Black Clover: Immense Speed Downgrade

[Xinsignia1]

Problems with Black Clover's Speed Scaling

As can be surmised from the title of this CRT, this method of speed scaling carries many, significant problems that result in this scaling being very inflated. I'll be going through these one by one.

1. Zora's Trap Magic

As Zora's Trap Magic is a key part of this scaling, I feel it's appropriate to tackle this first. The main point of argumentation is this:

"Zora's Counter Traps double magic, as said by Asta. Zora also never refutes this, despite knowing his own magic better than anyone. Therefore, doubling magic = doubling AP and speed"

I never understood this, because in the context of the scene, they're literally in the heat of the moment. Asta and Zora were arguing about whether they'd escape or help Mereoleona after she stayed behind to fight a group of elves. So basically, not exactly the time to be going the equivalent of "well ackshually ".

In addition, Mimosa specifically refers to its power and speed rather than the magic itself. That is to say, there was no reference to any change in the quantity of the magic, despite magic detection being Mimosa's specialty.

Overall, the evidence used to equate "doubling magic" to "doubling both attack power and speed" is very flimsy, which is in stark contrast to the massive multiplier stacking being done. And, as per the Multipliers page, this is pretty damning:

I disagree, because I'm not too sure about your statement. If you recall during the Lucifero fight, when Zora briefly intervened, Lucifero went to punch Asta with a fist of condensed magical power, but Zora jumped in the way and took the punch with his trap magic, he stated all of All of the magic he just got hit with goes to his fist, and that he's going to pay Lucifero back double and to be clear in the raws specifically used the term 「魔力 maryoku」 which means magical power so when Zora said "magic" in the viz translations, that was actually a mistranslation. Magic power is always associated with the scaler quanity of magic, magical power is how you measure magic not 「魔法 Mahō」 which means "magic" or "spell" If you take a look at the raws with Mimosa, she specifically says「魔法 Mahō」 which is "magic" or "spell" so Zora the creator of the spell affirms the magical power is being doubled, he doubled the magical power he took from Lucifero's hit, and used that doubled power to punch him back in an attempt to protect an injured Asta. His traps doubles the speed + force, while Mimosa was referring to the spells, which are powered by magical power hence why they grow proportionally spells are refined magical power. So doubling it's quantity should also double not just force, but also speed, so it should still scale proportionally.

 

[Nierre]

The Zora argument in the OP is incredibly weak imo.

The whole, "in the moment" part doesn't matter at all. Zora and Asta are arguing about whether to help Mereo or to escape. Asta wants to help Mereo, and mentions Zora's ability to double magic. Zora doesn't retort this because Asta isn't wrong. Zora's ability is to reflect magic essentially but with double the force and speed, which is recontextualized by Mimosa's inner dialogue, which is in the OP. Especially since she's a specialist in Mana Detection, as was also mentioned in the OP. So yes, it most definitely doubles speed and AP.

Supposedly, 100% Dante is 500x faster than Magna despite being tagged by him here

Bad example. He purposely tanked Jack's attack earlier despite being far stronger and faster in every right. He was literally just tanking attacks because he could afford to, not that it's by any means "inconsistent"

An amped Mermaid Form Valkyrie Dress Noelle matches 50-51% Vanica's speed

As for Mermaid Noelle, I don't see how she is merely "matching" 50/51% Vanica here. She is clearly superior in speed. Noelle going from faster than 50% Vanica, to comparable in speed to the higher % is just more support for the power/speed connection.

As BlackAstaSenpai said, Noelle was quite literally just faster in that scan. I don't know if there are other scans to support your argument here, but Noelle literally "blitzes" (not really but just saying that to get my point across), 50%/51% Vanica, and seamlessly dodges her attacks. As BAS said, if anything this would be more support that the higher the % the faster the speed, because once Vanica reached 65%-67% (as is in the OP), they were clashing.

Gauche, Grey, Gordon, and Sally are all comparable in speed to one another. Sally then boosts her magic tenfold, but doesn't react to Grey changing her magic's properties until after it's already happened

I don't think them sneaking up on a clearly distracted Sally who is fighting Henry in his Raging Black Bull form does anything to imply that she didn't get 10x faster. In the final image, it doesn't even show that she notices what's going on until after it's happening.

Once again, as BAS said, she didn't even see them coming lol. They literally snuck up on her.

