• This forum is strictly intended to be used by members of the VS Battles wiki. Please only register if you have an autoconfirmed account there, as otherwise your registration will be rejected. If you have already registered once, do not do so again, and contact Antvasima if you encounter any problems.

    For instructions regarding the exact procedure to sign up to this forum, please click here.
  • We need Patreon donations for this forum to have all of its running costs financially secured.

    Community members who help us out will receive badges that give them several different benefits, including the removal of all advertisements in this forum, but donations from non-members are also extremely appreciated.

    Please click here for further information, or here to directly visit our Patreon donations page.
  • Please click here for information about a large petition to help children in need.
Status
Not open for further replies.

CloverDragon03

He/Him
VS Battles
Calculation Group
13,229
21,048
Hi, hello. It's been a while since I've done a Black Clover revisions, and that's due to a variety of factors. However, that's not important. What is important is the subject of this CRT, which is something I've been formulating for some time now.

As a number of you are probably aware, Black Clover's speed ratings are massive right now, reaching Massively FTL+ speeds, specifically up to hundreds of thousands of times the speed of light. Very impressive, for sure... Except, I don't believe it to be accurate at all. In short, this speed rating has nothing to support it beyond a usage of multipliers that isn't actually accurate to how they're shown in the series, in conjunction with the fact that their magnitude does not match the minimal evidence given for applying these multipliers to speed.

Note: Do NOT turn this into a discussion about Attack Potency. The AP buffs are far more supported within the story, and this discussion is strictly about speed.

Let's begin...

Why is Black Clover's speed so high?

So, let's begin with the million dollar question: What exactly got Black Clover's speed to such a high rating to begin with? Well, this seems to stem from three key factors:
  1. When characters receive boosts to their magic, they appear to speed up as well. To draw an example, Yami was being consistently outsped by 80% Dante despite keeping up with 60% Dante prior. There are tons of examples of this, but this one is the easiest to conceptualize due to the blatant percentage jump, in my opinion.
  2. Zora’s Trap Magic is stated to double the speed and power of spells it sends back
  3. Later, Asta refers to this as “doubling the magic” itself, which Zora does not refute
Combined, these three points make the case that boosts to magic provide that exact boost to both attack power and speed. A 2x boost to magic is a 2x boost to both AP and speed. This also means that someone with 2x more magic than someone else is both 2x stronger than them and 2x faster than them. The attack power part is something more supported, but speed...

Well, let's get into the problems with it.

Problems with Black Clover's Speed Scaling

As can be surmised from the title of this CRT, this method of speed scaling carries many, significant problems that result in this scaling being very inflated. I'll be going through these one by one.

1. Zora's Trap Magic

As Zora's Trap Magic is a key part of this scaling, I feel it's appropriate to tackle this first. The main point of argumentation is this:

"Zora's Counter Traps double magic, as said by Asta. Zora also never refutes this, despite knowing his own magic better than anyone. Therefore, doubling magic = doubling AP and speed"

I never understood this, because in the context of the scene, they're literally in the heat of the moment. Asta and Zora were arguing about whether they'd escape or help Mereoleona after she stayed behind to fight a group of elves. So basically, not exactly the time to be going the equivalent of "well ackshually 🤓 ".

In addition, Mimosa specifically refers to its power and speed rather than the magic itself. That is to say, there was no reference to any change in the quantity of the magic, despite magic detection being Mimosa's specialty.

Overall, the evidence used to equate "doubling magic" to "doubling both attack power and speed" is very flimsy, which is in stark contrast to the massive multiplier stacking being done. And, as per the Multipliers page, this is pretty damning:

If multiple multipliers are to be stacked, that are used upon each other, the evidence for the end result is equal to the total multiplier applied to the best feat. That means that if, for example, a character has a times 10 multiplier and later on gets another times 50 multiplier, than the evidence necessary to use both multipliers to get a statistic, is like that of a times 500 multiplier, as the best feat would be increased by a factor of 500 in that case.

Going by our multipliers, the highest speed rating is 12000x higher than the calc it's scaling from. This is massively disproportionate to the solidity of the evidence in such a multiplier stack's favor.

