it.

@DontTalkDT; @DemonGodMitchAubin; @Wokistan; @DMUA; @Therefir.

EDIT: I don't know how much of an impact it would have, but the robes don't ignore friction - they just protect the wearer from it.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

Lmao I both love and hate that I apply my astrophysics major to my weebery.

 

[Ovy7]

Don't worry, it's all for the greater good.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

EDIT: I don't know how much of an impact it would have, but the robes don't ignore friction - they just protect the wearer from it.

Well if the robes protect Ichigo from the friction, then it's safe to say the friction isn't impeding Ichigo. Plus Ichigo would be accelerating himself, so technically our forces are: gravity, air friction, Ichigo. And with the robes I argued that it's likely that the acceleration of Ichigo at least cancels out the acceleration of air friction, coupled with the robes protect from friction.

 

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

Why don't we just calc the distance using Ichigo's real Massively FTL speed?

 

[Damage3245]

@Arc7Kuroi; Can you explain how you got the 6.06376E7 meters result?

I don't see how you get to that figure from that formula.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

@Arc7Kuroi; Can you explain how you got the 6.06376E7 meters result?

I don't see how you get to that figure from that formula.

I used the solve function in my TI-89.

But you could use separation of variables if you hate yourself. If absolutely necessary I'll type out the derivation.

 

[Damage3245]

I'm getting the same result of 6.06376×10^7 meters myself in my calculator. If another CGM approves of the method, then it seems viable.

 

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

I think the method is fine

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

@Damage3245 I can update the sandbox with the characters who are affected by this calc and those that should scale and then drop it in a CRT to make sure there's no issues if you'd like. I'll also make a blog post for this distance calc so it can be added to the Bleach page.

 

[Damage3245]

Well the first thing that needs to happen is for the distance calculation to be put into a blog is it can be officially evaluated.

Then the other calcs need to be updated / put into a blog and official evaluated. I have an issue with the Auswahlen one which I'll need to double-check.

Then after those steps are done we can examine the ratings and make a CRT for it.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

Well the first thing that needs to happen is for the distance calculation to be put into a blog is it can be officially evaluated.

Then the other calcs need to be updated / put into a blog and official evaluated. I have an issue with the Auswahlen one which I'll need to double-check.

Then after those steps are done we can examine the ratings and make a CRT for it.

Aight I'll throw it in a blog then with the other updated calcs.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

Made the blog and posted it in the calc evaluation thread, but here it is again https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:Arc7Kuroi/Reiokyu_Distance_Calcs_Revised

 

[Damage3245]

I've left a comment about it on the thread - but at the moment the speed calculation that I think needs changing on there is the Auswahlen one (with the Liltotto one being impacted as a result).

It should just be 5 seconds for the beam going down, like the others, not 2.5 seconds.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

Corrected.

 

[USklaverei]

It doesn't have that, it was discussed and accepted that it is twice the distance and would use 3 seconds.

 

[Damage3245]

@USklaverei; when the CRT is created, that can be something we can discuss again.

Right now I think it would be unnecessary to use the doubled distance, and arbitrary to use 3 seconds instead of 5 seconds.

 

[USklaverei]

But this is what you think, but in the previous discussion it was taken into account that several staff members agreed with this.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

3 seconds was agreed as the middle ground between 5 3 and 1.

 

[Damage3245]

3 seconds was agreed as the middle ground between 5 3 and 1.

As I said, we can discuss this on the CRT.

Frankly I don't even know why 1 seconds is used in any of the calculations. That's such a highball it would be like trying to argue for 30 seconds for a lowball.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

As I said, we can discuss this on the CRT.

Frankly I don't even know why 1 seconds is used in any of the calculations. That's such a highball it would be like trying to argue for 30 seconds for a lowball.

Well my blog post is using the 3 second timeframe since that was agreed upon, if it's to be changed you're right that the discussion shall be saved for a CRT.

 

[Damage3245]

Okay. I will post the thread soon. I'll leave this thread open in case any other Calc Group Members want to chime in.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

Okay. I will post the thread soon. I'll leave this thread open in case any other Calc Group Members want to chime in.

