𝔅lack ℭlover: Minor Scaling Fixes

[Arnoldstone18]

Welcome, there is some stuff to fix... more importantly, Megicula's fight. The fight against Megicula is my least favorite fight scaling-wise because I am a bc goon and I love to see my characters shine instead of fall. After reading the fight over and over again, and arguing with myself. I have made the final conclusion.
Megicula is a Supreme Devil and one of the Rulers of the Underworld that bodies everyone in that fight individually. The only way she lost was due to a collective effort. So nobody in that fight scales directly to Megicula.


NOELLE

Noelle was stomped lol. Let's not lie to ourselves.


CloverDragon's counter argument:

Disagree. She took many of Megicula's attacks and the only time she was "stomped" was when she used Valkyrie Dress instead of Spirit Dive due to Spirit Dive running out. Magic power-ups give the same boost to both attack and defense, that's how it's always been, and in the case of Spirit Dive especially it's always been this way. Noelle should be no different.
Plus, Megicula was stated by Liebe to require Devil Union to stand a chance against.

Agree:
Neutral:
Disagree: CloverDragon


LUCK

Luck doesn't scale directly to Megicula, he scales to half the AP value via a combined attack with Gaja that vaporized Megicula.

Agree: CloverDragon
Neutral:
Disagree:

CHARLOTTE

Her anti-curse briars absorb curses to negate or weaken them, making the briars themselves grow. She doesn't absorb the curse to make herself stronger.

Queen of Briars should just be treated as a stat-boosting transformation instead. "Varies" should be removed.

Agree: CloverDragon
Neutral:
Disagree:

NOZEL

I thought he scaled to Megicula, but after I read it one last time, I realize he doesn't.

A recuperating Megicula tanked his all-out attack. Nozel should get Durability Negation (and Elasticity?) instead because he can manipulate the flexibility of his steel to go into his target's wounds and implode them from the inside. However, he can block her attacks probably because they were weakened by Charlotte's Anti Curse briars directly below the scuffle.

I and CloverDragon's compromise after discussion:

Should scale to 100% Vanica's or downscale from Megicula. I would personally go for the downscale.

Agree: CloverDragon (Limited Durability Negation and Downscale from Megicula)
Neutral:
Disagree:

LUCIFERO

Resistance to Holy Manipulation should be removed. Yuno referred to Zenon's resistance to erosion and deconstruction when he said he couldn't cut Lucifero and NOT Saint Stage. When Saint Stage is used you will notice shiny stuff around the weapon or person at all times.

Agree: CloverDragon
Neutral:
Disagree:

---

That's all for now. I have an open mind so let's discuss.

 

[CloverDragon03]

NOELLE

Noelle was stomped lol. Let's not lie to ourselves.

Disagree. She took many of Megicula's attacks and the only time she was "stomped" was when she used Valkyrie Dress instead of Spirit Dive due to Spirit Dive running out

LUCK

Luck doesn't scale directly to Megicula, he scales to half the AP value via a combined attack with Gaja that vaporized Megicula.

CHARLOTTE

Her anti-curse briars absorb curses to negate or weaken them, making the briars themselves grow. She doesn't absorb the curse to make herself stronger.

Queen of Briars should just be treated as a stat-boosting transformation instead. "Varies" should be removed.

Agree with this, but it shouldn't be a hard rating for Charlotte. It should still be "up to [insert highest rating]" because it depends on the curse power of her opponent

NOZEL

I thought he scaled to Megicula, but after I read it one last time, I realize he doesn't.

A recuperating Megicula tanked his all-out attack. Nozel should get Durability Negation (and Elasticity?) instead because he can manipulate the flexibility of his steel to go into his target's wounds and implode them from the inside. However, he can block her attacks probably because they were weakened by Charlotte's Anti Curse briars directly below the scuffle.

I disagree. You can see the curse letters floating around Megicula, meaning she didn't tank it, she simply negated it with Decaying World. There were no wounds on Megicula for Nozel to exploit, rather this was simply his way of getting around Decaying World. It wouldn't really be durability negation.