With that addressed, the other point to note is the fact that characters get faster when they get magic boosts... One problem, though. There's a difference between "getting faster to an unknown degree" and "getting faster to the same degree that you get stronger." With Zora's stuff addressed, this is incredibly flimsy, as the fact that characters speed up when they get magic boosts doesn't inherently mean the boost is the same as the power boost - to say nothing of spells that focus on boosting speed, such as Reinforcement Magic: Leg Strength Boost.

2. Inconsistencies with this Scaling

So, when this multiplier stacking was accepted, it was deemed that there were no inconsistencies with it, thus making it reasonable to implement this. However, as I've recently found, this is actually not the case... at all, actually. I will go ahead and list off examples of these inconsistencies:
These examples showcase evidence against the consistency of this multiplier stacking, and on top of the very lackluster evidence in favor of it to begin with, I believe that this multiplier stacking should be removed.

The only multiplier that will provide an equivalent boost to both AP and speed will be Zora's Trap Magic, as this is actually directly stated.


So the multipliers are a bust. Where do the characters scale now?
So I've established that the multiplier stacking doesn't work. So, one must ask: Where will the characters scale now? Well, significantly lower, for one. But, more specifically, there are a few calcs I'd like to tackle when looking at this issue. They are as follows:

"But wait, there are two FTL+ calcs, right? Why don't we use those?"

I know this will be a common question, so I'd like to preemptively head off that first. Simply put: I don't believe they should be used, as they contradict Black Clover's narrative. To begin with, one of the calcs is the same Nozel feat I've linked here, so there's that. But also, Light Magic is treated within Black Clover as the ultimate magic in speed, establishing light speed as a hard cap for the verse for some time. I say some time because light speed does get surpassed later, but I'll get to that in a bit. In additon, there's the matter of Julius Novachrono. Julius admits inferiority in speed to Light Magic, which moves at the speed of light. Julius even admits that despite anticipating into the future via Time Magic, he can't catch Patry, who moves at the speed of light. As such, Julius cannot be scaled above light speed. The thing is, though... Julius, as the Wizard King, is superior to all the other Magic Knights at the time.

So, this is what I've come up with:
  • Base Asta (Eye of the Midnight Sun Arc) = 0.22c (Relativistic) -> Via Gauche's calc
  • Patry/Fana/Raia/Vetto/Base Asta (Witches Forest Arc) = 0.22c (Relativistic) -> Can blitz EMS Arc Base Asta
  • Base Asta (Royal Knights Exam Arc)/Mereoleona = 0.44c (Relativistic) -> Intercepted a doubled speed Elemental Quintet, which is > Raia's speed
  • Black Asta (Royal Knights Exam Arc) = 0.88c (Relativistic+) -> Blitzed Rage Power Langris, who is 2x faster than his base form due to intercepting his own base form's attacks reflected at double the speed; his base form is comparable to Asta's
  • Nozel/Julius = 0.89c (Relativistic+) -> Via Nozel's calc
  • Light Magic = 1c (Speed of Light) -> Stated multiple times to move at light speed
  • Demon Light Magic = 1.1c (FTL) -> Superior to Light Magic in all aspects, including speed
  • Lucifero = 1.78c (FTL) -> Matched the speed of a punch that was twice his casual speed, which is superior to that of Devil Union Asta, who is far superior to Elf Arc characters
And well... That's about it. This has been in the making for a hot minute, at least on my end, but I'm glad I was finally able to put this out. Thanks for reading, and happy debating!

Agree: 25 (@Serlock_Holmes, @Pedonar, @Manhattanth06, @DarkDragonMedeus, @Kachon123, @Mazdoesstuff, @Memonto_Mori, @KingTempest, @Excel616, @Arc7Kuroi, @Arkenis, @SuperStar, @Milly_Rocking_Bandit, @Tatsumi504, @Irineu, @Romeu08, @Maverick_Zero_X, @Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye, @DemonGodMitchAubin, @ssgengar, @Tamasensei123, @YeahhBoyee, @Damage3245, @Deceived3596, @LephyrTheRevanchist)
Disagree: 2 (@Arnoldstone18, @BlackAstaSenpai)
Neutral: 1 (@Nierre [leaning toward disagreeing])
 
Last edited:
At first glance the OP looks acceptable to me but I'll withhold final judgement until I see more responses in the thread and I can go through the new proposed ratings more closely when I'm able to focus on them.
I’ll hold off on marking you down as specifically agreeing/disagreeing/neutral then, if that’s alright with you
 
I heavily disagree for reasons I will get into later.

