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yeah that's why I sent the scans so someone could translate them here?
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Black Clover
- Thread starter Worthless
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Also, @DaReaperMan , can you summarise the arguments for and against here, please?
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Honestly Ant? Don't really trust myself to paint the arguments for in the best light without bringing shit from the against side
I am not versed in the weeb language lol, pretty sure there's a list of translators somewhere lol"目が見えない"
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It said "i can't see" meaning invisible at least according to MTL
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BC characters don't affect “Concepts” in the traditional way. They affect concepts that were brought by certain types of magic, like Vanessa's Fate Magic or Nacht's Seal.
And from my understanding of BC they wouldn't be able to affect conceptual manipulation of someone with higher magic power.
Like, Lucifero is stated to be above "Fate", it doesn't mean he is actually above the concept of Fate, he is only above Vanessa's Fate Hax.
He and everyone else should have their Conceptual Manipulation modified. Like, instead of this:
And from my understanding of BC they wouldn't be able to affect conceptual manipulation of someone with higher magic power.
Like, Lucifero is stated to be above "Fate", it doesn't mean he is actually above the concept of Fate, he is only above Vanessa's Fate Hax.
He and everyone else should have their Conceptual Manipulation modified. Like, instead of this:
They should have something like this:
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- #89
lol i think you should read my all scans i have already proved that it's not just limited on magic and no it can't be overpowered through having more magical power what the hell are you talking broh lmao
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agree with limited concept manip disagree with the explanation. Having more magic than Vanessa's fate magic wouldn't allow you to modify or destroy her spell since characters such as the witch queen had more magic than her yet couldn't change the effects the spell had
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Also...
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The Witch Queen didn't have the ability to affect conceptual magic like Devils do.
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So basically it's not having more magical power it's having the ability to be able to interact/interfere with magic that effects concepts (which only lucifero and Lilith and naamnah have shown to do)
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I don't know where this is going i was just trying to give lucifero a full CM rating 
- First of all this is not just limited on magic, they can also manipulate and destroy the concept of said non magical stuffs such as rules and knowledge.
- And second the invisible and intangible statement I've already explained the thing regarding to it and also now looking at it again the one who said it is natch the invisible stuff, but whatever.
- But most of all this is not just a normal conceptual interaction lilith and namaah could destroy concept through burning and freezing it while morris could alter/change basically manipulate concept as he pleases while lucifero since he could do what Dante could do his should be warping concepts.
- First of all this is not just limited on magic, they can also manipulate and destroy the concept of said non magical stuffs such as rules and knowledge.
- And second the invisible and intangible statement I've already explained the thing regarding to it and also now looking at it again the one who said it is natch the invisible stuff, but whatever.
- But most of all this is not just a normal conceptual interaction
lilith and namaah could destroy concept through burning and freezing it while morris could alter/change basically manipulate concept as he pleases while lucifero since he could do what Dante could do his should be warping concepts.
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I think it's both.
Like, having the ability to affect conceptual magic, but also having enough magic power to overpower the user of that conceptual magic.
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I'd agree with that, but looking at the scans in the op you can see gray ( a person with much less magic than a devil host) interact and effects morris's magic. so I believe it's not having more magic but instead having the ABILITY to interact with it at all.
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Okay. I suppose that seems to be rather straightforward.
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Okay should they have it now
so i can sleep? however I'm leaning on full conceptual manipulation as i explained above it's not just limited on magic- 2,159
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his mana is the reason why morris can interfere with concept.
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a devil can give special abilities added to someone's magic that the devil already posseses. That's why Morris says that the "devil's" (lucifero) had made his magic effect invisible concepts
https://gyazo.com/048eeef302681f7a4f29141fa152e8fd
here he outright states that the devil's power allows him to interact with things that can't be touched
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As the dude said above but here is the feats he claimed several times that the reason why his magic can interfere with concepts is because of lucifero power
EldemadeDityjon
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This makes sense.