Going by our multipliers, the highest speed rating is 12000x higher than the calc it's scaling from. This is massively disproportionate to the solidity of the evidence in such a multiplier stack's favor.

So the multipliers are a bust. Where do the characters scale now?
So I've established that the multiplier stacking doesn't work.

While I do believe that that's a MASSIVE ass speed rating, and I'm not too sure how supported that is in Black Clover, I do not think you've effectively debunked nor accurately addressed the "issues" in the multiplier. I don't believe any of the "inconsistencies" you've laid out are actual inconsistencies, but instead clearly out of context panels that changes what actually transpired in the scans that you sent to debunk said multiplier. So count me as disagree.


Outside of the OP, however, on my on time, I'd like to actually take a look, at how accurate and consistent the speed rating actually is because I honestly and frankly find it hard to believe that they're THAT fast. But the only reason why I haven't done anything is because I'm terribly busy, and Black Clover is at the very very least of my priorities.

 

[CloverDragon03]

Okay, so for the Zora stuff, even if there's a quantity increase, it's never stated outside of heat of the moment statements/thoughts that barely mean anything. Like I said, Mimosa didn't even make note of a doubling in magic quantity despite magic detection being her specialty.

This seems to be a misrepresentation of what actually happened. Dante was in the middle of an invincibility complex, standing their tanking attacks from Jack who is both far superior to Magna's AP and has adaptation. He is choosing to let them hit to show off his superiority. Then, with the Ash shrouding the field, an attack goes through and hits Dante. Because Dante let the attack hit, just as he was letting all of the other attacks from Jack hit, nothing implies Magna's speed is comparable to Dante's. It was in Dante's character, especially after the sorcery science buff, to let attacks hit him.

Gonna save the Zora stuff for later but uh... No, Dante did not let Magna hit him. Dude didn't even know what was going on. It was only when Magna challenged Dante that he allowed him to hit him, implying he didn't simply allow it before.

So no, I believe I've accurately represented what happened.

As for Mermaid Noelle, I don't see how she is merely "matching" 50/51% Vanica here. She is clearly superior in speed. Noelle going from faster than 50% Vanica, to comparable in speed to the higher % is just more support for the power/speed connection.

Noelle's evading attacks, yes, but that's about it. That doesn't inherently mean she's faster than her. The two even make similar movements to clash evenly here, indicating relativity in speed.

I don't think them sneaking up on a clearly distracted Sally who is fighting Henry in his Raging Black Bull form does anything to imply that she didn't get 10x faster. In the final image, it doesn't even show that she notices what's going on until after it's happening.

1. "Clearly distracted." Bro, even Rades reacted to her, and he's allegedly 10x slower than Sally right now. And also, there was literally a bunch of Grey's coming in from above Sally (or adjacent to her, hard to tell) to change her magic. You're really telling me she wouldn't have noticed any of that? Sorry, but I'm not convinced.
2. If Dark Magic Item Sally is relative to the Raging Black Bull, that's still damning given that Gauche, Grey, and Gordon can perfectly react to the latter despite it being allegedly 10x faster than them

The issue with this is that as stated in this CRT, magic power increases STILL does increase speed. However the argument is that it isn't a 1:1 increase. Julius is somehow faster than Nozel despite him facing against Dark Elf Patry who would be far faster than the Patry Julius fought. Base Patry < Elf Patry < Dark Elf Patry < Rage Amp Dark Elf Patry??

You misunderstand. Dark Elf Patry is only FTL with Demon Light Magic by my scaling. Otherwise he's Rel+ for keeping up with Black Asta and Spirit Dive Yuno. So Demon Light Magic (1.1c) > Light Magic (1c) > Julius > Nozel = 0.89c

There's no getting around Julius admitting inferiority in speed to Light Magic several times

Julius not only tagged Patry before saying this but also was not at full power and thus not full speed either.

Again... In the same sequence where he admits his magic is slower than Patry's Light Magic. You can tag someone and still be slower than them

We've already gone over this in other threads. Not only was Julius not full power against Patry, but he was likely manipulated by Lucius in order to lose and follow the plan. As this is what Lucius confirmed did to Julius in later arcs.

The Lucius stuff is theorycrafting unless definitively proven otherwise

Except that he only said that about Base Fana. Once Fana powered up with her Third Eye she actually swooped him and sent Asta flying away.