LUCIFERO

Resistance to Holy Manipulation should be removed. Yuno referred to Zenon's resistance to erosion and deconstruction when he said he couldn't cut Lucifero and NOT Saint Stage. When Saint Stage is used you will notice shiny stuff around the weapon or person at all times. We should also give him resistance to sealing because Charlotte's curse had no effect on him. The restraints on Charlotte's roses grow tighter the more power the target displays until the target is sealed.

---

That's all for now. I have an open mind so let's discuss.

Agree on removing Resistance to Holy Manipulation, disagree on Resistance to Sealing. Charlotte's restraints depend on the target's curse power. Lucifero has no curse power because he doesn't use curse-related magic.

 

[Arnoldstone18]

Disagree. She took many of Megicula's attacks and the only time she was "stomped" was when she used Valkyrie Dress instead of Spirit Dive due to Spirit Dive running out

There is nowhere in the fight where she scales to Megicula in AP. If so lmk.

edit: if she took attacks then she scale Dura wise, that means I forgot that part.

Agree with this, but it shouldn't be a hard rating for Charlotte. It should still be "up to [insert highest rating]" because it depends on the curse power of her opponent

Does she really amp herself with her briars? I don't see any indication of that.

The only time where she was ever stated to be amped was due to Rill's magic boosting support spell immediately after Megicula commented on Charlotte's magic rising.

I disagree. You can see the curse letters floating around Megicula, meaning she didn't tank it, she simply negated it with Decaying World. There were no wounds on Megicula for Nozel to exploit, rather this was simply his way of getting around Decaying World. It wouldn't really be durability negation.

There is a whole rose garden directly below that fight. If she used decaying world Nozel's spells will vanish, but if you take a closer look you will see those curse runes healing her body from Luck and Gaja's combined attacks.

There is a gaping hole in Megicula's head and a few wounds from Luck and Gaja's attack that are nearly healed up for Nozel to exploit. There is also a clear statement from Megicula stating that Nozel's steel got into her blood.

Agree on removing Resistance to Holy Manipulation, disagree on Resistance to Sealing. Charlotte's restraints depend on the target's curse power. Lucifero has no curse power because he doesn't use curse-related magic.

I am neutral on charlotte because Charlotte says "The stronger the target, the more tightly the power of the curse binds them"... She makes no mention of the anti curse, rather she is talking about the original curse of her own briars that she just modified. From my perspective, this has nothing to do with whether the said target has "curse power" or not as it was not specified. Even Vanica stated she wanted to "shake it off right away" implying the use of physical strength.

I think this misconception stems from linking two feats into one.

So do you still think the target must have curse power for this to work? If not, no problem.

 

[CloverDragon03]

There is nowhere in the fight where she scales to Megicula in AP. If so lmk.

edit: if she took attacks then she scale Dura wise, that means I forgot that part.

Magic power-ups give the same boost to both attack and defense, that's how it's always been, and in the case of Spirit Dive especially it's always been this way. Noelle should be no different.

Plus, Megicula was stated by Liebe to require Devil Union to stand a chance against.

Does she really amp herself with her briars? I don't see any indication of that.

The only time where she was ever stated to be amped was due to Rill's magic boosting support spell immediately after Megicula commented on Charlotte's magic rising.

She gets stronger in response to stronger curse power. That's fundamentally how Queen of Briars works

There is a whole rose garden directly below that fight. If she used decaying world Nozel's spells will vanish, but if you take a closer look you will see those curse runes healing her body from Luck and Gaja's combined attacks.

There is a gaping hole in Megicula's head and a few wounds from Luck and Gaja's attack that are nearly healed up for Nozel to exploit. There is also a clear statement from Megicula stating that Nozel's steel got into her blood.

That whole rose garden can weaken the potency of Megicula's curses, that's literally its purpose. Hence, Megicula goes from negating spells to simply weakening them. And even if steel has gotten into her blood, that really just means he's able to attack her without being weakened by Decaying World. Also I really need to update Devil Physiology since Megicula's blood gets turned on her yet she's just fine, unless that falls under an ability she already has.