Way to drop this without a warning.
 
Anything I make by myself, I will always let you know, but alright, youre not obligated to let any of us know anyway.

I have a lot of school stuff so I wasn't prepared for this so I will respond to this when I can.
 
Clover Cooked. Count me as ConCuring with the OP.

It helps we downgraded Fairy Tail's multiplier-based FTL speed when it also contradicted the story so this makes sense.
 
In addition, Mimosa specifically refers to its power and speed rather than the magic itself. That is to say, there was no reference to any change in the quantity of the magic, despite magic detection being Mimosa's specialty.

Overall, the evidence used to equate "doubling magic" to "doubling both attack power and speed" is very flimsy, which is in stark contrast to the massive multiplier stacking being done. And, as per the Multipliers page, this is pretty damning:
Except the actual size of the doubled magic does increase as well. Indicating that there is an increase in the quantity of magic. Furthermore, when Zora doubles Langris' spatial magic, we can clearly see them being visibly larger than his. Langris then gets a magic power boost, making his own spatial magic larger, and allowing him to counter out the magic. Langris's Magic Power Grew, His spells grew, and were now capable of negging his own previously doubled spells. Actually supporting that Zora's traps do increase magic quantity.
r point to note is the fact that characters get faster when they get magic boosts... One problem, though. There's a difference between "getting faster to an unknown degree" and "getting faster to the same degree that you get stronger." With Zora's stuff addressed, this is incredibly flimsy, as the fact that characters speed up when they get magic boosts doesn't inherently mean the boost is the same as the power boost - to say nothing of spells that focus on boosting speed, such as Reinforcement Magic: Leg Strength Boost.
The Leg Strength Boost Reinforcement magic is stated to be an increase in jumping distance. Jack uses it to jump over spells, and the heart team uses it to jump far distances.
2. Inconsistencies with this Scaling

So, when this multiplier stacking was accepted, it was deemed that there were no inconsistencies with it, thus making it reasonable to implement this. However, as I've recently found, this is actually not the case... at all, actually. I will go ahead and list off examples of these inconsistencies:
This seems to be a misrepresentation of what actually happened. Dante was in the middle of an invincibility complex, standing their tanking attacks from Jack who is both far superior to Magna's AP and has adaptation. He is choosing to let them hit to show off his superiority. Then, with the Ash shrouding the field, an attack goes through and hits Dante. Because Dante let the attack hit, just as he was letting all of the other attacks from Jack hit, nothing implies Magna's speed is comparable to Dante's. It was in Dante's character, especially after the sorcery science buff, to let attacks hit him.

As for Mermaid Noelle, I don't see how she is merely "matching" 50/51% Vanica here. She is clearly superior in speed. Noelle going from faster than 50% Vanica, to comparable in speed to the higher % is just more support for the power/speed connection.

I don't think them sneaking up on a clearly distracted Sally who is fighting Henry in his Raging Black Bull form does anything to imply that she didn't get 10x faster. In the final image, it doesn't even show that she notices what's going on until after it's happening.


