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@Maxnumb231 off topic, take this discussion somewhere else. This isn’t a dragon ball thread
no its an example of what we use if we're gonna say transcending, outside, or detach from a 2-A cosmology to be low 1-C then other 2-A verse WHO also has this statements and yet being ignored from the past CRTs to be vague. It's called consistency, and it seems we're ignoring that there are verses the same way you are trying to upgrade and yet got denied before.
 
ultimately most staff me included agreed with low1C.
It's still about equal though? Since it's just you and Warren that ended up agreeing with Ultima, Matt still disagrees.

And i absolutely disagree with Ultima's line of thought here, he said "what you used to debunk it aren't necessarily all that true", despite using unlikely arguments for all of it. Leaving Low 1-C as less than possible, and let's just say that not only is it heavily unprofessional to give a verse a boost of infinity based on speculation but it is also something we do not do for other verses.

And @Maxnumb231 is correct. Bringing up other cases which were denied under such circumstances is a fair point to avoid double standards.

As @Blackcurrant91 also said: "Ultima was only arguing that not all of Earl's points necessarily100% debunk T1 but not that they prove it either". Ultima never gave any conclusive evidence for Low 1-C and some of his answers to my points were heavily based on speculation (like the "beyond the cauldron").
 
@Maxnumb231 if you wanna discuss this, make a CRT or Questions and Answers thread to argue this, this is not the thread for talking about another verse being tier 1, and this thread was already derailed to oblivion before, we don’t want another derailment.
 
Well, I have a hard time keeping track of all of the threads that I am currently following, so it is hard for me to remember which side of the argument that is most reasonable here, especially as I am feeling dizzy from overwork. Ultima usually knows what he is talking about though.
 
It does remove all weight from "transcendence" though. Just being "outside" doesn't give a higher dimensional tier. Since there is no more context on the transcendence part, there is pretty much no reason to assume "beyond" when they easily call it "outside". Transcendence can mean both, so at this point we would need proof of "beyond".
Not necessarily, when:

1) You are basically using an unrelated statement which in no way contradicts the disputed claim.

2) The claim in question ("The Boundary transcends [i.e is superior to, and encompasses] the multiverse") would already imply that it's outside of the universe anyway.

3) "Beyond" and "outside" are already effectively synonyms, so trying to base your argument off of some vaguely-defined distinction between the two doesn't really work.

Besides, I don't think anyone ever claimed that just being outside of the multiverse was enough for Low 1-C, anyway. The main argument was regarding The Boundary completely encompassing all universes, which would in turn corroborate the statements of transcendence over spacetime as referring to actual superiority. But I know you have some problems with this interpretation.

Yes but it is giving another very clear explanation of the "you can go to any universe from it". It doesn't directly say "it's not", but it does say that "it is not an argument for Low 1-C as it can easily be NOT Low 1-C and retain those effects".
If I may ask: Do you have any concept of "Supporting evidence"? I don't think the Boundary connecting all universes was ever one of the main arguments pushing for Low 1-C, and if it was the only one, then I would have definitely disagreed with the rating from the very start.

It could with some stretch as the last noun used is "the boundary", so "the boundary, beyond there ......". You would need more proof that the "beyond there" is referring to cauldron as the wording directly implies it's for the boundary (or both). So what's the argument for "it only refers to the cauldron even though it mentioned the boundary too".

and some of his answers to my points were heavily based on speculation (like the "beyond the cauldron").
It's not really speculation on my part, so much as basic-ass reading interpretation. The wording pretty explicitly says "Beyond there... I could go to another event," which implies that this process would involve reaching beyond some entry point and then traveling to an alternate universe, which makes perfect sense, given how The Boundary explicitly connects to all parallel universes based on the previous scans.

Your reading of the text would instead imply that it'd involve reaching into some (As far as I know) unmentioned place beyond The Boundary, and then going to another universe from there, which doesn't seem to be supported by the context of the statement. Therefore, it makes far more sense to take it as basically saying "I am going to step beyond the Cauldron and into the Boundary, and then use the latter to travel to another event," instead of "I am going to step beyond the Boundary and then go to another event from there."

Yes and as i've said your argument is "the closest definition" is practically speaking the furthest one from the truth? A parallel universe can't be the closest definition if we assume that the boundary is Low 1-C cus it is straight up a "wrong definition".
There is absolutely nothing stopping a universe from being higher-dimensional or transcendental in nature, especially given how all-encompassing the term is. So, no, calling the Boundary a parallel universe wouldn't really be the wrong definition, and "the closest definition" doesn't even have to be 100% accurate to reality, so much as it can just be the best approximation one can make in lack of better terms.