Also I will reiterate my point on magic as a power system indicating equivalent AP and durability.

I am neutral on charlotte because Charlotte says "The stronger the target, the more tightly the power of the curse binds them"... She makes no mention of the anti curse, rather she is talking about the original curse of her own briars that she just modified. From my perspective, this has nothing to do with whether the said target has "curse power" or not as it was not specified. Even Vanica stated she wanted to "shake it off right away" implying the use of physical strength.

I think this misconception stems from linking two feats into one.

So do you still think the target must have curse power for this to work? If not, no problem.

Yeah I still think this, because the way Queen of Briars works is that it absorbs the enemy's curse power to turn it into power. If there's no curse power to absorb, it's pretty much dead weight. And not only that, even if it implied the use of physical strength, that would be a lifting strength feat. Charlotte is Class 10. Lucifero is Class T. Do the math.

 

[Arnoldstone18]

Magic power-ups give the same boost to both attack and defense, that's how it's always been, and in the case of Spirit Dive especially it's always been this way. Noelle should be no different.

Plus, Megicula was stated by Liebe to require Devil Union to stand a chance against.

Neutral

Even though this is true, it was still easy to damage Noelle and she would've been helpless without Nozel. I am open to see what others think and I won't contribute to this point.

She gets stronger in response to stronger curse power. That's fundamentally how Queen of Briars works

We have discussed this on Discord.

But for everyone who doesn't know, these are the two things CloverDragon and I agreed on:

1. The Queen of Briar is a True Magic Transformation. It exists only to boost her stat, allowing her to use the true power of her Red Roses, which were limited by her blue rose curse.

2. Modified Briar Magic is a spell that grants Charlotte curse manipulation. This is a special Anti Curse that absorbs, weakens, and negates the power of curses placed on people or spells.

That whole rose garden can weaken the potency of Megicula's curses, that's literally its purpose. Hence, Megicula goes from negating spells to simply weakening them. And even if steel has gotten into her blood, that really just means he's able to attack her without being weakened by Decaying World. Also I really need to update Devil Physiology since Megicula's blood gets turned on her yet she's just fine, unless that falls under an ability she already has.

Also I will reiterate my point on magic as a power system indicating equivalent AP and durability.

But we can see that the runes are not on the spell but on her body. It also looks like her body has changed as a result of those runes on closer inspection. Due to these reasons, we can't assume decaying world was used.

Yes, Nozel did infuse steel in Megicula's blood and blew her up from the inside. That counts as limited durability negation because the target has to have a wound as a point of entry.

Again, I am neutral leaning towards disagreeing on if Nozel should scale to Megicula because Charlotte's roses weakens Megicula's curse-based spells and attacks, making it easier for Nozel to block them. I am also fine with your intepretation so I will throw it out to everyone else.

Yeah I still think this, because the way Queen of Briars works is that it absorbs the enemy's curse power to turn it into power. If there's no curse power to absorb, it's pretty much dead weight. And not only that, even if it implied the use of physical strength, that would be a lifting strength feat. Charlotte is Class 10. Lucifero is Class T. Do the math.

After further investigation, I believe Charlotte can also use the original function of her curse to bind and seal targets regardless of their Lifting Strength. Megicula states she used her power against her because all curses come from Megicula. So it's not Anti Curse, it's just curse manipulation. @CloverDragon03 what do you think?

Whatever your answer I won't comment further on that point and will leave it to everyone.

 

[CloverDragon03]

Neutral

Even though this is true, it was still easy to damage Noelle and she would've been helpless without Nozel. I am open to see what others think and I won't contribute to this point.

I don't really get what you mean by "easy to damage Noelle." Noelle wasn't trading blows with Megicula simply because Megicula was keeping Noelle at a distance. She was only really helpless at the very end because Megicula used Decaying World right when Noelle seemed to have gotten an opening.

We have discussed this on Discord.

But for everyone who doesn't know, these are the two things CloverDragon and I agreed on:

1. The Queen of Briar is a True Magic Transformation. It exists only to boost her stat, allowing her to use the true power of her Red Roses, which were limited by her blue rose curse.