Drop the thread in the general discussion once it's posted if ya don't mind.

 

[DMUA]

Sweet merciful lord why do you people keep trying to redo this over and over

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

Sweet merciful lord why do you people keep trying to redo this over and over

Because it keeps getting removed lol and without it our only speed feat in Bleach is a chapter 100ish Orihime calc and a Gin statement. The speed feat well is quite dry.

 

[DMUA]

it keeps getting removed

This doesn't happen for literally any other verse

if the feat's actually valid you shouldn't need 209103981309180392109832 different measurements for the same exact things happening

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

This doesn't happen for literally any other verse

if the feat's actually valid you shouldn't need 209103981309180392109832 different measurements for the same exact things happening

Lol I don't know what to tell you, I don't run the show round here.

 

[DMUA]

If there was someone running this show I'd punch them in the face

Frankly HST calcs just sound like an expression of the definition of insanity, one calc and maybe another recalc is never good enough it always has to be several thousands of blogs and discussions over the course of years with no real gain in information between each one

 

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

I am with this man, HST is in constant revisions and it’s way too annoying

 

[DMUA]

I wouldn't even care if I wasn't pinged on this thread

I get it's a helpful feature but I swear that thing tears a piece of my soul off and drags it to whatever hellhole people need help at supposedly

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

Revision because there is always 1 guy who wants the verse how they think it should be so they go ahead and change everything. Then another guy does it again. Plus HST is heavily scrutinized so there is ALWAYS some problem with whatever calc that's been accepted.

 

[DontTalkDT]

I think we should do this:

Ichigo's vi = 343m/s at least since he broke the sound barrier.

His robes can ignore friction from the barriers that Yhwach can't even break, meaning air resistance is likely negligible. The purpose of the robes ignoring any friction at all is to keep Ichigo from being slowed down on his dissent. Plus Ichigo is also accelerating himself, which further supports that in combination with his own force and robes, air resistance can be ignored.

His acceleration then is at least GM/r^2, where r = (x + 6.371E6) because the acceleration when Ichigo is at the surface (x = 0) is 9.8m/s^2 and x is the distance from the surface, M is the mass of Soul Society = mass of Earth, and G is the gravitational constant. I use this for acceleration because Ichigo is far enough away where it shouldn't be treated as constant.

The time frame is 9.25 hours = 33300 seconds.

x is the distance Ichigo travelled.

x = vit + .5at^2 -> x = 343(33300) + .5[(6.674E-11)(5.972E24)/(x + 6.371E6)^2](33300)^2 -> x = 6.06376E7 meters

This has no calc stacking and considers a safe value for Ichigo's acceleration given what we know (his acceleration could be far higher but shouldn't be much lower if it was any lower).

Edit: Changes to the speed calcs from USklav with this value are;

• Mimihagi: .067c (Sub-Rel+)
• Yhwach's death beam: .067c (Sub-Rel+)
• Yhwach's Auswahlen: .135c (Rel)
• Lille Plummets: .02c (Sub-Rel)
• Liltotto dodge's Auswahlen: .101c (Rel)

Pretty sure we had that proposal before....
For short, I don't think Ichigo completely and utterly ignores air resistance, so constant acceleration doesn't work, as terminal velocity still applies.

 

[Damage3245]

@DontTalkDT: I've been told by another calc group member that the best method listed in the OP is the first one, where Supersonic speed is assumed for the duration of the travel (9 hours 15 minutes), as it requires no calc stacking and the least amount of assumptions involved.

 

[AnonymousBlank]

The Mach 1 for 9:15 is definitely not the best option when Ichigo could fall for a week with terminal velocity and give a greater distance.

 

[DontTalkDT]

@DontTalkDT: I've been told by another calc group member that the best method listed in the OP is the first one, where Supersonic speed is assumed for the duration of the travel (9 hours 15 minutes), as it requires no calc stacking and the least amount of assumptions involved.

That has the problem that it assumes Ichigo couldn't have changed his speed during a 9 hour travel. That we don't assume such things is one of the reasons calc stacking exists.
Personally I'm still most on board with using terminal velocity for the entire distance.