I know that. I don't see the point

 

[YeahhBoyee]

I appreciate the effort of this post let me add my own thoughts here tho;

First Nozel is not relativistic, he clears FTL easily even in Elf Arc. He defeated (or rather no-diffed) Dark Patri, who was able to hit Yuno who'd just dodged like 1000 light speed attacks with ease. Images/explanations in link.

Also noteworthy the scaling gets out of hand from Elf Arc onwards, the gap between say Dante and Lucifero is already insane despite Dante having partial powers of Lucifero.

Dante already clears FTL at like what 20% or whatever he started with when he no-diffed all Black Bulls and was fighting Asta. Every % gives him a massive boost in speed and power, its way more than 1% but we don't have an exact number (seen here). At 80% Dante was overpowering Yami who is easily FTL at the start of the series without Mana Zone which greatly buffs reaction speed. Dante is at 80% form when the first Supreme Devils appear. He then gets perception blitzed by the first devils to come out of the gate. But wait Nacht could keep up with them when he stalled them... until he realized that they were keeping him alive because he was fun to play with and was never taken seriously. There's a massive gap between Dark Triad at 80% and Supreme Devils and they're stronger than 100% forms as well (with exception of Devil Zenon who is basically a Supreme Devil)

So we've established Lilith and Naamath are way way stronger than the Triad including 80% Dante who could keep up with two FTL characters even in weaker % stages. Then Asta comes in contact with the Supreme Devils with his new form, Devil Union.

He BLITZES AND KILLS Lilith in one hit with 0 difficulty.

Naamath powers up and becomes at least 3x more powerful (Nacht says their fusion is multiplicative and its more than 1+1)

Asta still beats that three-times-more-powerful Supreme Devil in like 20 seconds with ease, in the time he had left in Devil Union.

Later, Asta in Devil Union form charges at Lucifero and this happens.

Keep in mind 20% Dante is already FTL due to being able to keep up with Post-TS Asta and Yami, (and by keeping up i mean embarrassing them in a 1v1) who are both FTL by being able to keep up with Light users moving at the speed of light, evidenced here (panel from Chapter 50, Yami vs Patri).

So i agree with you that Lucifero is FTL, but i don't know about 1.78x, he's definitely multiple times the speed of Light given how much faster than Dark Patri he is.

And then Zetten comes in which is supposed to be a 100x or something increase in speed and power via Ki manipulation so that's a thing to account for as well.

 

[CloverDragon03]

@Nierre Most of what you said has been addressed in my most recent reply just now. Figured that may be of interest

 

[Nierre]

I'll take a look

 

[KingTempest]

I appreciate the effort of this post let me add my own thoughts here tho;

First Nozel is not relativistic, he clears FTL easily even in Elf Arc. He defeated (or rather no-diffed) Dark Patri, who was able to hit Yuno who'd just dodged like 1000 light speed attacks with ease. Images/explanations in link.

The attack you linked isn't accepted to be lightspeed. It's accepted that only the super ray is lightspeed, aka the average move is slower than light.
Everything else you said is meh

 

[Tamasensei123]

Agree

 

[Harith0cell]

Op make more sense agree

 

[Nierre]

Okay, so for the Zora stuff, even if there's a quantity increase, it's never stated outside of heat of the moment statements/thoughts that barely mean anything. Like I said, Mimosa didn't even make note of a doubling in magic quantity despite magic detection being her specialty.

Gonna save the Zora stuff for later but

Not sure if you plan on making a more elaborate argument about the Zora point, but I don't think this is a sufficient rebuttal at all. Just because they're in the middle of an argument or in the middle of a dire situation, does not mean they don't mean anything.

Like I said, all Asta said is that Zora "doubles magic and bounces it back".... which is correct. He didn't correct Asta, because he's not wrong.
Mimosa is literally internalizing his ability. As someone specializing in Mana Detection, I don't think "being in the heat of the moment" is a great argument to discredit her, since she's a Magic Knight. She's supposed to be able to do these things while in the heat of the moment. That is her job. You wouldn't go around discrediting character statements just because they're in a battle or war, especially if it's coming from a credible source.

No, Dante did not let Magna hit him. Dude didn't even know what was going on. It was only when Magna challenged Dante that he allowed him to hit him, implying he didn't simply allow it before.

Taking a look at the sequence of events in the chapter myself, you're right. He saw the fireball, and it hit him square in the face. As you said he didn't know what was going on, and the fireball clearly caught him off guard - but this argument it flimsier, so take that as a grain of salt ig. So I'll be neutral on this point.