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I don't know if you are trolling or not but... lemme say this as someone who know BC better than him and you what he said doesn't even make any shit sense luci above fate? when? can overpowered conceptual manipulation through having more magical power than the said user of CM? when? only limited on magic? who said that
never did the manga said that and i have already proved that it's not only limited on magic... shit stupid in my perspective, i mean by BC perspective.
EldemadeDityjon
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I am not trolling. I am already read the series and upto date with latest Chapters also.I don't know if you are trolling or not but... lemme say this as someone who know BC better than him and you what he said doesn't even make any shit sense luci above fate? when? can overpowered conceptual manipulation through having more magical power than the said user of CM? when? only limited on magic? who said that
Everything already explained it better if you want. He makes more sense.
Anyway I am only disagreeing with this thread because it looks more of an NPI not actual concept manipulation.
Also can you post the scan where those non existent concept can't be interacted with Normal NPI and needs real conceptual manipulation to interact with them?.
I hope you understand what my point of view is saying. I am not against BC characters getting CM but i don't see difference between Normal NPI interaction and needing a special concepts type of interaction to interact with those invisible concept.
I hope my questions doesn't confuse you. Also don't get angry on everyone.
Everyone here is just asking for more scans and feats because you only posted two scan and saying they states they are concept so it should be Conceptual manipulation when we don't know if they can't be affected by normal NPI. If there are feats that they can't be interacted with NPI then yeah sure Or wait for some more chapters to get some more better information.
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You are 10000% lying what he said doesn't make any sense
I'm not repeating my argument destroying & altering concept is conceptual manipulation and nothingness & dream doesn't have a define shape god please stop bringing everything12 argument like the reason he said that is because my first explanation regarding to this feat look like a normal conceptual interaction
EldemadeDityjon
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I am really uptodate dude
Anyway. I would like to point out dream world can be interacted with yami dimensional Slash. I am not sure if that captains mock Battle can be considered anime canon or not. If it's not considered canon for now i don't have anything to say. I will try to make a better argument or if I can't i will agree with the CM upgrade.I'm not repeating my argument destroying and altering concept is conceptual manipulation and nothingness & dream doesn't have a define shape god please stop bringing everything12 argument like the reason he said that is because my first explanation regarding to this feat just look like a normal conceptual interaction
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Then where did you get the more magical power = resistance to conceptual manipulation??? lucifero = above fate???I am really uptodate dude
You do realize he can cut through dimensions right? and it's not even canon but... whatever i guess?
Sure go ahead however I'm sure you realized toO that trying to debunked the irrefutable fact is kinda funny is not it? Kinda looked like being in disbelief lol
It's like saying having the ability to alter or destroy soul is not soul manipulation
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But no one is altering or destroying concepts
EldemadeDityjon
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I don't remember making any of those claims
Cutting dimensions=|= concept manipulation ( yeah if it's not canon no use in arguing)
Soul manipulation and Conceptual manipulation are different things.It's like saying having the ability to alter or destroy soul is not soul manipulation
I don't want to bring other verses.
But I should point out Mahito from JJK can alter and destroy souls but it's not considered as conceptual manipulation( just giving example, don't take it in wrong way)
But I should point out Mahito from JJK can alter and destroy souls but it's not considered as conceptual manipulation( just giving example, don't take it in wrong way)
Anyway my point of view is it's NPI and NPI can be altered by normal abilities doesn't mean it needs Conceptual manipulation.
I hope you know souls are NPI too
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except they are.
natch created a world with concepts MISSING such as light,life and death. the devil's then proceeded to destroy said none physical space which DID not have the concepts of light, life or death as said so by natch himself, go as far as saying that the only concept inside said spell is shadows
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Mahito has never referenced destroying the CONCEPT of souls just literal different souls he interacts with
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Uhhhh, that's just light, life, and death manipulation. I see 0.000000% concept manip in that scan
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it's none of those things, he didn't manipulate light space or death he comepletly removed them from a specific area
which btw is the literal definition of
Concept Destruction: The ability to destroy or remove a concept. By using the ability concepts are removed from reality. This can be wide-spread or very targeted
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