2. Modified Briar Magic is a spell that grants Charlotte curse manipulation. This is a special Anti Curse that absorbs, weakens, and negates the power of curses placed on people or spells.

Yeah, so remove the Varies and just make Charlotte "At least Low 6-B, High 6-B with Queen of Briars"

Also explains why she used Queen of Briars against Lucifero, someone with no curse magic

But we can see that the runes are not on the spell but on her body. It also looks like her body has changed as a result of those runes on closer inspection. Due to these reasons, we can't assume decaying world was used.

Yes, Nozel did infuse steel in Megicula's blood and blew her up from the inside. That counts as limited durability negation because the target has to have a wound as a point of entry.

Again, I am neutral leaning towards disagreeing on if Nozel should scale to Megicula because Charlotte's roses weakens Megicula's curse-based spells and attacks, making it easier for Nozel to block them. I am also fine with your intepretation so I will throw it out to everyone else.

I think Nozel's scaling in terms of his tier should be the same, but the justification should be different, as while I agree that Megicula's curse attacks were weakened, I believe they're only somewhat weakened. They're still generally the same level of threatening to them, just a bit weaker. So Nozel would be unquantifiably below Megicula. If you really want to go as low as possible, he should not be below 100% Vanica or maybe he can downscale to baseline High 6-B+. I dunno

Regardless, the justification should be that he could block attacks from a somewhat weakened Megicula. Also I'm fine with Limited Durability Negation.

After further investigation, I believe Charlotte can also use the original function of her curse to bind and seal targets regardless of their Lifting Strength. Megicula states she used her power against her because all curses come from Megicula. So it's not Anti Curse, it's just curse manipulation. @CloverDragon03 what do you think?

Whatever your answer I won't comment further on that point and will leave it to everyone.

I just realized, does Charlotte ever actually try to seal Lucifero to begin with? I don't believe so, making this whole discussion pointless.

But regardless I stand by my point here. It's her Modified Briar Magic that's sealing Vanica to begin with, which would inherently be nowhere near as effective on Lucifero.

 

[Arnoldstone18]

I don't really get what you mean by "easy to damage Noelle." Noelle wasn't trading blows with Megicula simply because Megicula was keeping Noelle at a distance. She was only really helpless at the very end because Megicula used Decaying World right when Noelle seemed to have gotten an opening.

No problem.

Yeah, so remove the Varies and just make Charlotte "At least Low 6-B, High 6-B with Queen of Briars"

Also explains why she used Queen of Briars against Lucifero, someone with no curse magic

Yep

I think Nozel's scaling in terms of his tier should be the same, but the justification should be different, as while I agree that Megicula's curse attacks were weakened, I believe they're only somewhat weakened. They're still generally the same level of threatening to them, just a bit weaker. So Nozel would be unquantifiably below Megicula. If you really want to go as low as possible, he should not be below 100% Vanica or maybe he can downscale to baseline High 6-B+. I dunno

Regardless, the justification should be that he could block attacks from a somewhat weakened Megicula. Also I'm fine with Limited Durability Negation.

I think either 100% Vanica's or downscaling from Megicula is fine. I'll leave it up to others to decide which one

I just realized, does Charlotte ever actually try to seal Lucifero to begin with? I don't believe so, making this whole discussion pointless.

But regardless I stand by my point here. It's her Modified Briar Magic that's sealing Vanica to begin with, which would inherently be nowhere near as effective on Lucifero.

Actually no, now that i think about it.. So I will remove that.

 

[CloverDragon03]

I think either 100% Vanica's or downscaling from Megicula is fine. I'll leave it up to others to decide which one

Personally I prefer downscaling from Megicula, makes more sense justification-wise than "well he should be superior to 100% Vanica"

 

[Arnoldstone18]

No problem,


OP has been updated

 

[Nierre]

all these colors hurt

 

[Arnoldstone18]

okay I think I’ll add images so the colours aren’t so close together

 

[CloverDragon03]

Bump

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I agree with the things Clover agrees with.