Noelle's evading attacks, yes, but that's about it. That doesn't inherently mean she's faster than her. The two even make similar movements to clash evenly here, indicating relativity in speed.

To me, it looks like Noelle is faster, but Vanica uses an AoE attack in close range, making it hard for Noelle to outright dodge it like she did for the other attacks, so she just blocks(?) it with her lance.

1. "Clearly distracted." Bro, even Rades reacted to her, and he's allegedly 10x slower than Sally right now. And also, there was literally a bunch of Grey's coming in from above Sally (or adjacent to her, hard to tell) to change her magic. You're really telling me she wouldn't have noticed any of that? Sorry, but I'm not convinced.
2. If Dark Magic Item Sally is relative to the Raging Black Bull, that's still damning given that Gauche, Grey, and Gordon can perfectly react to the latter despite it being allegedly 10x faster than them

I honestly don't really care to argue on this specific multiplier, this scene honestly confused the **** out of me and I don't really care to read the context to figure out what's going on. So I'm neutral on this point ig.


Overall I still disagree, on the multipliers being "inconsistent" because to me, you haven't proven that they are. However, I am aware that Standards are strict and yada yada yada (i got bullied on the cord) so count me as neutral, leaning towards disagreeing

 

[YeahhBoyee]

The attack you linked isn't accepted to be lightspeed. It's accepted that only the super ray is lightspeed, aka the average move is slower than light.

mate dark patri literally has a better version of that spell and used it on asta.

he uses it again here and nozel blocks it easily, then he gets blitzed by the cage, then the elf tries to attack nozel and all of his attacks get parried directly back to him

Everything else you said is meh

You can disagree with the scaling thats one thing, but nozel definitely 100% for sure no doubt is FTL

For what its worth i looked over black clover speed section in the time and i agree it doesnt seem right and could use a rework and prbly some downgrades. like magna is shown as FTL in Royal Exam arc because he kept up with Asta but that was due to hax of his fireballs disappearing/becoming invisible. Definitely some changes in order.

 

[KingTempest]

mate dark patri literally has a better version of that spell and used it on asta.

yeah, that's FTL

he uses it again here and nozel blocks it easily,

Calculated relativistic+, the calc is in the OP

Nozel Intercepts Light: 0.89c (Relativistic+)

So yeah

then he gets blitzed by the cage, then the elf tries to attack nozel and all of his attacks get parried directly back to him

All those attacks are slower than light

You can disagree with the scaling thats one thing, but nozel definitely 100% for sure no doubt is FTL

Nope

 

[YeahhBoyee]

Calculated relativistic+, the calc is in the OP

I saw the calc but the problem is, you calced Dark Patri's beam at light speed; 299000km/s

However it was already light speed in regular form and Dark Patri is way faster than regular Patri. As i linked Yuno could easily dodge basically 2 Patris (with Rhya copying him) casting Light magic at the same time but when Dark Patri cast it he got injured when attempting to dodge via the same Mana Zone technique. The super ray Dark Patri cast was also upgraded from the regular super ray as mentioned in previous reply so it should not be calced at speed of light.

But hey i just wanted to give my take, im not going to formally fight your calc, just wanted to leave a comment explaining why i think Nozel is FTL, and that i do agree with many of ur other points

 

[CloverDragon03]

Demon Light Magic is FTL, yes, but to an unknown degree so light speed's kinda the bare minimum we have to go with here. Nozel is basically at least Relativistic+

 

[YeahhBoyee]

Demon Light Magic is FTL, yes, but to an unknown degree so light speed's kinda the bare minimum we have to go with here. Nozel is basically at least Relativistic+

Ok if its a intentional low-ball that's different I understand that, because we don't know by how much faster than light anything past Patri is.

 

[YeahhBoyee]

Also you can put me in for Agree overall @CloverDragon03

Characters being 100k times the speed of light is ridiculous, since there's no solid scaling possible past FTL unless you want to get into very questionable high-balls like saying Asta moved in stopped time when its more likely that it had a limited effect on him due to being surrounded by Anti-magic. And also Light magic is still regarded as top tier magic and just blitzed+one shot Jack. Who for some reason is Massively FTL what could be the reasoning?