I know this will be a common question, so I'd like to preemptively head off that first. Simply put: I don't believe they should be used, as they contradict Black Clover's narrative. To begin with, one of the calcs is the same Nozel feat I've linked here, so there's that. But also, Light Magic is treated within Black Clover as the ultimate magic in speed, establishing light speed as a hard cap for the verse for some time. I say some time because light speed does get surpassed later, but I'll get to that in a bit. In additon, there's the matter of Julius Novachrono. Julius admits inferiority in speed to Light Magic, which moves at the speed of light. Julius even admits that despite anticipating into the future via Time Magic, he can't catch Patry, who moves at the speed of light. As such, Julius cannot be scaled above light speed. The thing is, though... Julius, as the Wizard King, is superior to all the other Magic Knights at the time.
The issue with this is that as stated in this CRT, magic power increases STILL does increase speed. However the argument is that it isn't a 1:1 increase. Julius is somehow faster than Nozel despite him facing against Dark Elf Patry who would be far faster than the Patry Julius fought. Base Patry < Elf Patry < Dark Elf Patry < Rage Amp Dark Elf Patry??

Julius not only tagged Patry before saying this but also was not at full power and thus not full speed either.

We've already gone over this in other threads. Not only was Julius not full power against Patry, but he was likely manipulated by Lucius in order to lose and follow the plan. As this is what Lucius confirmed did to Julius in later arcs.

It makes far more sense that light magic is the fastest element in the verse, but other factors like magic power can make other elements faster.


So, this is what I've come up with:
  • Base Asta (Eye of the Midnight Sun Arc) = 0.22c (Relativistic) -> Via Gauche's calc
  • Patry/Fana/Raia/Base Asta (Witches Forest Arc) = 0.22c (Relativistic) -> Can blitz EMS Arc Base Asta
  • Base Asta (Royal Knights Exam Arc) = 0.44c (Relativistic) -> Intercepted a doubled speed Elemental Quintet, which is > Raia's speed
  • Black Asta (Royal Knights Exam Arc) = 0.88c (Relativistic+) -> Blitzed Rage Power Langris, who is 2x faster than his base form due to intercepting his own base form's attacks reflected at double the speed; his base form is comparable to Asta's
  • Yami/Vetto/Nozel/Julius = 0.89c (Relativistic+) -> Via Yami's/Nozel's calcs
  • Light Magic = 1c (Speed of Light) -> Stated multiple times to move at light speed
  • Demon Light Magic = 1.1c (FTL) -> Superior to Light Magic in all aspects, including speed
  • Lucifero = 1.78c (FTL) -> Matched the speed of a punch that was twice his casual speed, which is superior to that of Devil Union Asta, who is far superior to Elf Arc characters

Will address this later.




"But wait, why are Fana and Raia so far below Vetto in speed? Aren't they comparable?"

That's the neat part: they aren't. Asta straight up says that Vetto is faster than Fana, and Fana herself has no feats making her comparable to Vetto in speed, so she'll simply be scaled above Patry. Raia will also be the same, due to not having much in the way of speed feats, and actually being constantly outsped by Mereoleona. Raia even likens Mereoleona's reactions to Vetto's, which is reaction speed and all but hey, it's better than nothing.
Except that he only said that about Base Fana. Once Fana powered up with her Third Eye she actually swooped him and sent Asta flying away.


TLDR:
Zora's traps do increase quantity of magic. Which runs counter to the main reasoning for the CRT. The counterpoints do not show what they are saying. Julius being the top magic knight but getting outperformed by magic knights acts as reasoning for him being nerfed (on top of him already not at full power) and because of this much of Black Clover should NOT be capped at Light speed as the scaling does support that doubling magic power does double speed.
 
Last edited:
Except the actual size of the doubled magic does increase as well. Indicating that there is an increase in the quantity of magic. Furthermore, when Zora doubles Langris' spatial magic, we can clearly see them being visibly larger than his. Langris then gets a magic power boost, making his own spatial magic larger, and allowing him to counter out the magic. Langris's Magic Power Grew, His spells grew, and were now capable of negging his own previously doubled spells. Actually supporting that Zora's traps do increase magic quantity.
Nobody said that the magic doesn't increase. He said "the argument is doubled magic = doubled power & doubled speed, but nothing solid says the magic is doubled"
 
It shows there's an increase to magic. Regardless it has yet to show there's a multiplication of 2
But it is stated that he doubles magic. The argument in this CRT to counter that was that Zora didn't deny it because of the intensity of the situation. Not really a great argument, especially since it is contigent on the rest of the CRT, which isn't supported either.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top