It wouldn't be separate if it's contained. It's like saying a house is a separate building from one of the rooms inside it.
You probably shouldn't compare the relation being a spacetime continuum and a space outside of it to something like two buildings that inhabit the same overall location: Spacetime isn't an individual object to be measured; it's the stage in which we do measurements to begin with, so, yeah, a realm that exists in no place or time within it could very much be described as separate.

And DontTalkDT actually used this argument once
That's cool, and I disagree with DontTalk, in this case.

That said, I don't exactly know the context in which he argued for that, so I'll refrain from saying anything too concrete, but it seemed like he was just saying that being stated to be from another dimension doesn't imply that you are from a higher dimension. The same argument doesn't really work when applied backwards: If something is described or otherwise implied to be a higher dimension or a higher plane of existence, then another statement describing it as another dimension doesn't really contradict that.

Ultima never gave any conclusive evidence for Low 1-C
Hm? Low 1-C is already an accepted rating in the profiles, and you are the one who is arguing for it to be removed; if I end up successfully countering all of the points made against it (As I am aiming to do here), then I don't exactly know what else you expect me to do. I really don't feel like playing tennis here, but the Burden of Proof does lie with whoever is challenging the status quo, you know.

Oh, and, by the way, you still haven't addressed how "events" being just non-physical, informational constructs which the Boundary contains is contradicted by one of the scans which you've posted yourself, which, again, treats them as actual locations that people can travel to: Parallel universes, as you argued there.
 
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Oh, and, by the way, you still haven't addressed how "events" being just non-physical, informational constructs which the Boundary contains is contradicted by one of the scans which you've posted yourself, which, again, treats them as actual locations that people can travel to: Parallel universes, as you argued there.
Considering how the boundary allows one to go to any point in time they desire it seems very plausible that the "i can go to a different event" is referring to the literal actual event. They can go to any point in time, in other words they can go to a certain event in time they want.

So i don't see how it being called an event is really debunking the "possibilities are just info not universes, they are just strictly connected to universes because there is a universe for every possibility", just like how pretty much every multiversal construct works (that is based on possibilities) including the multiversal theory iirc. Possibilities by definition are in no way related to universes, so you'd need some strong proof of "possibilities meaning universes" instead of just "they're tightly connected".

I won't go to some of the other points cus as you said this seems to be the main one, and you also agree that everything else is very opinion/interpretation and speculation based rather than factual proof. So if the "contains possibilities" is debunked i assume you will drop all the other points too (?)

As for DT, the case was:
The difference was described in a way that perfectly defines our "higher dimensional" transcendences. But the word used is "another dimension", and DT said "that is quite a problem".
 
Earl, actually bring proof of DT saying what you claimed he said. Like, I agree with you and all, but don't use other staff's words without even giving the source.
 
That whole “I can go to a different event” equating to mere time travel is bogus. The person who says that is literally thrown into an alternate timeline where everyone hates her existence, and is trying to go back to her own timeline. Claiming it was only mere time travel would add way too much questions than answers.
 
You literally said they’re going to any point in time. That’s the most basic definition of time travel.
 
What part of that remotely debunks Ultima’s point though?
That the event could refer to the actual "event" (the point in time of another universe), rather than the universe itself. Considering we have rachel and other things that refer to possibilities as what they actually are "possible future events".
 
There is no “point in time of that universe” that the scan is talking about. The person who said that was literally thrown into an alternate timeline and is trying to go back to her own timeline. That’s literally the entire context of the scene.
 
All staff members:

So should we go with Ultima's and Glassman's suggestions here?
 
Okay. Thank you for the reply.
 
Okay. That can probably be applied then.
 
Considering how the boundary allows one to go to any point in time they desire it seems very plausible that the "i can go to a different event" is referring to the literal actual event. They can go to any point in time, in other words they can go to a certain event in time they want.

So i don't see how it being called an event is really debunking the "possibilities are just info not universes, they are just strictly connected to universes because there is a universe for every possibility", just like how pretty much every multiversal construct works (that is based on possibilities) including the multiversal theory iirc. Possibilities by definition are in no way related to universes, so you'd need some strong proof of "possibilities meaning universes" instead of just "they're tightly connected".