Massively FTL+ (Tagged 80% Dante), higher with Severing Magic (Gets faster the more he slashes)

Tagged 80% Dante? Well, looking at the feat i just somehow get a feeling that Dante was not trying to dodge the attacks LOL

 

[BlackAstaSenpai]

Okay, so for the Zora stuff, even if there's a quantity increase, it's never stated outside of heat of the moment statements/thoughts that barely mean anything. Like I said, Mimosa didn't even make note of a doubling in magic quantity despite magic detection being her specialty.

I will try and respond to this during the weekend.

I will say that I still disagree with pretty much everything, except I do think that, according to the standards of the site, the 100,000c+ scaling could be excessive.

What I disagree with is the LEVEL of the downgrade, and the inconsistencies. As this leads to things like Demon Light Magic being faster than Devil Union Asta in the scaling chain.

 

[CloverDragon03]

What I disagree with is the LEVEL of the downgrade, and the inconsistencies. As this leads to things like Demon Light Magic being faster than Devil Union Asta in the scaling chain.

If there is a link between DU Asta and Demon Light Magic scaling-wise, I'm happy to hear it (DU Asta would then be >1.1c and Lucifero >2.2c) but I could not find one for the life of me

 

[KingTempest]

Just now noticing, I'm pretty sure the wiki wouldn't allow it to be 1.1c off of that. I forgot where I saw it but someone was like "FTL could be 1.0001c, 1.00000000001c, etc. FTL is just FTSOL."
So it'd upscale from SOL but be unquantifiably superior

 

[SunDaGamer]

Didn't the first light speed downgrade accept Ray of Divine Punishment and the movement spell being lightspeed? There's a FTL+ calc that brought up the fact that Dark Elf Patry's Light Swords of Conviction were keeping up with his movement spell.

 

[Mr.Cinos15]

Just now noticing, I'm pretty sure the wiki wouldn't allow it to be 1.1c off of that. I forgot where I saw it but someone was like "FTL could be 1.0001c, 1.00000000001c, etc. FTL is just FTSOL."
So it'd upscale from SOL but be unquantifiably superior

Yup, any minute increase from the SOL can be considered FTL. Even a singular m/s increase from SOL would be FTL.

 

[Damage3245]

Just now noticing, I'm pretty sure the wiki wouldn't allow it to be 1.1c off of that. I forgot where I saw it but someone was like "FTL could be 1.0001c, 1.00000000001c, etc. FTL is just FTSOL."
So it'd upscale from SOL but be unquantifiably superior

Yeah, KingTempest is correct here. It'd be baseline FTL.

And having read through the thread now, I'm fine with being listed as Agree @CloverDragon03

 

[CloverDragon03]

Yeah, KingTempest is correct here. It'd be baseline FTL.

Fair enough

 

[SunDaGamer]

Didn't the first light speed downgrade accept Ray of Divine Punishment and the movement spell being lightspeed? There's a FTL+ calc that brought up the fact that Dark Elf Patry's Light Swords of Conviction were keeping up with his movement spell.

Can we get a consensus on whether or not the Demon Light Swords would scale to SoL?

 

[ShigarakiShimura]

It seems like even the people that "disagree" with the post, only disagree with them being just baseline ftl. They don't seem to have a problem or any arguments against the speed downgrade itself, which is the main point of this. We can argue the exact speed later.

Also, you can put me under agree.

 

[Epsilon_R]

With the arguments brought up by BAS, Zora doubling magic should be undeniable.

I also think that's unreasonable to say Dante was blitzed by Magna. Not only it doesn't look like a blitz, it also contradicts the narrative itself of Magna being vastly inferior to the top dogs, same narrative that has Julius as the strongest. You can't have the cake and eat it.

Now the multiplier that comes from Magna/Dante, regardless of if a blitz occurred or not, should still be removed as it is the main reason to the characters reaching MFTL speeds and above.

 

[Epsilon_R]

Oh and speaking of the narrative, Julius is said to be the strongest Magic Knight, but nothing says anything about him being the fastest other than the weird conjecture some people are making. Heck, does anything says a Wizard King has to be the fastest to gain his title?

It's not outright stated anywhere, and you have characters who literally proves the opposite. Like, I don’t need to make a calc to notice that Julius needs teleportation and precog to dodge Patry's swords when Yuno could effortlessly dodge double the amount of them. Something is definitely wrong with Julius being the fastest here.

 

[CloverDragon03]

Well first off, Yuno was only dodging the swords so effortlessly due to a specific Mana Zone technique. Also, didn't Julius outspeed the captains in the LN to begin with?

 

[CloverDragon03]

Oh yeah, and the whole argument about the narrative falls apart because in the case of Julius, we know his speed is below the speed of light based on said narrative (and he outsped the captains in the LN). The narrative about Magna doesn't say anything about speed, just that he's weaker than everyone else, which is an AP thing.

 

[Arkenis]

Well first off, Yuno was only dodging the swords so effortlessly due to a specific Mana Zone technique. Also, didn't Julius outspeed the captains in the LN to begin with?

Here is the thread comment that brought it up https://vsbattles.com/threads/black-clover-lightspeed-downgrade.151784/post-5645789
just showing for those who want it

 

[Epsilon_R]

Well first off, Yuno was only dodging the swords so effortlessly due to a specific Mana Zone technique.

and said technique is actually shown to be more efficient against the double of these than Julius's even with time acceleration, teleportation and precog. He was even using Mana Zone as well so there's no argument to be made, he should have been faster than Mana Zone Yuno. This goes against the logic of Julius being faster than everyone and everything in the kingdom.

Also, didn't Julius outspeed the captains in the LN to begin with?

First of all, I don’t read the novels nor do I have the scans of what you're talking about. Ask BAS

Second, even if he did outspeed the captains, I'm pretty sure this are takes place well before the elf arc. I don't see how that can be used as a reasoning that he's faster than their future versions.

Third, him blitzing the captains has nothing do with Spirit Yuno? Unless he was there, and fully transformed and all.

Where is the statement or the narrative bit that puts Julius as the fastest anyway?

Oh yeah, and the whole argument about the narrative falls apart because in the case of Julius, we know his speed is below the speed of light based on said narrative (and he outsped the captains in the LN). The narrative about Magna doesn't say anything about speed, just that he's weaker than everyone else, which is an AP thing.

And you see chapters later, Base Asta keeping up with Magna. Magna is clearly not meant to be that fast

 

[Epsilon_R]

Here is the thread comment that brought it up https://vsbattles.com/threads/black-clover-lightspeed-downgrade.151784/post-5645789
just showing for those who want it

Thanks

After looking at it, a few things are clear:
1- Yuno was there, but in his base form.
2- It wasn't really a blitz. He just stopped time
3- Since Yuno used Mana Skin but needed to get close to the guy to attack him (basically he doesn't have MZ). The scene takes place before the Exam. So at the very least quite a few days before the elf arc

So my point still stands

 

[CloverDragon03]

And you see chapters later, Base Asta keeping up with Magna. Magna is clearly not meant to be that fast

When does Base Asta keep up with Magna?

 

[CloverDragon03]

Thanks

After looking at it, a few things are clear:
1- Yuno was there, but in his base form.
2- It wasn't really a blitz. He just stopped time
3- Since Yuno used Mana Skin but needed to get close to the guy to attack him (basically he doesn't have MZ). The scene takes place before the Exam. So at the very least quite a few days before the elf arc

So my point still stands

It doesn't exactly stand because Yami is still Rel+ at the time, which makes Julius Rel+ (but below light speed because of reasons mentioned already)

 

[Epsilon_R]

When does Base Asta keep up with Magna?

They ran across the castle

 

[CloverDragon03]

That's not combat speed...

 

[Epsilon_R]

It doesn't exactly stand because Yami is still Rel+ at the time, which makes Julius Rel+ (but below light speed because of reasons mentioned already)

So you completely misunderstood my point then...

My point is that Julius isn't the fastest because of antifeats and lack of statements and even feats.

Yuno outperforming Julius = antifeat for the Fastest Mage Julius meta

Julius not stated to be the fastest = lack of statements


I've never even mentioned the speed rating once so far so Idek how you could think I'm arguing for FTL Julius or anything. I just disagree with him being the fastest, I literally cannot make it any clearer

 

[Epsilon_R]

That's not combat speed...

Yet you're assuming his punches (all he did against Dante) are as fast as his fireball throwing speed...

And again, I said I agreed with removing the Magna multiplier, you're just beating a dead horse.

 

[CloverDragon03]

Even if Julius isn't the fastest, what does that prove scaling-wise? He's still faster than a number of the Rel+ characters and all that exist beyond that are unquantifiable speed amps

 

[CloverDragon03]

Yet you're assuming his punches (all he did against Dante) are as fast as his fireball throwing speed...

Because either both are combat speed or both are attack speed. Regardless, they're the same kind of speed