That the event could refer to the actual "event" (the point in time of another universe), rather than the universe itself. Considering we have rachel and other things that refer to possibilities as what they actually are "possible future events".
That argument doesn't seem very relevant, given how "every event" is described as drifting within the Boundary, and that very scan would indicate that this includes events from alternate realities as well. Then again, there was no time travel between universes involved, based on what Glass said, so "event" does indeed seem to just refer to the alternate universe itself, as you seemed to be arguing for before doing a 180° turn.

Some other scans also seem to refer to alternate universes as "outcomes", so, again, arguing for a distinction between possibilities and universes seems like a meaningless thing to do.

Ah, I remember that thread. Yeah, it just seems like he was arguing that the scene wasn't actually talking about Iihiko having higher-dimensional power, hence why he talked about how it may have been just referring to "The ease of tearing paper, and not a higher-dimensional being seeing lower realities as drawings."

Although, the whole argument was very strange, given how he seemed to flip-flop between bringing up the possibility that the scans didn't actually refer to literal higher dimensions and then acknowledging that they were indeed referring to higher dimensions.
 
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Okay. Thank you. Tell me here when this thread should be closed.
 
Some other scans also seem to refer to alternate universes as "outcomes", so, again, arguing for a distinction between possibilities and universes seems like a meaningless thing to do.
Some scans do clearly state the opposite though. Referring to possibilities as simply future outcomes, hell even outright saying that "possibilities are the reason other worlds exist" rather than "possibilities are universes". So don't we run into some inconsistencies here?

I'll drop the last point as i guess it's you disagree with DT on that one.

Oh btw Ultima, regarding a point i believe you didn't adress. What about the existence of the edge? A place where time doesn't exist that exists between the universes and the boundary? Wouldn't the fact that there exists space (that's not part of the boundary) between the boundary and the worlds contradict it containing them all?
 
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Oh btw Ultima, regarding a point i believe you didn't adress. What about the existence of the edge? A place where time doesn't exist that exists between the universes and the boundary? Wouldn't the fact that there exists space (that's not part of the boundary) between the boundary and the worlds contradict it containing them all?
Yeah, I remember you mentioning that as an argument before. Well, I don't see how that's much of an issue, and even the name of the place already seems to point towards an answer: Just look at this drawing and then take the black disk/bean as the multiverse, the circle immediately around it as the Edge, and the outermost ring as the Boundary. It'd be still in-between the multiverse and the Boundary, even though the latter contains both. You even referred to the Edge as the space between universes yourself, no? That seems to further support what I'm saying

(Credits to Glass for the flawless artwork, by the way)
 
The 2nd one doesn't open for me, but i am already using the other 3. It's the reason im saying there are inconsistencies on the use of "possibilities".
 
What about the inconsistencies on the use of "possibilities"?
The scans which you've posted, as well as some which are on the blog, just seem to state that each possibility that doesn't come to be in the main universe is instantiated as another spacetime. Based on the scan which I've posted, then, the verse also seems to use these terms interchangeably with "universe", so I don't think there's much point in squabbling over what exactly "possibilities" refers to.

Even leaving that aside, the Boundary is already stated to contain every moment in time, alongside every "event," the latter of which in itself refers to alternate universes based on what was said above, and the fact that the novel excerpt even places the terms "event" and "possibility" side-by-side while describing what the Boundary contains seems to reinforce that. So, it wouldn't really matter.
 
just seem to state that each possibility that doesn't come to be in the main universe is instantiated as another spacetime
Doesn't that mean that they're not the same thing though? Cus possibilities are what gives birth to other universes rather than the universes themselves?
Based on the scan which I've posted, then, the verse also seems to use these terms interchangeably with "universe", so I don't think there's much point in squabbling over what exactly "possibilities" refers to.
I mean it creates inconsistencies on what the verse means by "possibilities" and "events".
 
what inconsistencies? They've always referred to possibilities as alternate timelines and universes.
 
Hammerstrikes219 is a nice and harmless but severely mentally ill guy that has been banned from the wiki for constantly derailing discussions. He has sent me recurrent messages for a few years afterwards though.
 
I'm pretty sure it isn't inconsistent? The possibilities are linked with the timelines and I don't think we could just dismiss what Kokonoe says too. I do believe ultima makes sense here with how the statements are pretty explicit. Also why in the world a different event is simply time travel when they get thrown into a completely different universe?
 
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